Next shotgun

For an all around "fun" factor I picked the 1887. That would be a FUN gun!

Since I don't feel your last post was as insulting, I'll proceed with my rebuttal.

Nothing about those rules contradicts anything I posted.

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You had said:

I hope you are careful to check where components of things (as well as chemicals that make those components or even the entire product come from) that you buy are made as well.

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A company using Chinese produced components can in certain circumstances still label the end product made in the USA and yet there would be money going to China.

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FTC guidlines for "made in USA" labels are "all or virtually all made in USA". Well they don't give an exact percentage of weight/cost/whatever for every item that would constitute "virtually all", labels I see stating "assembled in USA of USA and imported components" indicate that companies are abiding by it. If I find myself looking at one of those items, I first research the "imported components" bit before buying.

A company that uses raw materials sourced from a Chinese company to produce a US made product could comply in certain circumstances. You would be sending money to China.

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And that is unavoidable in many instances. Also, companies are pretty tight lipped about that sort of thing. I have to accept that any steel in a modern product most likely came from there in raw form, since we no longer have operational mills here. I hate it, but it's life. However, I consider a product made of materials refined and turned into parts here to be US made. If I make something from steel stock, I consider it hand made, even though I did not produce the steel from ore I mined and alloy it myself.

If you do not check for all of these things before making a purchase you cannot tell me that you aren't buying Chinese stuff. Sorry but that is a fact. I also highly doubt you are giving the necessary diligence to track companies, parent companies, and their various owners to see if their are Chinese interest benefiting from your purchase.

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I check it to the extent that the information is available. That's the best one can do, and one helluva lot more than most would. If people had cared more about it over the past 4 decades, I wouldn't have to work so hard at it now. And you don't having any cause to base your "doubt (I am) giving the necessary diligence". Stop making assumptions about me and my level of conviction on this matter. You have no right.

Again this is just manufacturing. What banks and other finance industry companies do you do business? China has notable ownership in some of the big ones. Doing business with these companies is sending money to China.

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My banking is all done through a locally owned bank right here in Colorado. My mortgage was sold from another such small firm to a large bank, I had no control over that.

Just be aware of all the avenues whereby your dollars can go to China.

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I am, it pisses me off, and I avoid it whenever possible.

I'll give you that it's virtually impossible to live a quasi-normal life and not have at least some of your money going to China in this day and age. But for you to say "I bet you buy so much stuff that is "chicom" that it is not even funny. " is an unfair accusation, especially considering the tremendous effort I make to avoid doing so. And having said it in such a disparaging way was totally uncalled for.

I couldn't help but notice that you made no mention of Chinese owned US based companies (often with US sounding names) making things here. I believe it is something like 22% of South Carolina corps have foreign owners. China isn't the top foreign owner (I want to say that Germany is but I'd have to look it up to be sure) but they are up there and last I saw were ascending the list.

"I bet you buy so much stuff that is "chicom" that it is not even funny. " is an unfair accusation, especially considering the tremendous effort I make to avoid doing so. And having said it in such a disparaging way was totally uncalled for.

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Its not really an "accusation." It was not a disparaging statement either. It was simply a statement that is rooted in the fact that the world is a global economy and there are links that most people are not even aware of. Further unless one is researching every company, subsidiary, parent etc and who owns stakes in them and where they get every, not just the vast majority of, component and source material then they are undoubtedly. Considering the time and effort it would take one to do so I have a hard time imagining any remotely normal person doing so. The shear amount of time and effort researching it all for every single purchase one makes is my only reason for doubting that anyone who leads a normal life doesn't do it.

Like I said if it makes you feel good keep it up. In the broad scheme of all one's daily purchases and business I'm not going to lose much sleep over a shotgun that retails at $187 (last time I priced one). I also don't think that trade with China is a per se bad thing. Further if I were to be overly concerned with balancing power against China I would trying to look at the relative gains for each country in any given transaction not merely whether China makes some profit. In International relations its all about the relative gains vis a vis one another. For a very simplistic example: if buying some product got china a +1 but the US a +2 buying it would be still be fine because the US makes a better relative gain even if China makes some absolute gain.

Anyways we've long departed the point thread, the OP can give whatever weight he sees fit to the fact that two of the shotguns on his list are from china and one is from Russia who in the last couple years has been rather hostile to US foreign interests and active sought to thwart the US on several big issues. Best of luck with your efforts vis a vis avoiding things with a China connection.

I give up. It's obvious at this point that you're either just trying to ruffle my feathers for amusement, or being a jerk for no good reason.

To keep it OT:

Buy whatever you want, understanding that if you buy one of the chinese guns, you're both getting inferior quality and directly, knowingly and indifferently sending money to a communist country that hates us.

Wow. Another thread destroyed by political commentary. The guy just wanted info on what shotgun to get.

Back on topic!:banghead:!!

Saiga 12 for the win!
When zombies sleep, they have nightmares about the S12! You can customize it to infinite and beyond if you like, or you can do a simple conversion and have one of he slickest boom sticks on he US market. For taking out and just dumping shells, hunting, making hoplophobe's cry, or drooling over it while watching tv, the S12 wins hands down!

understanding that if you buy one of the chinese guns, you're both getting inferior quality ...

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What first hand experience do you have with Norinco firearms to call them inferior quality? I've owned and/or shot a number of Norinco weapons and while they don't have the fit and finish of some weapons that I have paid a great deal more for they have all proven functional and durable and to be a very good buy for the money. Some I would consider to be superior quality to comparative products (e.g. Norinco 1911s). A hawk 982 will do its intended task just as well as say an 870 express.

Further, inferior is a comparative word. What are you saying they are inferior to? Since the only other product the OP is discussion is the S12 it would seem that you must be referencing it. If you've handled many NIB saigas they can be pretty rough weapons and a surprising number of them over the years have needed warranty work (all the two hole guns and others) or tuning to getting running right. S12 finishes are pretty poor (I own/have owned about over a dozen different saigas) generally and not very durable. Although the S12 can be built into a very fine gun I'm not sure I could truly say it is a superior quality gun to the above mentioned Norinco shotguns. I haven't sampled as wide a range on Norc shotguns as I have saigas but on at least some exemplars I have definitely seen nicer furniture, and better finishes. Siagas used to sell for about $300 and that is much more inline with what one is getting from the factory. They sell for $550 because they have no competition in the box mag fed shotgun market.

and directly, knowingly and indifferently sending money to a communist country that hates us.

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What if he opts to buy it used?

What first hand experience do you have with Norinco firearms to call them inferior quality? I've owned and/or shot a number of Norinco weapons and while they don't have the fit and finish of some weapons that I have paid a great deal more for they have all proven functional and durable and to be a very good buy for the money.

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First, fit and finish is a component of quality. I don't know any reasonable person who wouldn't agree. With items like guns, where aesthetics and function are both very important, there is a definite dichotomy in saying it doesn't have nice fit and finish but is good quality.

Secondly, what is or isn't a good value is very subjective.

Now, as far as my experience with them has been exclusively with other peoples, as I'd never buy one. The 1911's are on par with Armscor stuff, which is to say functionally acceptable but far from Kimber, COlt, DW or any reputable US maker. The SKS's are better than the Yugo's, but far from a Russkie. The shotguns I would say compare with Izhmash stuff; Functional, but very rough and generally ugly within their genre. The M1A knockoffs are pretty much garbage. Rough, innacurate and frequent jams.

Further, inferior is a comparative word. What are you saying they are inferior to? Since the only other product the OP is discussion is the S12 it would seem that you must be referencing it.

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Nope. In fact, I very clearly made the recommendation that he examine the Ithaca guns, if you'd read my whole first post in this thread, instead of just the part you wanted to lambaste me for. While slightly more expensive new, the 37 represents a much better value.

If you've handled many NIB saigas they can be pretty rough weapons and a surprising number of them over the years have needed warranty work (all the two hole guns and others) or tuning to getting running right. S12 finishes are pretty poor (I own/have owned about over a dozen different saigas) generally and not very durable. Although the S12 can be built into a very fine gun I'm not sure I could truly say it is a superior quality gun to the above mentioned Norinco shotguns.

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I never said the Saiga was of superior quality, only that I'd choose it over the others for reasons made painfully obvious at this point. I don't personally find them appealing at all.

And if the Saigas were so bad, why on earth did you buy "over a dozen" of them? Doesn't seem very prudent to me.

I haven't sampled as wide a range on Norc shotguns as I have saigas but on at least some exemplars I have definitely seen nicer furniture, and better finishes.

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That's like touting a Triumph TR7 over a Yugo GV. Being one notch better than the worst of the worst isn't exactly praiseworthy.

First, fit and finish is a component of quality. I don't know any reasonable person who wouldn't agree. With items like guns, where aesthetics and function are both very important, there is a definite dichotomy in saying it doesn't have nice fit and finish but is good quality.

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Yes and if you weren't looking to be argumentative you would just take the comment as what it was meant for and that is that I was saying the fit of finish of the Norinco is superior to that of the saiga but inferior to say my Browning Citori. In other words if one cares to spend much more they get fancier stocks and deep polished bluing with engraving and gold inlay. Yes that's higher "quality" but that is not the type of gun the OP is looking at not is it a feature that will serve him in what he is after.

Fit and finish is an element of quality but it is not the sole element, and to me far from the most important. In fact depending on intent of the end product needless fanciness might not even be desirable. My pickup truck doesn't have the interior fit and finish that my BMW has, but its not supposed to and I wouldn't want it to. I don't get in my BMW after a day of horseback or motorcycle riding covered in dirt. Similarly I don't take my double guns out to belly crawl in the dirt, bang them around doing pistol transitions, or stuff them behind the seat of my truck as I drive around my ranch.

And if the Saigas were so bad, why on earth did you buy "over a dozen" of them? Doesn't seem very prudent to me.

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I could get bet out of shape about the comment that it doesn't seem prudent to you and cry about it for 3 posts and a PM claiming you have no right to assume I'm not prudent. I don't get butt hurt however, so I'll just say that the answer is in my original comments. They can be built into very fine weapons, including awesome 3 gun and fighting shotguns. As I always tell people I think the S12 makes a pretty crappy $550 shotgun but a very very fine $1000+ dollar shotgun. I have built a few different configurations in various calibers and gauges to suit my needs and more aptly my desires.

The 1911's are on par with Armscor stuff, which is to say functionally acceptable but far from Kimber, COlt, DW or any reputable US maker.

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I suggest you do some research on that point. Or if you like just do some milling on all of the above mentioned guns. The steel in Norcs is superior to all the guns you mentioned. If a Norc is on par with a RIA et al then why can one use a norc as a base gun for a 460 rowland conversion but not use any of the Armscor guns? It is a GI style gun and as such was not made with all the bells and whistles but it was a favorite base gun for many custom builders including Wilson back in the day. A Kimber is full of MIM parts, care to guess how many are in a Norinco? I'd take a base Norc with custom mods over a Kimber any day. Then again I purchase guns based on performance and my tastes and not xenophobia.

the 37 represents a much better value.

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I thought you said

Secondly, what is or isn't a good value is very subjective.

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To me the Ithaca is not a better value because it doesn't do anything the OP wants better than the others and costs hundreds more. I guess value really is subjective.

Nope. In fact, I very clearly made the recommendation that he examine the Ithaca guns,

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So you just ignored the OP's question to pontificate.

I never said the Saiga was of superior quality, only that I'd choose it over the others for reasons made painfully obvious at this point. I don't personally find them appealing at all.

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So basically you just wanted to discuss guns not under the OPs consideration. Further you don't own any of the guns in question and don't like any of them and from what you have demonstrated here don't seem to be very experienced or familiar with them. What is it that you have to add to this thread? You are scared of China. We get it.

Of course I got bent out of shape on account of it being relentlessly asserted that I lack the fortitude and commitment to follow through with a principle I hold to be very important. So yeah, the comment on prudence was a little push back. It was also clearly stated as opinion, which makes a big difference in the offense level that should be taken. This is a basic sociological concept.

The PM was to try not to derail this thread any further, but it seems you'd rather discuss the matter in open forum. So be it, until the mods shut it down. Tenacity is one of my attributes, both in shopping for non chicom goods and arguing with people who insist I can't do so effectively.

To me the Ithaca is not a better value because it doesn't do anything the OP wants better than the others and costs hundreds more. I guess value really is subjective.

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How about lasting and offering pride of ownership in a timeless, classic, high quality pump gun? The norc '97's are made of some seriously soft steel from the examples I've seen. And the bluing? Well, it just sucks. As for price, the Norc '97's on the used market seem to run about $250-$350, while a nice used Ithaca can be had anywhere between $300 and $500. I wouldn't call that "hundreds more". So yeah, unless he's sold on an exposed hammer, I believe the Ithaca represents a better value.

He could also get a real model 97 for $400-$600.

So you just ignored the OP's question to pontificate.

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Once more, read my first post. I answered his question. Just added a suggestion as well, and one that seemed very appropriate, given the style of one of his considerations. Perhaps he knows of them, maybe he didn't. He can choose to investigate or ignore that option. What does it hurt to put it out there?

I suggest you do some research on that point. Or if you like just do some milling on all of the above mentioned guns. The steel in Norcs is superior to all the guns you mentioned.

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You asked what my experience was, and it's that the Norc 1911's are not the Bee's Knee's. I'm not a 1911 builder, per se, though I have a fair amount of experience. But I do run in circles of people who are, and I don't know one who'd rather build a Norc than a Colt, STI, Caspian, etc. Maybe they just have American pride as I do, or maybe they actually know a thing or two about the hit and miss quality of those guns. China has never been known for good QC; Unsafe products originating from there are not exactly an uncommon occurance these days. But feel free to buy your child some toxic painted toys or give your dog some of that melamine-laden chow. After all, you'll be supporting "economic peace".

You are scared of China. We get it.

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Scared of? No. Loathe the nation? Absolutely. They've subverted our entire economy and have malicious intentions that are anything but secretive, if thinly veiled.

I simply stated my personal take on chicom products, you chose to pick a fight with me over that tenet. Why, I have no idea, but I'm not one to back down, especially when my character is called into question.

1897, just plain awsome. And if you bust your thumb with it your holding it wrong. Also, people that rant about the "evil chinese commie guns" are part of the reason just about every other firearms forum out there sees THR as a bunch of fuds, or old white guys with a grudge against everything that doesnt have a hardwood stock and such. But hey, more cheap and well made norinco guns for us man, your loss. And yes a real 97 would be about the same price, but it sould seem he wants a short barrel "trench gun type", which are in the thousands for an original.

I will start buying exclusively American again, when S&W stop selling their stuff so overpriced, and I dont have to worry about my Remington being defective or just looking like it was made in a third world country. Ithica is out of my range as well and the just don't fit me, Mossberg, Marlin, and Savage are the only American brands i feel have a good value for the money anymore, at least for long guns.

I tend to buy the best value for the money, and if the chinese or russians are making a better product then i will buy it, The Only Remington i ever bought was a Russian spartan, because Baikal actually has better quality control lately than USA Remington does.

People need to realise the difference between "American Pride" and mindless nationalism and xenophobia.

And now, that everybody is good and pissed off, and the thread is hopelessly derailed, the mods will close it, because this is not General gun discussion, which is where im guessing people need to go if they want to go on a rant about their Xenophobic tendancies.

but it sould seem he wants a short barrel "trench gun type", which are in the thousands for an original.

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That's a valid point. But......It's very easy to reconfigure a standard '97 with a hacksaw and the addition of a heat shield and barrel shroud/bayonet lug adapter. Or if he doesn't have to have those things, but still wants a shorty that can be used for sporting purposes, any decent shotgun smith can put a squeeze on the shorter tube (or thread it for removeable chokes).

Again, just a suggestion. Totally his choice, and if he wants a trench gun copy, but doesn't care to spend the $400-$600 on the real Winchester and another couple hundred on the trench gun parts and smithing, then the Norinco is his only real option. I never said "don't buy it", just that I wouldn't.

He's got 3 very different potentials in his list, which suggests to me that the possibilities are a little more open thana thread started with "I want an authentic looking trench gun". Shoot, I spent 1/3 as much on my Remington M11 turned whippit gun:



$172 OTD, a couple hours with a some common garage tools, a piece of 3/16" steel and a dab of birchwood-casey cold blue to touch up the muzzle, and it's a 100% reliable trap-to-magnum slugs semi-auto with very handy dimensions and a definite appeal to those who like the trench/riot guns of yore. Not to mention some personal pride in being able to say "look what I did".

The same could be done with any old pump or auto, like a Remington 31 or Winchester 12. Heat shields and other accessories are readily available too, if that's what one wants. The thing could also be professionally parkerized for a hundred bucks, if one prefers the matte look.

Maybe the OP doesn't care to modify an old gun, I don't know. But it's always yet another possibility. He's acknowledged needing to alter a Saiga, so it wouldn't seem he's opposed to a gun that isn't off-the-shelf ready.

I tend to buy the best value for the money, and if the chinese or russians are making a better product then i will buy it

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Your perogative, and I have no more right to ridicule you for it than anyone has to snark at me for my dislike of chinese products.

People need to realise the difference between "American Pride" and mindless nationalism and xenophobia.

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Are you suggesting that the Norc is somehow better than the Ithaca? Or just speaking generally? Mind you, I don't only buy USA made, because there are some products that are either not manufactured domestically or the import may be better. I have lots of Italian guns, German guns, etc. My motorcycle is a Honda, because no domestic offered what I was looking for. Don't construe my desire to own USA made when possible to mean that I hate all imported products and dismiss them based solely on their origin, regardless or merit/quality.

And dislike of China made products is hardly tantamount to "Xenophobia" (which, by the way, is having the scope of it's definition seriously stretched in regard to imported knockoff guns)

That's a nice gun Mach, I almost grabbed a Sportsman 48 recently to fiddle with, but walked out without it.

It was also clearly stated as opinion, which makes a big difference in the offense level that should be taken. This is a basic sociological concept.

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The offense level that should be taken is even more strongly correlated to one's maturity level. That's why your attempt at a jab didn't hurt my feelings and I didn't rant and rave. Try it.

The norc '97's are made of some seriously soft steel from the examples I've seen.

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Out of curiosity how did you test their hardness? The prevalence and performance of these things in Cowboy action shooting speaks for itself. Conventional wisdom is that the steel is better than what one finds on the original. I'd suggest the OP search around and get the opinions of long time owners and users who don't have a bald agenda if he wants information as to the quality of these particular weapons.

I don't know one who'd rather build a Norc than a Colt, STI, Caspian, etc. Maybe they just have American pride as I do . . .

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Almost all STIs are built on a cast frame. In what world are those cast frames superior to the forged steel frame of a Norinco? I don't really believe the cast frame is a big issue to be honest (some people get all worked up about it however) but the Norc's is a superior item. Guns like the STI spartan are also a Filipino built frame, slide and barrel. Further the STI internals are shipped to the Philippines to be assembled.
That is very interesting if one is motivated to get it by "American pride." Its also interesting that you seem to indicate the STI is just great when you erroneously knocked the Norc for being on par with the Armscor guns. Certain STIs are Armscor guns with different internals. A bunch of the other guns you touted also have cast frames. Lots of Smiths don't like to work on Norcs, but the reason is that the guns eat their tooling at a much faster rate which equals less profit it has nothing to do with quality. Like I say Wilson made a pretty damn good name for himself customizing Norincos. I'm sure your buddies know something about building 1911s and Norincos that Bill Wilson doesn't.

Here is further explanation about the Norinco steel: http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=15245

Seriously it is pretty clear you want to argue just to argue and also clear you don't know what you are talking about.

Unsafe products originating from there are not exactly an uncommon occurance these days.

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As someone who worked in a law office that did work primarily as plaintiff's council I can tell you there are unsafe products originating from America as well.

you chose to pick a fight with me over that tenet. Why, I have no idea, but I'm not one to back down,

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Apparently not even when one explains to you that he was not "picking a fight" with you either. How admirable.

And dislike of China made products is hardly tantamount to "Xenophobia" (which, by the way, is having the scope of it's definition seriously stretched in regard to imported knockoff guns)

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xen·o·pho·bi·a -- an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange. (emphasis added).

The offense level that should be taken is even more strongly correlated to one's maturity level. That's why your attempt at a jab didn't hurt my feelings and I didn't rant and rave. Try it

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Oh, yes. Maturity is much better demonstrated by saying insulting things about a person's character for no good reason. "I bet you buy so much chicom stuff it's not funny", "I also highly doubt you are giving the necessary diligence", "So you just ignored the OP's question to pontificate." (stated as fact, not question or opinion), etc. with absolutely no evidence to back up such assertions that are offensive in nature, and in context.

On Xenophobia, lets consider the etymolgy of the word. Xeno (or Xenos, in it's original form) means "strange", or alien/foreign in the more abstract sense of being unfamiliar, not as much literally from somewhere else. It would be more correctly applied to things (tangibles, culture, etc) that originated in a foreign country, not things that are copied and then imported to the nation that developed them in the first place. Note that I didn't say use of the term was incorrect, just that it is a stretch, based on common application of the word.

Out of curiosity how did you test their hardness?

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The amount of galling and deep scratches evident on internal parts and the magazine tube exterior, and the fact that it chewed very easily with sandpaper and files. Maybe poor examples of the overall production. But then, that would still support my stance on the QC issue.

I can tell you there are unsafe products originating from America as well.

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No doubt, and I never said there wasn't. But I bet not even you will venture to insinuate that the US manufacturing industry is not better regulated for product safety than that of the PRC.

Seriously it is pretty clear you want to argue just to argue and also clear you don't know what you are talking about.

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I didn't want to argue at all. If I did, I'd have said "I don't buy chicom stuff, and anyone who does should debate me and we can piss each other off and wreck this thread". But you'll not find the second half of that example anywhere in my posts.

This certainly could have been more civil, say if you had quoted me and replied "what do you feel is wrong with Chicom?" or, to make your original point in a non-insulting manner "Alot of stuff people buy is chicom and they don't even realize it. Do you?" But instead, you started off in an insulting manner, and continued to badger me after I was very clear that I do, in fact, research my purchases very carefully. Could have just said OK, rolled your eyes if you flet like it, and moved forward. So who's really being argumentative here?

That's a nice gun Mach, I almost grabbed a Sportsman 48 recently to fiddle with, but walked out without it.

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Thanks!

Yeah, I have always liked the humpbacks, so when I saw this particularly clean one for such a good price, I snagged it. It actually points very naturally, and shoots pretty nice with low brass trap and field loads. But the light weight, short stock and steel butt plate make it pretty abusive with heavy buck loads and slugs. I had a reminder for a few days after running through a few dozen such loads.

Seriously it is pretty clear you want to argue just to argue and also clear you don't know what you are talking about.

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Your response to the quotation above is a bit puzzling as it was in reference to your comments about Norc 1911s. Yet when asked about those comments and the disinformation in them you just ranted more about how I hurt your feelings by suggesting that you might not find out who has ownership in the companies at every level of production of every product you buy. In fact every time the discussion has shifted to the guns the OP is asking about you have found a way to bring it back to how upset you are that I hurt feelings. Let it go. Again I wasn't trying to insult your character. I'm very sorry if you saw it that way. Let it go, you will feel much better (in my opinion that is .)

Also you getting all hung up on me stating it as fact and not opinion is down right laughable when you look at what I actually said. which was:

I bet you buy so much stuff that is "chicom" that it is not even funny.

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What do you think I'll bet was alluding to other that it was my opinion that it was probable? If I say that I bet the Celtics will win game three am I asserting it as a fact that they will or stating my opinion that I think it is the case? Would anyone accuse me of having alleged something as a fact. If you are going to be so thin skinned and get so bent out of shape over minor things at least get them right.

That said, nothing in all the ranting and raving you have done about your diligence even contradicts anything I posted.

Do you research in full the origins of every single component of every product you buy even if the product is marked Made in the USA? For example if you buy a grill labeled made in the USA, do you find out where every hose and valve on the thing came from before you buy it? If so how do you get said information and how do you verify it?

Do you also research who has any stake in the ownership of all of the companies including parents and/or subsidiaries that produce every component of every single thing you purchase? If so how do you obtain this information?

You conceded my essential point so time ago when you stated

I'll give you that it's virtually impossible to live a quasi-normal life and not have at least some of your money going to China in this day and age.

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Beyond that you expressed that you were upset at the way you felt I mad that point. I have repeatedly told you that was not my intent. Given those facts is there some reason you need to continually go round in circles on this?

Your response to the quotation above is a bit puzzling as it was in reference to your comments about Norc 1911s. Yet when asked about those comments and the disinformation in them you just ranted mor

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It being separated from the main paragraph made it seem more general. I didn't go into detail about my take on Norc 1911's because they really have nothing to do with the thread, only brough up because you asked of my experience with said firearms manufacturer. I didn't say they were junk, and I never alluded that a nice custom couldn't be built on a good one. my experience has been that their fit, finish and performance as factory guns was comparable to an Armscor pistol. I have admittedly little experience with Norc based customs, since, as I stated, the builders that I associate with don't use them (they typically build on virgin frames).

Do you research in full the origins of every single component of every product you buy even if the product is marked Made in the USA? For example if you buy a grill labeled made in the USA, do you find out where every hose and valve on the thing came from before you buy it? If so how do you get said information and how do you verify it?

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I do if it is marked "Made in USA of USA and imported components". If it is just marked "Made in USA", I'll check to see if any accessories or marked small parts say something else. If not, no, I typically do not look further, having some faith in the companies abiding by the FTC guidlines.

Do you also research who has any stake in the ownership of all of the companies including parents and/or subsidiaries that produce every component of every single thing you purchase? If so how do you obtain this information?

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To a large extent I do. No, I won't refuse a $500 US made product because it has $2.47 worth of offshore fasteners in it. That wouldn't be reasonable. In point of fact, most of the fasteners I use are imported. But they're made in Taiwan for Fastenal. They're not chinese.

As far as sources from for the information, lots of web searching and directly contacting the companies by phone and email.

I typically do not look further, having some faith in the companies abiding by the FTC guidlines.

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This was my whole point. They can abide by the regs and yet have Chinese stuff in them. Read the guidelines you posted again, the grill example I used was taken directly from them. They might mark the grill made in the USA but use a hose and valve made somewhere else, oh say, China. Those parts might not be marked separately. Your method of only checking marked accessories and/or marked small parts would not alert you to this fact.

Anyways, I think we've probably done a fair amount of talking past each other and perhaps even misconstruing each others statements and intent. However, I don't think what we are saying is actually too different from one another. Best of luck in your endeavor and sorry for any unintended offense.


To the OP I'd get the S12 only if you are interested in a project. They take a bit of work but are very fun guns. A S12 is one of my favorite guns to shoot. My S12 is also the softest shooting 12 gauge I've shot. That alone makes it a lot of fun. After I have put away my coach gun and the pumps because of soreness I'll keep blasting away with a S12. Magnum slugs in the Saiga beat me up less than Federal bulk bird shot in the coach gun.

If you are not interested in modding the S12, which for a basic job will run about $150 and take a couple hours, or spending the money on more mags, which add up fast, then I'd go with the trench gun.

Dang, Girodin. Let it go, man. Go to PMs or email for this crap. Dude/OP just wanted a shotty suggestion, not a thread full of "yeah, but...."

I seriously dig the look of the '97, but would love to get my paws on a S12. Be funny just to show up at the skeet range & see the looks on the Fudds' faces.

This is not a kindergarden sandbox. Sheesh!!

Thread closed.....