"Slam-firing" the Winchester '97

[Tearlachblair]

So in defense shotguns I've been looking strongly at the Norinco replica of the Winchester 1897 Riot gun as a car/camping kind of weapon. I've heard this is one of the few shotguns you can still slam-fire as it does not have a disconnect? Just how do you go about slam firing (I know, I know, you hold the trigger back and pump the pump). What I'm really asking is, what is the best stance? Do you have to do it a certain speed to get it to work? How DOES it work?

Also I read that the Winchester takes 2 3/4 shells. Can it also take three or is that not even an option?

 

[dfariswheel]

Speed doesn't matter, stance is however you can best hold the gun.

How it works is, without a disconnecter to prevent firing with the trigger held back, when the action closes, the hammer drops.
The problem is, the hammer may fire the shell while the action is not quite locked.
This is HARD on guns, since the parts take a real beating. As the parts wear, you get into a situation where the gun is firing while unlocked at all, and the only thing holding the bolt closed is you hand on the pump handle.
This batters the gun even more.

The dirty little secret of slam firing a shotgun is, it's a "Hollywood thing" that looks impressive on a movie screen, but doesn't work in the real world.
The truth is, it's something to do on a firing range for fun and to impress people who know little about guns.
It's the shotgun equivalent of fanning a single action revolver, or pointing a high capacity auto at a target and yanking the trigger as fast as you can.......looks impressive, hits nothing.

It's hard on the gun, and can be dangerous.

In fact, it's almost impossible to actually hit a target while slam firing which is why no real combat shotgunner will use it.
In the movies, the shotgunner, (often with a pistol grip short gun) points the gun in the general direction of a target, slam fires the gun, and a 20 foot wide glass window is blown out and the target is blown apart by at least 30 pellets of 00 buckshot.

In the real world a shotgun only works when it's aimed at the target, either by using sights, or by "pointing" the gun, which is how bird shooters and good combat shooters do it.
For this to work, the butt stock has to be in your shoulder and you have to be looking down the barrel.

When done this way, the power of the shotgun usually means it's one shot per customer to do the job.
Slam firing wastes ammo the low magazine capacity of the shotgun really can't spare, and DOES NOT produce hits on target in real life.

In other words, if you're looking for a range toy to play with, slam fire away.
If you're thinking of using it in a real defense situation, likely you're going to get killed by an opponent who'll be actually aiming his gun and won't miss, while you scatter shot all over the place without effect, except possible innocent neighbors or bystanders.

 

[Tearlachblair]

Terrific post, Dfariswheel, thanks! That definitely answered even some of my unasked questions on slamfiring (ie: I was thinking it would be pretty brutal on the shotgun parts).

 

[[email protected]]

yea, very good post,
just to reenforce, dont bother slam firing cuz it is hard on the gun, and aim, always good advice.
as for the 3" shells i bet if there is a magnum version it would use 3"

 

[Dave McCracken]

dfaris nailed it, a couple minor points....

If Slamfiring was all that, don't you think 3 gunners would be using just old M37s, 97s and 12s?. Or, Benelli, Remington,etc, would be bringing out new models that had that feature?

Or SWAT teams, patrols in Jihadistan, and our Thin Blue Line?.

With good shotgunners getting split times under .4 seconds with ordinary ol' pumpguns, maybe a little emphaisis on expertise instead of flash is in order.

 

[HighVelocity]

I have a Coyote Cap (norinco) 97 and while it works great, firing 3" shells regularly may not be such a hot idea.
2 3/4" low recoil 00 buck is the only defensive rounds I use in it.

 

[AJD]

I purchased a Norinco 97 earlier this year and wasn't too impressed.

The action was very gritty feeling and not very smooth at all. When I loaded my first shell, my finger was literally sliced open with blood gushing out because of how sharp the edge was. The buttstock and foregrip didn't match in color and the extractor came loose after 10 shots....

My advice is too look elsewhere unless you crazy about the look and historic appeal of the gun.

 

[Black_Talon]

As an Ithaca 37 nut for the past 35+ years, I agree 100% with dfaris and Dave McC's take on the slam-fire issue. You just can't hit the side of a barn, no matter how much you practice. As a matter of fact, I find the slam-fire feature on my M37's to be a detriment, not an advantage. I can shoot these things really fast, and sometimes find myself "going full auto" when I don't want to. I've gone so far as to swap out the slam fire trigger groups on a couple of my M37's and replace them with the hard-to-find Ithaca "Interrupter" trigger assemblies.

 

[mjb]

I have an Ithaca 37 with the slam fire feature. I love a shotgun with that ability because it is very effective. Yes, you can be effective with it. If you are not holding the shotgun at your shoulder have your supporting arm out straight. Aim a little low. If your supporting arm is bent the recoil will cause the gun to rise and you may miss your target. Aim the gun about a foot low with your supporting arm straight before you shoot your target. You can empty out the gun really fast. I don't think any home intruder will stay around after that!
However, I do agree that repeated slam firing may be hard on the gun. But for self defense, it is a really nice feature to have on a pump shotgun.

 

[Thin Black Line]

When I loaded my first shell, my finger was literally sliced open with blood gushing out because of how sharp the edge was.

But now you have a callous there and have toughened up a bit.

 

[busterbrown]

tried slam fire 1st time at range with noinco trenchgun. 3 rd or 4th shot- recoil strong enough- lost my grip on the foregrip. never again

 

[JohnBT]

"You can empty out the gun really fast. I don't think any home intruder will stay around after that!"

Are you trying to hit them or just scare them off?

John

 

[mjb]

Of course you would want to hit the intruder. :banghead:

 

[JohnBT]

Then why not shoot them once and be done with it?

John

 

[mjb]

I admit that is the best way, but I do like the fact that I have the ability to empty it out fast. In reality though, once with a shotgun should be enough.

 

[Demolition]

Also I read that the Winchester takes 2 3/4 shells. Can it also take three or is that not even an option?

According to the documentation that I've seen, it will not take 3" shells. I followed this up with a phone call to a local Norinco dealer who said that the M97 only comes with a 2.75" chamber, like the original Winchester 1897. Perhaps, this is to provide some measure of historical accuracy for those who want the Norinco for CAS usage.

 

[mattw]

i've got a norinco '97. great gun. Fit and finish are fine. I have no complaints. I have yet to cut my self or suffer an injury from the "sharp edges".

my advice: get one, slam fire. have fun.

I've slam fired mine a few times. Once the fun factor wears off its really pretty pointless to me. I can't control it past 3 shots slam firing.

 

[PJR]

Even in some very tight sporting clays pairs I've never found the disconnector on my Remington 870 a hindrance and don't see the appeal of slam-firing but to each his own.

The Winchester Model 12 will slam fire and this feature caused a fellow shooter to put a round in the back of our club's trap house several winters ago. His mistake was putting a trigger shoe on his Model 12. As best as we could determine the shoe got caught in his clothing and held the trigger back while he closed the action resulting in a discharge. He dumped the trigger shoe immediately and was more cautious about closing his gun.

 

[Bridger]

Considering how fast I can shoot my pump guns without slam fire, I dont' see the need for it. I can engage several targets quickly and score hits.

When I played paintball, some pump guns had the same feature known as an "autotrigger". I had tried using this a few times in paintball games to up my rate of fire and found it made my accuracy terrible and I was more likely to short stroke. When I stopped using autotrigger features I could still pump very fast and do it more accurately. Fast enough that some people didn't realize I was shooting a pump gun. I think this is one of the few places where paintball and shooting have something in common.

 

[richardschennberg]

The fastest safe way to shoot a pump is to pump vigorously as soon as you fire one shot, while looking at the next target. Bring the gun to the target quickly, and pull the trigger as soon as the action is closed with the gun on target. The trick is to learn to hesitate slightly if the gun is not pointed at the target when you close the action.
Richard
Schennberg.com