ACOG vs. RDS with magnifier on a Larue flip mount

I would take that money and spend it on a training course. the training will serve serve you well, regardless of what gun you are using.

Personally, I love the idea of Trijicon's optics as no matter what, even after the tritium lamp goes dark (and in the case of the Tri-Power, the battery), you still have the fiber optic collector that will allow one to use the optic under a majority of circumstances. The ACOG will cost more than a RDS+Magnifier, but from what I've read ACOGs are practically bomb proof.

The big problem I see with the aimpoint + magnifier (and even 1-4x variables) is that you've added a "murphy" effect. Given my luck I'd find myself using the 1x aimpoint and not even see a distant target, or have it disappear before I could flip to 4x. Likewise I'd probably be scanning some distant object at 4x when a threat would pop up at close range that I'd need to engage RIGHT NOW.

So long as you can use BAC effectively, you can switch between a "1x" view and a magnified view on the ACOG almost instantly without having to take a hand off the gun to fiddle with any levers or mounts.

Every option is just a different set of compromises. Both the Aimpoint and ACOG have seen lots of military service and will get the job done. The most important factor is probably which you are most comfortable with and like using - you'll shoot and dry fire that one more, and consequently perform better with it.

Hey RC601962, I'm only going to bring up the points that I considered when I was in your situation. For your needs, I feel that the RDS with a magnifier on a flip mount would be suffice. Without the magnifier, using both eyes open will be no problem. The only time you won't be able to use both eyes is when you use the magnifier. The same can be said for the ACOG's because the lowest magnification they have is 1.5x on some of their models. Some may be able to use both eyes open at 1.5x and some may not. The only way to find out is to try for yourself. I know with my Aimpoint 3x, I can't use it with both eyes open. About magnification, with the ACOGs, you're only going to have 1 option. With the RDS and magnifier combo, you'll have 2 options...

With regards to weight, I think the ACOG will weigh significantly less than an RDS and magnifier combo. For the M4s, alone, at 9.3oz, it already weighs a little more than twice the amount of the ACOG TA26S-10 (4.5oz). And with the factory mount, the M4s is already at 11.8oz. So, this is something you'll have to decide on your own.

Lastly, with the price, I think when you get a good quality RDS (Eotech or Aimpoint), magnifier and mounts, the price will practically be the same as that of an ACOG and mount depending on the model (cheapest ACOG model is $1010.00), or even more.

So with the points I have mentioned above, whichever route you choose, you'll have to weigh your options carefully. It's a big investment, so think it through and do your research. Either way, I think you'll be happy with your decision. Good luck!

-BigWil

All of the BAC Acogs (1.5x on up) are intended to be used with both eyes open. That's sort of the whole idea with the Bindon Aiming Concept.

That said, a quality red dot sight will be quicker on target from 0-200yards. Add the magnifier when you need it and you can push out quite a bit further.

If you have the magnifier on a quick detach setup, you don't even have to add the weight until you need the capability.

My big argument against the RDS is batteries. Either going bad, running out at a bad time, or whatever.

6 of one, half dozen of the other...

For a civil unrest, defensive gun the best solution is probably your red dot sight and a pair of binoculars. If you get caught engaging in "defensive" shootings at ranges where you need a magnified optic, you're going to start hearing terms like "suspect" and "defendant" a lot during your interactions with law enforcement and the DA.

That said, for an austere conditions all around rifle, I'd pick an ACOG personally. I can shoot a x4 power TA31 at close range with miniscule time differences compared to red dots, and it opens up longer range to you with less mechanical bits and no electronics to potentially go sideways on you. (Bearing in mind I have faith EOTechs and AimPoints and am not battery-phobic, but in absolute terms not having to worry about them is a plus.)

In civil unrest for 0-200 yards, I think an Aimpoint/EOtech would more than suffice. You're going to be defending yourself from looters and thugs, nearly all of whom are opportunists. They start hearing fire coming back, they'll split. They keep coming back to the same place and get shot at, they will learn to avoid it and go for lower-hanging fruit. Its simply not in their interest to get killed over a bag 'o cheetos and a flat screen LCD.

I think in a Katrina-type scenario a 1X Red dot will serve you for 95% of the time, and a 3x magnifier will cover that remaining 5% of time when you could use a magnified optic to make your life simpler. A shotgun will probably have enough range to cover 80% or so of the engagements. Think urban warfare and CQB. Long range marksmanship opportunities will be far and between, and Id wage average engagement range would be 50 yards and 99% inside 100.

I don't own either, but doing my own drills with a nice 4X scope I noticed no reduction in speed picking up close targets as long as you get used to both eyes open. I like the idea of just having a optic always the same...always ready. I would go ACOG.

In the context of your question I'd go with the appropriate ACOG as it's entirely self-contained. However, if it was me, I'd not even consider a magnifying optic on my defensive carbine, specifically speaking I'd avoid any dually mounted optics as being to cumbersome and likely detracting from the practical CQB application of the weapon!
I would prefer either the appropriate EOTech or Aimpoint combined with an excellent BUIS, IMO.

In a Katrina type situation like some others I would take the Aimpoint and no magnifier; what kind of shots are you envisioning here? Anything beyond red dot range is not "defensive" in nature, for sure.

Batteries should not be a problem as long as you change them on an aggressive schedule; say once every 2 years, and keep a spare on the rifle. Add a set of BUIS just in case. Done.

If most of your shooting is 200 yards or less, the dot with magnifier will be plenty. Just be sure to practice enough so you know what your holdover will be at any given distance.

That said, the ACOG's strength lies in the ballistic drop compensator in the reticle. Learning how to use that under field conditions makes it quite easy to engage targets out to 400 yards or more.

Uh, I really can't picture a scenerio where a civilian would EVER be justified in shooting someone more than even 100 yards away with a rifle. Even 100yards is a stretch. So if it is really a "defence" rifle, RDS or eotech all the way. If it's a range toy or a hunting rig then I think and ACOG or a mag+RDS combo would be really fun.

For a practical-use rifle, RDS all the way. 95% of your combat shooting would be within the efficient operational envelope of a red dot, and 99.99999999999999999999% of your legal defensive shooting in a civil unrest scenario would be as well.

Basically, the two sight systems have different biases:

RDSes shine at close range, can work at long range, and you have a mechanical aid (the magnifier) that can make it work better at long range. The aid, however, has some significant limitations (small FOV, the need to take a step to attach or position it) that make it inferior to a dedicated optic.

ACOGs shine at longer range, can work at short range, and you have a mechanical aid (closing the front lens cover and using it as an OEG) to make it work better at close range. The aid, however, has some significant limitations (OEGs don't work quite as well as a real RDS) that make it inferior to a dedicated optic.

Both work, they're just biased in different directions, and you can't have your cake and eat it too. Pick one, press on. In this case the cheaper option is actually the more useful one for your probable real world use.

Mike

ive got and have used both alot and prefer the acog. The aimpoint and magnifier are not near as good in a low light situation and i dont want to have to decide whether i need magnification or not and have to flip over a magnifier. I also think it akward when flipped over. Reliability is a toss up as both are are about as rugged as they come. As to speed if you practice with an acog the differnce is speed is not going to make the differnce in you getting killed or not. Both are extreamly fast at close range. At ranges out at a 100 or more the acogs reticles are much more precise then the aimpoints. Granted shots out that far are better off avoided in a survival situation anyway. id bring up that the acog will never need batterys but if a survial situation last so long that an aimpoints batterys are dead you will probably be dead long before. Me if I could only own one ar it would have a 3.5 or 4x acog and a good set of buis on top of it.

Small arms engagements in combat historically, to include A-stan present day, are usually (overwhelmingly) 150m or less. In a SHTF/Katrina type situation, given the nature of the circumstances distances would be very short.

I'd just use a rugged RDS (no magnifier) with insane battery life. I like my Aimpoint H1, and an Aimpoint M4 might make more sense as it has 70,000 hrs bat. life (vs the T/T1's 50K) and is probably more rugged.

For an ACOG, the 1.5X would do nicely.

Edit: I just saw this part:

an ACOG or a magnifier allows me to see into corners and pockets of darkness that I can not with my unaided eyes. Think of an optic as quasi-night vision.

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The 1.5 ACOG then, seems like the best of all worlds.

Man I hate these discussions, just when I thought I had my setup all figured out you guys chime in with all these pros and cons and throw my intentions all out of whack. Then I start thinking, well, maybe an ACOG would be more simple and reliable than a RDS with a magnifier.
Then previous experiences come to mind when you see something off in the distance and you forgot your binocs and you just can't quite make out what it is or if there are antlers or not.
Those ACOGS are nice, but expensive and you can't dial down the magnification so I think I'm going to stick with what I have and add the magnifier when I can.

How about an Acog an Dr. Optic? Not Cheap But the best of both worlds

The use of the gun would be for civil unrest, katrina type situations?

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Honestly, how often are you going to practice with it? Be Really Honest with yourself here. If it is just going to sit in a closet and come out a couple times a year go with Iron sights. IMHO optics are less than ideal on a SHTF rifle. I just got back from a rifle class, with competent people. But EVERYONE'S optics (Etoech, Aimpoint, Elcan, Acog, Millet) were off and had to be adjusted. I'd bet that 90% of the time the first 20 shots with irons are more accurate than with an optic. If this rifle is going to be a grab and go situation, stick to irons.

That being said. Do you live in an urban or rural area? If your get out of dodge plans involve running through the countryside go ACOG. If you need something for quick shots across your living room, then go Aimpoint/Eotech.... or Irons.