Shotguns vs. Bears

AB - I'll bet Brister was hunting one of the many large game birds and waterfowl; but at 25 yards (which is in the typical range for a water buffalo), that 375 sounds better to me, especially in a double gun...................THAT might be the ticket - one of those gun cut back to about 16".............or maybe one in 458nor one of the Nitros..........YIKES!

12 ga. Brenneke Slugs, 3" Magnum, good for what is ailing ya!

Ditch-Tiger said:

Pumpshotgun + slugs = poormans express rifle

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Then this is a rich man's express rifle

So he used his Perrazzi over and under 12 gauge using Brenneke slugs

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How about the Federal 10 gauge 3.5" magnum foster slug?

Me, I'd rather have a magnum rifle to do rifle work. Unless the rules say I HAVE to use a shotgun, and can't sub my smoke pole for it, I would rather use a rifle or handgun for hunting. Shotguns are for birds...and maybe rabbits over a good pair of beagles. Shotguns make rather short range rifles. Range isn't a consideration for bear defense, but I'd still rather have, say, a BLR in .325 WSM or perhaps a Marlin stainless guide gun with a hot .45-70 load. More SD = penetration. with the right bullet.

Don't matter. I doubt I'll ever see a brown bear in Texas unless one gets loose in Breckenridge zoo.

How does a shotgun compare against a big bore lever action rifle for bear?

Bears is funny critters... and the only "downside" to all the rules of thumb (be they bruin behavior, or stopping power) is... bears can't read. And, the ONE thing you CAN count on is... they're unpredictable. I'm sure they have good days and bad days... get extra grumpy when they have a toothache or some other physical ailment. And, you don't know which one has had a whoopin' bestowed on him "for the last time" by another large bear.

Ratdog68 said:

Bears is funny critters...they're unpredictable...get extra grumpy when they have a toothache or some other physical ailment.

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I never thought in terms of animals having "bad days" -- but it makes complete sense!

I would like to make some corrections to my original post guys.
Last night I dug through a small mountain of old hunting magazines and finally found that article and had the pleasure to reread it.
My first correction is they were not drinking around the campfire but they were in a talk about the effectiveness of the slug gun.
My second correction is he did not use Brennkke slugs instead he was using over the counter old Peters(Remington) foster slugs.
The guys backing him up had .458 magnums.
In this very good article dated in 1975 he also did a lot of tests with slugs from various shotguns and showed a picture of firing a 12 gauge Brennke slug into a set of phone books at 40 yards using said slug and it penetrated 2199 pages at the distance.
What a wallop!!

How does a shotgun compare against a big bore lever action rifle for bear?

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I'm sure it's just as effective if you get the same shot placement. It's just that these events can unfold very fast and shotguns are designed for quick point/shoot at moving targets. That probably explains why these guys use field guns like 870's instead of cop-style Mossbergs.

Yeah, if you can hit a desert quail busting out of the brush without warning, you can hit a bear. The difference is, when you miss a quail, you chalk it up to their being difficult to hit. When you miss a bear, you're the one who get chalked up.

Modern leverguns are just as fast in the hand--if not faster--than pump shotguns. There's a cottage industry up here tricking Marlins out to be used for close range bear guns. Both hit very hard at close range. The difference is the shotgun is a much less effective hunting weapon because it's not rifled and the slugs lose much of their energy quickly. Roughly speaking, the slug shotgun is a 50 yard bear gun, the amped up big bore levergun is a 150 yard bear gun.

Also, the levergun is slab sided and carries differently from the tubular shotgun. Not nec. better or worse, just different. Leverguns tend to be handier for scabbard carry.

A Guide Gun or something similar with a ghost ring set up is a pretty fast and formidable weapon. I've got one myself with one of the WW Guns ghost rings on it. For my purposes, a shotgun is still a tad quicker and I don't need the extra range.

You make a good point though about going after a wounded or rogue bear - I think I'd prefer to have that extra range and a tube full of Buffalo Bores.

00 buckshot or 1 oz slugs will do the job up to 15 feet. If the first doesnt do it keep firing till the shotgun is empty if that dont work RUN!

a 30-30 win with 170 gr SP will drop a Grizzly faster then a shotgun, especially with 5 or 6 shots.

Or use pepper spray.

http://www.adn.com/2010/07/08/1358700/bear-attacks-bikers-on-resurrection.html

Bear attacks trio of cyclists on popular Kenai Peninsula trail




(07/08/10 11:18:30)

Three mountain bikers who were knocked down by a brown bear on the Resurrection Pass Trail were able to escape with minor scrapes on Tuesday.

KTUU-TV reports the cyclists came across the bear sow with cubs at Mile 7 on the popular Kenai Peninsula trail.

One of the bikers used bear spray on the bear. She left, and they rode back to the trail head, where they met a Forest Service crew.

The Forest Service has posted a bear warning on the trail.

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I would say a one ounce slug would be about the best bet other than a magnum rifle round like 375 h&h or 9.3 rimmed.

A few thoughts on Bears. I have taken Black and Brown Bear. In 95 I got a permit for Brown Bear in AK. It was when I saw my first big Brownie, that I began referring to Mister Bear.
There is a world of difference between hunting any Bear, and defending yourself against said Bear. It is true that if you wound a Bear, the Bear is going to be pissed off, and might even attack you. However most wouned Bear slink off into the woods and now it is your dangerous job to track and kill it ASAP.
It is when the Bear decides you are:
1. Good to eat and it is really hungry
2. A threat to itself or worse, it's cubs and it is going to eliminate that threat
Now is when your are going into Bear defense mode.
To kill a Bear at range you must hit a vital organ or organs and/or break major motive bones so the Bear is anchored.
To STOP a Bear when it has decided on 1 or 2 above you must make a central nervous system hit-read spine or brain hit. A bear with a broken shoulder can and will still kill you. You must shut down the CNS. Both the spine and brain are protected by masses of bone and muscle that must be penetrated by the projectile from either a shotgun or a rifle. One can see here that buckshot is out, it simply lacks the penetration except at point blank range, and when the Bear is at point blank range-so are you.
You will have to hit the relatively small brain pan, or narrow spinal area while said Bear is humping and swaying at about 30 MPH, or possibly a little faster, a motivated Bear can go over 35 MPH.
Obviously a heavy solid slug is needed, your call as to which. Mine is either a Winchester sabot round from a rifled SG barrel, or a heavy 45/70 like a 405 or 350 gr solid from Buffalo Bore or other botique ammo builder. I have a Ruger #1 in .458 Winchester that is also up to the job. The best bullet in the world is not going to hel you if it is not a CNS hit, remember I am writing about Bear defense, not hunting, although one can turn into the other rather quickly.
I suppose the 44 magnum handgun round would do the job with a heavy penetrating slug, ditto for the other big bore handgun with the proper load, but using a handgun might be a bit dicey when Mister Bear is pissed off.
ber are magnificant animals and I will not hunt them again, but I would not have missed the experience for the world, well, I might trade it iff for a real American President about now.

I vote "Mr. Bear" for president. Feed him a steady diet of Legislature types... and far left judges... Ehhh Booboo?

BushyGuy said:

00 buckshot or 1 oz slugs will do the job up to 15 feet. If the first doesnt do it keep firing till the shotgun is empty if that dont work RUN!

a 30-30 win with 170 gr SP will drop a Grizzly faster then a shotgun, especially with 5 or 6 shots.

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I seriously doubt a 30-30 does a better job on bear than a 12 gauge. A 30 caliber 170 gr bullet going around 2200fps is not nearly as lethal as a .72 430-ish gr slug going around 1600fps-1700fps.

The first thing i grab if i have to deal with a bear is my short barrelled 12 gauge loaded with brennekes.

OP. I prefer 2 3/4" Brenneke slugs, better penetration than Forster slugs. No buckshot. Sometimes they show at night so a light is a good idea. Try aiming a shotgun and a handheld flashlight at the same time. It sucks.

Some of those guys also use iron sighted rifles. I recall an old .375 H&H cut down to 20" in use by one biologist a few years ago. But, most of them now carry shotguns and nothing fancy or tactical, mostly short-barreled Remington pumps.

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It's a very comforting rifle to have when you're sleeping in a tent in the high arctic. Too much rifle for black bears except in BC, Yukon and AK.

Yes... A 12ga with either a slug or heavy buck shot will do the job if you do yours. My gun smith hunts black bear (granted they are eastern black bear, but bears none the less) with one of those Ruger .44 mag rifles that looks like an over grown 10/22. He says that it's all the fire power you need with almost non of the weight. He said he never had an issue with dropping one inside of 60 yards.

Smack the bear on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.

Harley Rider 55 said:

Smack the bear on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.

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Meanie!
Al

It's a lot like that 21 foot rule for handguns vs knives, except that a bear can run 40 mph while a man only 10 mph. So you have to extend that safety distance to something like 80 feet - 25 or 30 yards. And then, you have to hit him on the tip of the nose if you want a 100% guaranteed stop. The nose is a hollow funnel leading to the center of a bears brain and it will be pointed right at you.

Any reasonable round (yes, even a 10mm) can stop a bear with that CNS hit, so it becomes more of a question of what platform you deliver that round from within the 1 to 2 seconds you may have to make the hit. A scoped rifle would be blind luck though, you might argue that even a CNS miss might do enough damage to slow events and give you time for more shots. A handgun, again it would be blind luck to make that CNS shot with a much poorer chance of a miss doing sufficient damage to change the outcome.

The optimum choice is either a shotgun or big bore carbine (preferably with ghost rings). You have the best chance of making that quick CNS hit, and you still have plenty of power and penetration to (perhaps) change the outcome if you miss the CNS shot.

The bear that got me was within the swing of my rifle (Ruger #1) before I could raise it to my shoulder - it's that fast. And I reiterate, the rifle was in my hands, I was stalking a deer and yet the bears blindside charge from 10 to 15 yards was on me before I could get off a shot. I'd had another 1/4 second I might have got a shot off, but since the rifle was scoped it would have just been a blind shot.

Caliber wars are all good and fine, but when it comes to brown/grizzlies, speed and quick point/shoot accuracy counts for far more.

Everyone talks about 3" magnums for bear defense but what about the 2 3/4 Brennekes? Not everyone has a 3" gun. Will 2 3/4 Black Magics do the trick?

Even the old Foster slug in 2 3/4" is a .68 caliber 1 ounce projectile traveling at 1500 fps! So yeah, any shotgun slug will do. Some are better than others, but even the tamest is an incredibly devastating round at close range.