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12 GA 3in. slugs vs. grizz

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by flyboy1788, Nov 27, 2008.

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  1. flyboy1788

    flyboy1788 Member

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    I was reading an interesting post on here a few days ago about a 45acp 1911 vs bears and it was quite interesting. I like thinking about theoretical scenarios and I was wondering, how effective would 12Ga 3in. rifled slugs be on grizzlies or other large bears. Is this more than enough or are there certain things about slugs that would make it less desirable than other possible options?
     
  2. Jeff F

    Jeff F Member

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    A hard cast slug like the Brenneke slugs at close range would be very effective and would be my choice for defense against the big bears.

    Some will say you need a magnum rifle in a large caliber but at defensive ranges a 12 gauge pump will put a lot of firepower on a bear faster then a bolt action rifle.
     
  3. flyboy1788

    flyboy1788 Member

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    Jeff, thats what i was thinking as well, seeing as this is a theoretical "defense"/"im about to get eaten" scenario and not a hunting scenario, so naturally it would be at very close range.
     
  4. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    I would stay with 2 3/4" Brenneke's.

    One more round in the magazine, and not enough differance in power to make one whit of differance.

    And they don't kick quite as hard, so follow-up shots would be a little faster.

    rcmodel
     
  5. BADUNAME37

    BADUNAME37 Member

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    Yes, I think 12 gauge slugs would take out a large bear.

    Whether the bear attacks you in the process is another story.

    With the right shot(s), you might drop the bear. I'd take the 12 gauge slugs over most rifles.
     
  6. Lone Star

    Lone Star Member

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    I undrstand that the US Fish & Wildlife officers in Alaska are issued such shotguns for bear defense. I think they have 870's.


    Lone Star
     
  7. RyanM

    RyanM Member

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    Brennekes would be reasonably effective. Foster slugs, I'd bet almost anything against 'em. A lot of people who've hunted or guided professionally in Africa have said that Foster slugs are just about useless against charging big cats. Even against a leopard (which only get to be about 200 pounds tops), a Foster slug will, more often than not, just stick in the chest muscle if you shoot one from the front.
     
  8. Jeff F

    Jeff F Member

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    Foster slugs are made out of soft lead and most have a hollow base. I have seen foster slugs penetrate better then a .44 magnum. For any application where something is trying to eat me I'll stick to the Brennekes.
     
  9. flyboy1788

    flyboy1788 Member

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    Im not trying to discredit you RyanM, Im not doubting you've heard/read people say that, but I have a really hard time believing a 12ga forster slug would not penetrate past the chest muscle of even the largest cat at "danger close" distances of 50 yards and closer. 12ga forster slugs have been bringing down thousands deer of that size for decades, what gives?
     
  10. RyanM

    RyanM Member

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    It's mainly the difference between shooting from the front instead of from the side. From the side, Foster slugs are fine against leopards, and lions, because there's relatively little muscle there. Just the ribs, and a little bit of meat between 'em. From the front, you've got the pectoral muscles, plus those muscles are going to be tensed if the animal is charging right at you. Sort of like punching someone in the stomach by surprise, vs. if they're expecting it and tense up their muscles. End result is, when you're shooting an animal that's charging straight at you, you've got a whole heck of a lot more muscle to punch through, and much tougher muscle to boot.

    Also, you have to take into account the very poor sectional density of 12 gauge slugs. 437.5 grains and .729 caliber = 0.118 in sectional density. A .45-70 bullet (since 12 gauge is often compared to .45-70) with that sectional density would weigh only 173 grains, considerably less than your usual .45 ACP bullets! They basically have a sectional density more like a bullet that's expanded. And then Foster slugs soft lead and expand even more on top of that...

    On the other hand, Brennekes don't expand much at all, so they actually do perform pretty similarly to a .45-70 softpoint or medium alloy lead bullet that expands to about 12 ga. in diameter.
     
  11. flyboy1788

    flyboy1788 Member

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    Yea, i didnt really think about the sectional density issue, but it makes sense. More density=more penetration. more penetration is a big plus for big thick skinned game, but i just didnt think a 200lb cat would be that tough from the front. Sooo....12ga with brenneke slug=dead grizz. 12GA with foster slug=maybe a dead grizz, or a pissed off one that is now going to eat you, so why take the chance with a foster slug is basically what it comes down to.
     
  12. kgpcr

    kgpcr Member

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    12ga slugs are great but i carry a .454 Casull. 360grn Grizzly or Buffalo Bore bullets and feel safe with them. I can get to my Ruger Alaskan faster than i can unsling a shot gun and with Big bear its almost always close in and things happen very quickly
     
  13. flyboy1788

    flyboy1788 Member

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    i can unsling my shotgun in .05295 seconds:D This is all theoretical anyways, ill probobly never encounter a bear in my life, its just entertaining/ interesting to think about certain scenarios and to educate yourself just in case.
     
  14. JImbothefiveth

    JImbothefiveth Member

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    Why not see if you can get a bear skull, put it in a ballistics gel mold, and put a rug on top of that to simulate fur, and test it?
     
  15. dagger dog

    dagger dog Member

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    I remember a nature program on polar bears. They were talking to an Inuit tribesman, that had been attacked and survived. The ranger? that was called was shown dismounting from a helicopter and slung over his shoulder was a short barreled ,extended magazine, black stocked, shot gun and doubt very seriously that it was loaded with #8.

    That Brenneke slug is the bear stopper for sure that is if you can keep the bead from shaking if your behind the trigger!
     
  16. flyboy1788

    flyboy1788 Member

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    brilliant. do they sell all that at gander mountain?:D
     
  17. RyanM

    RyanM Member

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    Well, you can put a tac sling on a 12 gauge. I'm planning on slapping a single point sling on my Serbu Super Shorty, fairly soon. Only problem is I have to use the terrible factory grip to have a sling swivel.

    And I dunno, "African carry" is pretty quick to bring the gun into play, if all you've got is a regular sling. Weak side shoulder, muzzle down. Just grab the foreend with your weak hand, and bring it up to your shoulder.
     
  18. sbarkowski

    sbarkowski Member

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    While watching the Wild Network the other day there were a few show on Alberta bear hunting. All of the guides were carrying short barreled Novas with extended mags, and rifles on their backs. Im assuming they chose Novas because they are light and easy to carry on the long hikes they were taking. Dont know what they had loaded in them tho.
     
  19. JImbothefiveth

    JImbothefiveth Member

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    I think you can make a substance very close to ballistics gel with some water and gelatin. Don't know if they sell food at Gander mountain.

    Actually getting a bear skull should be a problem, that I should have thought of.

    But, maybe your local butcher would have cow skulls.

    And a rug, that's probably the one thing that would be available at gander mountain.
     
  20. flyboy1788

    flyboy1788 Member

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    Jimbo, you are funny:D
     
  21. wnycollector

    wnycollector Member

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    Last night before thanksgiving dinner we had a visitor. Our neighbors son was visiting from alaska where he is a tour guide. He wanted to say hi to my wife who was his HS social studies teacher.

    We started talking about camping and kayaking in AK. He told us that he has been charged by bears before w/ no harm done...but what scares him the most are moose! I of course asked him he carried with him when he was out in the bush. He carries a 5 1/2" Ruger blackhawk .44 everywhere and usually a 12ga pump loaded with Brenneke's.
     
  22. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    First off shooting a dried out skull is nothing like shooting a living skull still full of collagen, with living tissue, surrounded and stabilized by dense muscle. Even portions of the skull not surrounded by muscle have the vibrations that can increase shattering effects dampened by being in proximity to the muscle while being full of collagen and living tissue.

    So a skull is not a skull. Living skulls have very different properties than dead skulls.


    Second, you would think every US citizen lived near grizzly bears. This and similar questions come up at least once a month.
    In the lower 48 there is a little more than 1,000 total grizzlies. In Alaska a little over 30,000.
    There is over 301,000,000 people in the USA.

    So that means for every Grizzly there is close to 10,000 people.
    1-3 cubs are usualy born in a litter, and stay with thier mother several years, during which time she usualy will not mate or have any more cubs.
    So they have a slow population growth rate.

    If just 1% of 1% of the population or .01% of the human population in the US killed 1 grizzly within a 3 year period, they would be completely exterminated.

    If .01% of the population killed 1 grizzly in a 10 year period, they would be exterminated within a 20-30 year period.
    In fact the decline happens faster than just numbers show once they get below a certain number, because finding mates is very difficult.

    To actualy have a growth rate larger than a decline in thier population, very few can be killed in a given year.



    So defending yourself against any dangerous animal intent on doing you harm is important. It should be avoided though if possible.
    Yet people who live in cities across the country have this fascination with using a technological advantage to easily dispatch a critter they will likely never see in the wild, and which they could avoid problems with most of the time.
    In fact by understanding the bears body language and behaviors you can avoid most problems.
    A lot more than you can say for many potential human attackers that you are far more likely to face.
     
  23. RyanM

    RyanM Member

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    Well, sure. Tool use is what makes us human!

    Actually, that's kinda my theory for why football is so popular. It involves a few of the most important things that got humans to the top of the food chain. Running for a very long time, throwing things, and teamwork.
     
  24. 50 Shooter

    50 Shooter member

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    Foster slugs are strong, coming from a welding backround I used to weld scrap piece of angle iron together. I would weld the leading edge to the corner of another piece to make it as wide as needed and then cut it off for length.

    I used to make my own spinning targets this way by rigging them up on a length of pipe so that the would spin. One of my frineds of course shot the pipe and ended one of the spinners. Wondering what would happen if I shot it with a slug... I aimed for where the seam was between two piece and let it go... The slug went through 3/16" of steel like it wasn't there and this was from about 20 feet.
     
  25. earlthegoat2

    earlthegoat2 Member

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    First line of defense: Bear Spray

    Then you can reach for the street howitzer.
     
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