12 gauge and big bears

[Readyrod]

To RMc, I'm trying to stay away from a rifled barrel if I can, but I'll get one if I have to.
To OregonJohnny, I will most prob be living on Vancouver Island so I'll definitely be near the water. Plus I like the water. So it's a good chance I'll have some kind of boat. Plus, unfortunately, as I get older I'm getting worse about maintenance. Maybe a marine gun is a good idea. Can I use it for hunting bird with the short barrel? Also with the handgun restrictions in Canada it's prob better to have a shotgun for hd.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

some years back a fellow gave me some 12ga 3" Mag slugs as he sold his shotty to get a pistol for his wife.
I was fooling around one day and shot one endwise into one of the old concrete blocks, not a new cinder or 'laylight' block.
the slug went through the end hit the middle double web cracking it good but not penetrating. it knocked the block off the stump I set it on.
fairly impressive. that would surely do some damage to a brown bear's boiler room.

 

[lifebythehorns]

"Well, lets see RC, how are they superior. The 12 gauge Core-Lokt Ultra sabot bullet is a .58 caliber, 385 grain HP semi-spitzer. The catalog MV is 1900 fps and the 100 yard velocity is 1648 fps. The ME is given as 3086 ft. lbs. and the remaining energy at 100 yards is 2325 ft. lbs. The trajectory of that load looks like this: +1.8" at 50 yards, +2.4" at 100 yards, and +/- 0" at 150 yards.

Got the picture now"

hahaha this is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. If you did any research you would know that velocity and ME mean squat in real world applications dealing with penitration. Weight and sheer mass is what keeps that projectile going AFTER initial impact. Going on your thinking a ruger .204 is the best bear gun, its faster and shoots straiter than any of these mentioned. Ill take the heavy lead slug over some cheesy sleeved deer bullet anyday. And who cares about trajectory at 100 yards?!?!?!? If that bear is that far away from you when you shoot it in "self defense" your commiting a crime!

 

[kmrcstintn]

as far as finish, I think that most 'marine' shotguns are going to have extended mags and smoothbore barrels which negates the ability to just buy factory or aftermarket barrels and perform a swap...basically you got a defensive shotgun without the ability to be used as a platform for multiple purposes (eg: interchangable field barrel, dedicated slug barrel, shortened barrel with sights to hunt turkey; et al)

if you can take care of a blued finish with normal length mag tube which allows addition of multiple barrels later on, then I suggest a 12 ga Remington 870 Express; if you want the ability to use a shorter barrel with the option of interchangable chokes, then look at their 20" barrel w/ open sights; you can use a rifled choke to throw heavy sabot slugs short distances; you can get an improved cylinder choke for rifles slugs or Brenneke hardened slugs & have a slight tightening of buckshot for use as a home defense weapon; you can use an XXfull choke for turkey blasting;

if you want to use a dedicated slug barrel for hunting, then get a cantilever mount barrel, add a scope, use your favority sabot slug ammo and big critters within 100 - 125 yards stock your freezer; if you want to bird hunt later on, then add a field barrel with interchangable chokes

*** I'm doing something similar, but with a Mossberg 500 platform, but their 'short' barrels aren't very short at 24" length (exception is their security barrels at 18.5" but you get a bead sightand cylinder bore ~~no tightining of pattern); I got a combo with a 28" field barrel and a dedicated rifled barrel w/ cantilever mount for shooting sabot slugs; as I get more adept in hunting, I might add their .50 caliber muzzleloader barrel; I already plan on getting a short security barrel for home defense***

 

[oletymer]

Ha Ha Lifebythehorns it is obvious you don't know squat about controlled expansion and energy transfer.

 

[OregonJohnny]

Readyrod: "To OregonJohnny, I will most prob be living on Vancouver Island so I'll definitely be near the water. Plus I like the water. So it's a good chance I'll have some kind of boat. Plus, unfortunately, as I get older I'm getting worse about maintenance. Maybe a marine gun is a good idea. Can I use it for hunting bird with the short barrel? Also with the handgun restrictions in Canada it's prob better to have a shotgun for hd."

Readyrod,

It sounds like the 870 Marine would be a good choice for you. The Remington 870 is about as simple as it gets as far as maintenance, and with the finish of the Marine, it gets even easier. The 18.5" barrel is not ideal for bird hunting. It would work in a survival situation, but probably only at very close ranges. Plus the short barrel is a not threaded for chokes, so it's very limited. I believe the 870 Marine's main purposes are portability and putting buckshot and rifled slugs into large targets at close range in wet coastal environments with little maintenance.

The barrel can be easily swapped out with another 870 Express barrel. I think for general purpose bird hunting and clay pigeon games, a 28" barrel with 3 or 4 different chokes would be ideal (around $175 for Remington brand barrels). For things like pheasant hunting in South Dakota, there is no restriction as to the number of rounds held in your magazine tube, so this setup would probably be pretty fun. For waterfowl hunting, along with a longer barrel, you'll want to install the plastic plug that comes with the shotgun to limit your magazine capacity to 2 shells.

Carefully check Canadian regulations on guns aboard your boat. I know it's impossible for an American to keep a gun aboard while in Canadian waters, unless you are transporting the firearm on your way to an official hunt. Also, make sure a shotgun with 6 rounds in the magazine is legal there.

The 870 is a fantastic shotgun and the Marine version is a great option if you're living coast-side. Good luck!

 

[Readyrod]

Thanks OregonJohnny. That's great information. It will make my decision easier. Six shells in a pump action shotgun is ok in Canada, but a barrel that is shorter than 18.5" inches is not. The Remington website says that the marine 870 is 18" so I may have to go for the Mossberg as they say it is 18.5", even tho I kind of prefer the Remington. I don't know about marine regulations so I'll need to check. Thanks again.

 

[Mainsail]

Make sure the first shell is a dragon's breath, the bear will leave a smoke trail as it runs away.

 

[OregonJohnny]

I don't know why Remington would list it as 18", and in some promotional pictures of it, the barrel looks 1/2" shorter than the magazine tube. But I can assure you, my barrel is perfectly flush with the mag tube and measures in at exactly 18.5".

 

[CSA 357]

I have a old mod 12 winchester that shoots 1 oz winchester slugs realy good, its cut down to 24 inches, i have taken deer with it, it holds 7 shells, i wouldnt want to have to but i would use it on a bear if i had too, 1 oz slugs penatrate more than a 44 mag , i know this from shooting 1/4 steel plates, the 44 mag wont even make a blimish on it! The 1 oz slug wont go threw it, but it will bend the hell out of it! I would love to be were there are big bears, i have read they can be hard to stop, i guess the only danger here in north alabama woods would be man, csa

 

[Readyrod]

Remington marine, 18.5" barrel, sweet!!!!! I also like the 870 express deer with the smooth bore as it has rifle sights and is cheaper. Thing is the marine magnum is better for weather and it looks cool.

 

[-v-]

One item I'd like to bring up is either a semi-auto shotgun or an over/under. Rational being, when a hungry bear is wanting to make you his next snack, you want as few things to have to fiddle with as possible. A pump-action is liable to be short-stroked, whereas an over/under or a semi-auto would be a point and shoot.

Perhaps something like a Saiga 12 or a Rem 1100 would suit your needs well, but since this will be up in Canada, your mileage may vary. Sure they are heavier and require more upkeep, but they are relativley simpler to operate, and the action does help to soak up some of the impulse energy making followups a little easier.

As for ammo selection 1 3/8th oz magnum slugs. 3" are good, 3.5" magnums are even better. Are they going to absolutely positively suck shooting? Hell yes. But, it will take a lot to stop a charging grizzly in its tracks in one shot, and one shot may be all that you will have time to fire.

With that, Brenneke makes their 3" 1 3/8th oz "black magic" magnum slugs for this. ~660gr at ~1500fps is nothing to scoff at, and would probably do a good job of "breaking" a bear in one or two shots. Hopefully before the gun breaks you !

 

[Hollywood Marine]

It once took me four shots with a .444 Marlin to stop a brownie. They are really hard to stop! That said, the above post recommending 3" magnum slugs gets my vote too.

 

[-v-]

One other thing I was thinking, since this is Canada we're talking about, I seem to recall that it is OK to own something like a 14.7mm PTRS vintage WW2 anti-tank rifle and ammo. If you can get your hands on one, I think that might also make a formidable anti-bear gun. If said cartridge could pierce 30mm of steel armor at 500 meters, I think the results on flesh should be equally if not more impressive.

 

[Readyrod]

I'm trying to keep the collection down to as few guns as possible to start. I'm thinking mini 14, (or maybe bolt action .223) .308 bolt action, and 12 gauge pump action as my basic setup. The pump action is because of restrictions on semi auto magazines in Canada. The consensus seems that the .308 isn't good enough for big bear protection so that's why I was wondering if the shotgun would do the job. I get the idea it will, especially if I choose the right ammo, like the Brenneke slugs. As CSA 357 says, if it can bend the h*** out of 1/4" steel plate it's gotta hurt a bear. I hope.
Hey OregonJohnny I'm going to ask the weather coating question on another post cause I want to ask some other stuff too. Thanks for the info.

 

[Rourke]

I would feel pretty secure carrying a 12 gauge.

As stated earlier - 3" shells would be recommended.

Take care all - Rourke

 

[JImbothefiveth]

You might want to look at some of these slugs. http://www.dixieslugs.com (keep in mind I have no bear hunting experiance, I just know some of these are intended for dagnerous game.

 

[Readyrod]

Those are some pretty kick ass looking slugs.

 

[tango2echo]

Ok,...let me chime in here. I was a bear and big game guide in four Canadian provences, and I have guided in the lower 48 in a number of states. That being said, one of my favorite guns for bear country was/is a short barrelled Mossberg 835 12ga 3.5" with an extended mag tube. Loaded with 12ga 3.5" 1oz slugs I can tell you it will kill a 500# wounded black bear right f-ing there! That gun has saved my life a few times, and IMHO is superior to any handgun you can carry. However, if your intent is to hunt up north, then I would suggest something of the .338 Win Mag size or larger. The shotgun is a last ditch defense gun, not a hunting tool.

T2E

 

[Readyrod]

Tango2echo, thank you. You said exactly what I wanted to know. I don't really want to hunt them, I want defense. I'm going to ask a big round hunting question later. Please feel free to chime in then too. Thanks again.

 

[Fishman777]

Hmm...

I've seen a couple of recommendations that are not actually legal in Canada.

Handguns are probably not going to be a legal option, nor are the higher capacity shotguns. I believe 4+1 is legal in a shotgun or rifle, but nothing more.

 

[tango2echo]

Regulations on capacity vary widely from provence to provence and even from area to area. You CAN own a pistol in Canada with the right paperwork.

T2E

 

[PJR]

Shotgun capacity rules in Canada are nationwide. 5 rounds in the magazine for a semi-auto, unlimited in a pump. Barrel length limited to 18.5 in a semi but a pump can be shorter IF the barrel isn't cut and came that way from the factory. 14" pump guns are very popular up here and treated no differently than any other shotgun.

There is a 2+1 limit for migratory bird hunting which is also nationwide. There are some capacity differences in hunting regs from province to provice for shotgun-only deer hunting.

An Authorization to Carry a handgun in Canada is very difficult to obtain even for wilderness carry.

 

[tango2echo]

Have you ever tried to obtain a handgun in Canada? The 1996 Firearms Act made it harder but not impossible. My Mother in Law, a school teacher, had little difficulty obtaining a 9mm Glock for "personal protection and target practice." She lives in downtown Ottawa near the Rideau canal and Parliement.

Do you understand that the Authorization to CARRY is different from the ability to OWN? Many people in Canada OWN handguns, but very few may CARRY them on their person.

You are correct on shotgun capacity laws. Pumps are unlimited to the best of my knowledge in all provences. You will find that Parliment has passed many gun laws since 1996 that have not been applied in all provences....Consult you local bi-law office or RCMP for clarification. In parts of Ontario it is still a maximum capacity of 10rds,....even though "provential law" states 5 rds for autos and higher for pumps. I had no problem obtaining and using a magazine extension for the 835 that brought maximum capacity to 8 2.75" shells when I was in Kapuskasing. There was a recent documentary on APTV about whale/seal hunting. If you watch it you will see that nearly every person has a hi-cap mag in a mini14 or mini30, or a shotgun with a tube.

If you do your homework you will find where some of the Aboriginal groups, the provence of Alberta (back in 1996 and again in 2001), and the Nunavut peoples have all recently challenged the Canadian Supreme court of the right of Parliement to inact gun laws.

In many of the rural areas of Northern Canada you will find few gun laws ACTUALLY exist.(i.e. are inforced) I carried a .44mag SRH openly for years without a permit and was only once asked about it by a RCMP officer. He asked if I had a permit. I said "no, I am a bear guide". He said, "oh, eh...ye ever had to used dat ting?"

You are correct on 2+1 for capacity for migratory bird hunting. That is pretty much anywhere in Canada or the USA.

You are correct on the many differences in provence to provence regs for shotgun only deer hunting, and it varies even more in how it is enforced and by whom.

In a nutshell, this is just like any other gun law. You have to double and triple check your facts and then make sure they apply in your specific area, and your intended operation.

So, back to the original poster, you should have little trouble obtaining a magazine tube extension for a PUMP shotgun, if you so choose, for bear protection.

T2E

 

[tango2echo]

Sorry, I kind of went off on a tangent there. It just erks me when people start taking about what they "believe" a law to be when they have little actual experience in that area.

My apologies to the original poster and the moderator.

T2E