12 gauge and big bears

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Readyrod

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I know that this gets talked about a lot but, as far as I've seen on the threads I've seen, whenever someone brings it up it turns into a rifle versus handgun versus shotgun debate. I like hiking in bear country as well as other places. I also want to do some big river trips up north when I get back to Canada. As well, I want to live in a small community near the wilds when I get back (from Japan). In all these places it's real easy to run into bears, which has already happened to me a lot. I'm planning to get a .308 for hunting. I don't want to hunt bear. I just want bear protection. (yes I will carry bear spray, but I want a little more insurance than that) I'm planning to have a 12 gauge smooth bore pump action in my collection and I'm wondering if I can rely on it to take out a big (meaning grizzly or polar) bear that's looking at me as lunch. What would be the effective range, with respect to aim/accuracy/stopping power? How many shots would it take? What kind of slug should I use? As for shot placement, I imagine it would be easy to place a shot on a bear that was still or moving slowly, but I've seen them running (thankfully away from me, so far) and they tend to bounce around a lot when running. I'm sure I could hit it running but I can't guarantee which part I would hit. I'm thinking that a slug or two (or three maybe) would cause enough damage to stop him.
What do you think guys? Should I use a 12 gauge for big bear defense?
 
I'm sure you're going to hear everybody chastizing you for not relying solely on bearspray. I'll attempt an answer to your query though. If you are going to be toting around a carbine length firearm, why not make it a rifle? It will surely get the job done, provided it's legal to carry in the place that you will be walking through and if it's a powerful enough cartridge. Personally, I'd prefer a combination of bear spray and a 1911 chambered in 460 Roland, tucked away in a nice incognito holster, but that's only cuz I wouldn't want to lugging a shotgun or rifle around in the park for a mere nature hike. I'd think that the shotgun would be iffy depending on the distance, and the type of ammunition/powder charge of your preferred shells. I personally wouldn't risk my life on finding out.
 
12 gauge will work fine at close range, but you gotta be fast with it. I'm another that'd rather have my handgun on my hip for portability, in my case a hot loaded Blackhawk in .45 Colt. Danged thing could be on top of you before you have a chance to put the shotgun into action. It's the same reason I prefer a short barrel handgun for checking out bumps in the night. I don't have a .454 Casull or I'd prefer that. :D Only bear country I hike in, though, is black bear country, so I don't have a real need for more caliber, but I do want a Freedom Arms .454 some day just because. Hell, when I've hiked, most times I've just had a medium frame 4" .357 magnum on me loaded with 158 grain SWCs. I really think that's plenty for anything I'll bump into in New Mexico or Arizona or Texas. Likelihood of having to use it is near nil anyway and bear spray is kinda goofy for black bears. You can normally scare 'em off. Browns, well, I'd probably want some. If I lived in big bear country, I'd probably be saving for an X frame, too, or that Freedom Arms in .454. I really like Freedom Arms revolvers.
 
No reason at all it wouldn't work just fine.

That's what the Alaska Fish & Game guys use.

(Notice I didn't tell you to get a .460 Weathery, .500 S&W, or an SKS!)

rc
 
Since you're talking about Canada, a handgun is more difficult to obtain there, so the shotgun makes sense. I hunted Northern Alberta last year and depending on where you're hiking, black bears were more prevelent in the area I hunted. Unless you're going to be hiking near the Arctic Circle, polar bears aren't that common, but are there.

In Alaska and the Northwest Territory, they use 12 gauge shotguns and rifled slugs for bear protection all the time. Just practice with the gun and load to make sure you're familiar with both.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
Your going to get a zillion opinions, none of them are wrong, most are partly right!
To stick with your original questions, take a look at Rottweil (?) slug loads maybe found under the name Brenneke also. They are slightly smaller in dia. than other slugs made for smoothbores, and a LOT harder lead alloy. The slug (rifled) also sports a more pointed tip.
A freind told me of an instance when multiple slug rounds were "shrugged -off" by a brown bear in their camp. He was in a canoe approaching the camp and the critter was mauling their poorly stored ice-chest to get to the 2 liter Coke bottles! He stated that they hit it 2 or 3 times with traditional 12ga. slugs broadside - don't recall the distance, but he said the hits were visually obvious and the bear wasn't giving up his Coke until multiple shots hit him near the shoulder area.
I am very reluctant to believe that story 100%, the adrenaline and age of the teller were at opposite ends of the scale. If there is any thing to be taken from it, the message is that common slugs don't have great penetration power. I have seen 3" mag slugs mushroom and stop with NO PENETRATION against the door of a 70's Chrysler New Yorker from about 25 feet. Bears aren't cars, but, if I'm going to shoot at one (not to protect an ice chest!) the goal is to kill it before it kills me or one of my party.
Second hand quote from a Coast Guard guy stationed on Kodiak Island for search and rescue: "A lot of the dead hunters we find from bear attacks had a pistol in their hands or nearby".
A revolver is good to have, but if an attacking animal is too close for a short-barreled shotgun, it will likely do some serious damage to you even after being hit. Big bears are tough to kill, and are noted for continuing a battle even when mortally wounded, then after putting down their adversary (you) they limp away and die.
AK Fish and Game Dept. has some good info. on shot placement /advice for bear hunters. The recurring message in their info. is make sure your shot placement "breaks down" the bear. This means shoulder or spine shots to anchor it where it's at -nobody likes a wounded bear. Their bones are huge and tough. Furthermore, their skulls are thick and brain not too big!
The first bear I bagged was a 6' black, pulled the first shot and hit the spine between ribs and hip. It fell/squatted only long enough for a quick follow up shot on the front shoulder, hitting the heart and breaking the far side bone in two. First hit paralyzed, but only the back half, not the front half with the dangerous parts! The first slug was totally absorbed into the spine, no exit, no breakage of bone!!! That was a 175gr. from factory loaded 7mm Rem. mag. at ~ 150 meters.
That is just my own experience illustrating the toughness of the smallest of the 3 bears you may encounter in northern country.
The effective range of a smoothbore 12 ga. isn't great. Again opinions are heavy on this, but I would guess ~50 meters or less for accuracy and not much more than 75 for good stopping power on a big bear. It could benefit you greatly to try some different types of ammo to see what gives best accuracy, be ready for a sore shoulder!
 
Our neighbor is a hunting guide in the yukon and in northern saskatchewan, he has used several different bear defence guns and sticks with the one that saved his life. A 12 ga. short barrel 870 full of slugs. It was near dark and was looking for a wounded bear his client shot. He never saw the bear comming till it was almost on him and he shot it in the eye, the bear dropped just infront of him, his legs gave out and he hit the ground beside the bear. His hands trembled the rest of the day! Luck shot?
 
They are far superior to the lead slugs for soothbores.
Click to expand...
How exactly is a 350 grain .45 pistol bullet in a plastic sleeve far superior to a 437 to 460 grain 12ga Brenneke slug, making a 3/4" hole, with over 2,400 ft/lb energy?

rc
 
the bear wasn't giving up his Coke until multiple shots hit him near the shoulder area.
Click to expand...

I didn't give up my Coke until after the doc told me I had to, if I wanted to see my grandchldren.

Seriously, if you really want a 12 ga. check out this neat little shotgun, and it comes with a pistol grip. It's an excellent Chinese copy of the 870.

http://www.canadaammo.com/product.php?productid=11&cat=0&page=1

If it were my choice, I'd choose a S&W X-frame 460ES, much handier than even the shortest shotgun.
 
If I were asked to go hike alone into the middle of brown bear country (not black bear, we have black bears in my parents back yard) and I was not allowed bear spray, and I had my choice of any conventional easily-obtained firearm to take with me, I'd choose my 870 Marine. I've put so many thousands of rounds through an 870 that it feels like an extension of me. My follow up shots with an 870 are faster than with any of my revolvers or rifles. Loaded with 6+1 Brenneke slugs and always held at the ready, I'd be much less inclined to mess my pants than if I were armed with a .454 Casull handgun. I think a magnum bolt-action rifle is a far better choice for hunting, but lightning-fast follow up shots would take A LOT of practice. From everything I've heard, a brownie charging at 35mph from 30 or 40 yards away leaves you hardly any time to react, but if your firearm is at the ready, and you can cycle that pump and pull the trigger rapidly in your sleep, you might get lucky. You could do a lot worse than a short barreled 12 gauge pump gun with Brenneke slugs, that's for sure.
 
Well, lets see RC, how are they superior. The 12 gauge Core-Lokt Ultra sabot bullet is a .58 caliber, 385 grain HP semi-spitzer. The catalog MV is 1900 fps and the 100 yard velocity is 1648 fps. The ME is given as 3086 ft. lbs. and the remaining energy at 100 yards is 2325 ft. lbs. The trajectory of that load looks like this: +1.8" at 50 yards, +2.4" at 100 yards, and +/- 0" at 150 yards.

Got the picture now
 
Myself, I would pack my 500 Magnum 4" barrel in my Desantis leather holster.

I'd probably use some kind of hard-nosed bullets, like flat points and at least 450 grain.
 
Good info guys. The reason I'm thinking shotgun is because in Canada only licensed trappers and licensed professionals working in the bush can carry a handgun for protection. It totally sucks and is a law that was obviously made by people who don't go out in the bush much. I've met people who carry anyway but you don't want to get caught. My hunting rifle is going to be a .308, I think, and I don't want to buy another one just for bear if I can avoid it. That leaves the shotgun. I have nothing against bear spray and I've always thought that it would be good under certain circumstances. Whenever I've seen black bears I just yelled at them and they ran away, no problem except that twice I didn't notice the cubs. That could have ended badly. The one time I ran into a grizzly (with a cub btw) I just got back into the helicopter. Lucky again that the helicopter hadn't left or I would have been toast. I want something that packs a punch for that time when I'm not so lucky.
 
Since you will be using a 308 to hunt with why not make that your bear gun as well. As long as it is quick handling it should do fine. Or opt for a 45-70 levergun with some hot ammo like the stuff form buffalo bore. Wont need an extra bear gun if the one your using is a bear gun.
 
I got into this on another thread and the impression I got was that a .308 wasn't big enough for big bear. Remember I don't really want to hunt them, just protect myself. I'll start shooting when I think I'm in danger, which would be shorter ranges and prob running bear. I'll get rifle sights for the barrel for accuracy. I'm going to make a post on the rifle pages about rifles for big bear (cause I'm not 100% decided yet) but please feel free to fill me in here. Ultimately I want to be safe. That's the most important thing.
That guy with the coke that 7mm mentioned wasn't in trouble but the same situation with the bear eating your food or destroying your camp in the middle of a one month river trip might be tricky.
 
It is common practice in bear country to hunt with a bear rifle irregardless of the game being pursued. True, a 308 may not be up to the task. A 300 WinMag may be though. As well as anything bigger than that. I am a proponent of not carrying two heavy guns. One is plenty and if it works for the game animal and defense all the better.

Onto slugs now though, I would honestly load my own. There really isnt any other viable choice. All the sabots are made for light skinned game. Most of the foster styles are too soft or not enough penetration. The Brennekes are good I have heard and these might be an exception. If you lathed down some solid copper rod to barrel diamter to .72-.70 inches and loaded it into a standard wad for 1 1/4 oz shot and gave the slug a nasty point or perfectly radiused round nose you would have a penetration monster. I have never done this but I have loaded my own slugs before and the theory is sound.
 
Hey OregonJohnny, (or anyone else) can you tell me more about the Marine 870? I was thinking about the 870 Express Deer with a smooth bore but since I want to bring it hiking and on river trips I was thinking it might get wet and dirty. Maybe a marine shotgun would be better. I imagine the shine to the gun would rule it out for hunting though. Does it need any special care. Is it really a lot more weather resistant? How about the Mossberg Mariner?
 
Readyrod,

The finish on the 870 Marine is not shiny. It isn't exactly a dull matte finish, but it isn't what I'd call shiny or reflective. I think that the 870 Marine and the Mossberg Mariner along with other "marinecoat" shotguns were designed for use in salty corrosive coastal environments. The added benefit of the finish on the 870 Marine is that the coating seems to work as a natural lubricant. The bolt is coated as well and it's very slippery while working inside the chamber, even when it's bone dry. This shotgun may be overkill if you don't plan on ever using it within 50 miles of salt water, but it sure is nice looking even if you don't! Mine is primarily a home defense gun loaded with 6 rounds of 00. But since I'll have it forever, and do a lot of shooting near the coast of Oregon, I figured I would pay the extra for the Marine.
 
If a pump 12 ga is what you want get a rifled barrel for it. You then can use the hardcast, heat-treated (30+BHN) full bore slugs. They are far superior to swaged lead slugs or sabot rounds in what you need most - penetration!

RMc
 
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