Detroit police station shooting - thoughts on strategy

Number one, the video requires registration to view. Please post a synopsis of any video link posted here, as some will not wish to register to view the video, and others will have a connection speed that cannot manage video.

This is a police station, not a typical office. Not having seen the video, I cannot say whether all or most of the people present in the police station in question were armed- but I would expect that to be the case IN A POLICE STATION. And I would expect all or most of the people at work there to be not only armed but trained to some degree as well.

In the vast majority of offices, occupied by mere citizens, firearms concealed or otherwise are strictly prohibited. I'm the first to advise not being too gun-centric, but IMHO the best defense against an active shooter is rapidly delivered, accurate, effective return fire.

So, what do you do when you can't have a gun and an active shooter shows up?

Well, it would seem to me that having considered the possibility, as unlikely as it might be, would be a good starting point. Getting frozen by 'the paralysis of analysis' while wrapping your mind around the idea that, yes, someone has come into your office and is now shooting people is not the best way to start coping with the event.

So where do you go from there? Much would depend on what your workplace would allow you to carry without getting fired if your defensive tool(s) were made known or discovered. Can you carry pepper spray? Blades? Sticks?

More important than what tools you are allowed to carry is 1) what you are willing to do despite your disadvantages, and 2) how well you can use the tools you do have? In other words, is your mindset up to par, and is your skillset with the tools you do have, all that it should be?

And perhaps the major question- do you have any choice about actually engaging the shooter yourself? Have you been seen? Can you escape/evade and depart the scene unnoticed? Can you escape notice long enough to survive the event, if you cannot escape the scene itself?

lpl

ETA - There's a non-nanny (no registration required) post of the video at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=48e_1296250832 . So I've seen it now.

Think that desk needed a double barrell 10Ga. under it like W.E. had under the gaming table at the Oriental Saloon.....

A bad situation all around. Very little cover, shotgun vs handguns and a highly motivated attacker.

I am honestly surprised the bg was able to gain access to them so easily. Even in my small town both police and sheriff offices have glass partitions and security doors. You have to be buzzed through to get past the lobby and you can not access the clerks at the counter, everything goes through a security drawer.

As far as applying this situation to an office setting I feel it would turn out even worse. Most offices are made allow the most efficient movement. There is little blocking the aisles so that employees can move freely. There is very little real cover and most businesses will not invest in hardening the place unless they deal in a high risk business. Hardening an office is an expensive investment with little return since the chances of scenarios like these are not highly probable.

If you can carry at work do so. If you can't carry have other means of defending yourself, and a plan to escape if things go south.

If someone has a shotgun out and at you, your options are pretty bloody limited.

Stay low, find cover, keep firing.

I am honestly surprised the bg was able to gain access to them so easily. Even in my small town both police and sheriff offices have glass partitions and security doors. You have to be buzzed through to get past the lobby and you can not access the clerks at the counter, everything goes through a security drawer.

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Community policing gone awry?

http://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?p=detroit+police+shoot

You should be able to see that video... It's all over the net if you search for it. WOW is all I can say... Keep moving, keep to cover or concelment, stay in the fight, never quit, throw anything you can get your hands on...... I would say they did well considering.

Something everyone who has been in combat or a gunfight when action happens it happens quickly.

9mmepiphany said:

I'm shock a place like Detroit would be so behind the times.

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You're shocked? Obviously you haven't been to Detroit lately. To compare it to a third-world country is very offensive to third-world countries. There is no money to modernize the police stations. Kwame took it all.

have you been there,done that ?

I saw the video and have been shot at,they did an amazing job of not only surviving but prevailing.

Until you have had rounds fired at you,you do not have any idea how you react or act.

Its was not pretty = BUT it was a win for the good guys.

AND no loss of life for them either !.

That Commander was THE hero and took the fight face to face with a shotgun .

If that aint above and beyond the call of duty - then ask the average LEO if that is what he/she signed up for !.

That should be shown to all duty and any that THINK they want to be LEO.

It makes the expression "routine" totally gone from the LEO job.

If that aint above and beyond the call of duty - then ask the average LEO if that is what he/she signed up for !.

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It's what they signed up for -- even if too many lack the mindset for it, either having never really had it or having lost it as part of general complacency after too long on the job.

Please note that regarding the guy taking several hits and not being immediately stopped - as of the last I knew (4 -5 years ago), Detroit PD is required by department policy to only use FMJ ammo. I doubt it's changed since then.

Some comments on the video in no particular order:

1) The cops were lucky the guy didn't know what he was doing. He had a 20 ga. and birdshot. The resulting investigation found a semi-auto 7.62x39mm rifle at his house. Had he went in with the rifle and some body armor this would be a totally different story. To quote a friend, "I fear the day someone with skill goes off the rails."

2) The Commander stayed in the fight. He might not have had the best tactics in the world, but he didn't give up after being shot a few times. I'll repeat, HE DIDN'T GIVE UP.

3) BG takes multiple handgun rounds. It is around 10 seconds before he goes down. It makes me reconsider that P32 I was thinking about.

4) The officers all seem to start out in condition white, the BG starts blasting and the police are on defense the whole time.

Going from a normal day at the station to all out combat in seconds is something I've never experienced, thank the Lord... I do have a few thoughts from lots and lots of armed encounters that never needed shots fired and one that did. Most of us just aren't prepared for the transition from normal conditions to possible defense, to full out action.... and that built in lag time can render you an easy target. That's the reason a fully blooded armed individual has a built in advantage against an armed opponent. Once you've been down that road you just won't hesitate the way someone who's never fired a shot at a live target will (that was certainly the case for me).

The best first response is the move to cover (something that will stop a bullet), if no cover is available then going to the ground or floor to make yourself as small a target as possible works for me. Face it - John Wayne is dead (that's what we drilled into our officers during survival training). Staying in the open and shooting back leaves you with very bad odds... that sort of stuff looks good in movies but is not your best response. If at all possible exit the danger zone while planning your counter attack. If no other option exists then not only fight back but attack if at all possible. No matter what the outcome keep fighting, your will power to stay in the game and never give up is your best chance of surviving a "no win" situation. Without a gun doesn't mean without a weapon. Anything at hand might make the difference. At close quarters, a gun is more of a club than a firearm. None of this is much fun to contemplate but anyone who carries a gun (ordinary citizen to professional) needs to think about their likely responses in this kind of situation. Pray these tactics are never needed since the good guys don't always win....

One other item to consider. I've been in enough bad situations to learn that you can never reliably judge how your companions will react to sudden dangerous encounters. The fit, well conditioned individual that panics and is no help to anyone - the quiet librarian type that turns into a tiger when the need arises. Each person's response will surprise you - even your own.

Wedge said:

He had a 20 ga. and birdshot.

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I did hear on the news that it was a 20 gauge, but I didn't hear anyone specify that he was using birdshot. Can you point to where that's been printed? Or are you just trying to start another birdshot/buckshot debate?

I view this as another positive story about guns.

A bad guy intent on killing attacks others. He could have chosen molatov cocktails or dropping bricks off a building onto them or a carbomb. However, the would-be victims were able to successfully fight back with their sidearms and survive and win.

Another note - we should resist the temptation to further build a larger police state by barricading the public servants (police) behind massive walls of concrete and bullet resistant barriers and armored vehicles etc.

Hardened buildings mean that they are just vulnerable in their squad cars. Next the squad cars will become heavily armored military style vehicles. Then they'll need full body armor, etc.

The main failing here is situational awareness. Why did several officers fail to see a man walk in with a longgun to the point where he could get off a shot before they reacted?

Mr. Wedge you have the observation totally correct, they are all in condition white. I prefer to be aware of any and all in my enviroment. Body language is a big factor in police work. Just because you are at the station do not get complacent.

2WheelsGood said:

You're shocked? Obviously you haven't been to Detroit lately. To compare it to a third-world country is very offensive to third-world countries. There is no money to modernize the police stations. Kwame took it all.

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Actually I live in Detroit. The police stations have been "modernized" for aesthetics wasting resources we did not have. Our police force , unfortunately, is woefully undertrained. Kwame tried turning Detroit into a copy of Chicago in more ways than one. He closed a lot of precincts including three in my immediate area replacing them with "Districts" removing the police force even farther from the population they are supposed to be policing, both physically and emotionally.

Hard to know what to expect when sitting behind a desk at a police station house. It is not uncommon for someone to walk in with a gun for a number of reasons and not all persons intend to do you harm. You cannot be at a heightened sense of awareness for an entire shift, that is called hypertension. A partition or greeting area is needed to screen visitors. Time and cover are your friend. Any amount oftime that can be added to the required reaction time is a good thing. I worked at a station house that it was less than 18 feet from me and the front door. Not even enough to stop a knife attack according to the old 21 foot rule. My solution was to put one of my cops facing the front door as a greeter. It was his job to pay attention to who is coming through that door while I attending to the business of the Precinct. But I was the only one that did that, other supervisors did not see the arrangement as a problem. FWIW

2WheelsGood said:

I did hear on the news that it was a 20 gauge, but I didn't hear anyone specify that he was using birdshot. Can you point to where that's been printed? Or are you just trying to start another birdshot/buckshot debate?

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Good question, I have not been able to find the ammunition used. Based on the commander being shot in the back I will assume birdshot. Buckshot for a 20 gauge is also difficult to find (at least it was on midwayusa). Winchester and Remington both has 20 gauge buckshot, #3 buck, 20 pellets per cartridge. Even if buckshot , the shooter had access to a 7.62x39 semi auto RIFLE. His choice of a Mossberg 500 20 ga. helped save the police officers lives, I should have highlighted that it was the 20 gauge vs. rifle in his attack that was important.

http://www.freep.com/article/201102...ing-died-multiple-gun-wounds?odyssey=nav|head

Shooter was shot 5 times. FIVE (2 well placed, 3 not well placed). It certainly makes me question a mousegun against a determined individual. I believe he goes about 10 seconds before succumbing to the well placed shots if you watch the video.

Wedge said:

Based on the commander being shot in the back I will assume birdshot.

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It was my understanding that he was wearing a vest, and the vest is what they claim saved him. But admittedly I haven't been following the story as closely as I could be.

Buck is a possibility, but for the 20 gauge I think it is unlikely. In any case a vest would stop both pretty easily, #3 buck from a 20 is something like 20 pellets, each around 36gr going ~1200fps.