Documented longevity: Glock, Sig, S&W, etc...

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I prefer SIGs to Glocks as far as ergonomics are concerned. But I would not want to drop one of my SIGs. If I did, I would worry about it continuing to function properly until it was thoroughly checked out. But I would not worry about a Glock being damaged if dropped. Or tossed against a brick wall, kicked across a concrete slab or immersed in a muddy lake for a day or two. Probably would need a good cleaning and the plastic sights replaced but, otherwise, it would be good to go.

If you want I could try and find it again but these people torture tested a P220 and one of the things they did was drive construction equipment over it and even "ground" it into the ground by turning a 30+ ton treaded construction equipment over it. After that, only the grip was cracked but it still functioned perfectly. A quick trip to the ground wouldn't harm a SIG.
 
...and a long, hard throw against a brick wall won't harm a Glock either.

Geez, guys! I said the SIG is my favorite autoloader. I'm not putting down the freakin' SIG.

Besides, the question concerned longevity, not short term reliability. We sorta got off track.

jmr 40 said, "Alloy framed guns will be extinct in my lifetime I believe." Man, I wish you a long life. But I don't think the durability of the alloy will make them extinct. More than likely, the cost of production will cause manufacturers to move more and more toward plastic formulations in firearms and eventually forego production of alloy framed guns.
 
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There is a cop that posts on m4carbine.net that has over 300,000 rounds through on his Sig 229 in .40. Every part has been changed at least once except that fragile aluminum frame. :confused:
 
There is a cop that posts on m4carbine.net that has over 300,000 rounds through on his Sig 229 in .40. Every part has been changed at least once except that fragile aluminum frame. :confused:
There's always an exceptional specimen, however a singular experience is just that, singular! Head to head, polymer is always going to trounce aluminum alloy, it's just a fact of physics, one born out by the fact that 70% of American cops carry a Glock.
 
Seriously? Are you familiar with the torture tests the US Gov't put Sig's through during the evaluation of pistols that ended with the M9? And with the fact that the Sig was, along with the Beretta, the only one to pass all the absue tests? You think the SEALS issue Sigs to their team members without being confident that they can withstand some pretty rough treatment?

Almost all of the modern generation of true service pistols are incredibly durable and abuse-tolerant. They have to be to get through selection processes. Glocks are not exceptional in this regard.

I see what you're saying, and yes it makes sense, but a lot of people say the same thing when comparing other guns to Glocks. Here's the problem, people always claim that their XD's, or their M&P's, or their Sigs or HK's, etc are just as reliable or more reliable than a Glock. Well yeah I'm sure when properly maintained and maintenanced most any current gun on the market from any quality, established manufacture will in general be every bit as reliable as or better than any given Glock. But how about when you can't maintain the gun properly are these guns going to be as reliable as Glock have been show to be in crappy situations? IDK because it seems that every time someone does a torture test on a semi-auto pistol it's almost always a Glock they are demonstrating on. It seems people are too scared to risk hurting their XD's, or M&P's, or Sigs, or HK's, or whatever else. I want to see what those guns will do when subjected to the same treatment that people have used to demonstrate how well a Glock can handle abuse. I know SIG's and M9's are reliable guns, but what did the government subject them to? The government also adopted the AR15, but if you're stuck in the mud for who knows how long and you can only have one rifle would you chose a AR15 or a AK47? You see what I'm getting at? I've had cops tell me about how during their training their instructor rides up dragging a Glock behind his truck threw the dirt, and picks it up and empties a magazine right there. It sounds like it must be routine, but I want to hear about them doing that with a Sig, or a M&P, or a XD.(if any LEO's even use XD's)

When people always claim their guns to be as reliable as a Glock I call BS. I mean it may be, but the proof is in the pudding, and until someone can show proof that any other model gun can hang with a Glock while be subjected to the same abuse and mistreatment that's being subjected to a Glock then those claims hold no water IMO. I understand your guns are not likely to have mud, sand, and dirt dumped into them, or get ran over by a truck or whatever, but surviving these types of things and still functioning is part of reliability.

Here's a popular Glock torture test. If someone can show me another gun that can survive what this gun went threw all while having it's round count then I will be impressed.
http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90

I'm not saying there aren't torture tests posted for other guns out there, but I haven't seen them.
 
It's design that imparts durability, consider: Sig Sauer P226(56-parts), CZ75(70 + parts), Beretta M9(62-parts), HK45(58 + parts), average 1911(50 + parts) are all highly durable, well regarded pistols, all have at least 50 parts, some more then 70!

The Glock 17 9mm has 34.....
 
No alloy framed semi-auto will be able to even approach the durability of polymer, so Sig's are toast, as are alloy framed 3rd generation S&W's....It's one of the big reasons we have so many polymer framed pistols to choose from, Glock rightfully leads the way....
We have more polymer framed pistols because they are cheaper to produce. It costs more money to cast or forge a steel or alloy framed gun. That said, I would trust the durability of a steel framed gun over a polymer, but a polymer over MOST alloy framed.
 
We have more polymer framed pistols because they are cheaper to produce. It costs more money to cast or forge a steel or alloy framed gun. That said, I would trust the durability of a steel framed gun over a polymer, but a polymer over MOST alloy framed.
Thats only partially correct, what sealed the deal with US LEA's is the virtual indestructability of polymer v steel & alloy framed firearms coupled to it's relative inexpense, polymer is just as superior v steel as it is aluminum alloy.
 
Not to start a fight, but I can destroy a Glock. I have seen in person a Glock have a case head separation and crack the frame, barrel and slide. I was at the range when it happened. A friend of mine had a case head separation with a Springfield 1911. It stung his hand and blew the mag out of the bottom. He was shooting again the next day. He did, however, have to work through a pretty tough flinch. I wasn't standing there when the pistol blew, but I saw the case and heard the story.

Sorry. I don't buy the polymer is stronger than steel argument. I have seen the results. Lighter? Sure. Durable? Absolutely. But not as strong as steel. Not when a gun that suffers the same malfunction is junked and another metal framed gun survives.
 
Thats only partially correct, what sealed the deal with US LEA's is the virtual indestructability of polymer v steel & alloy framed firearms coupled to it's relative inexpense, polymer is just as superior v steel as it is aluminum alloy.

Why would that matter if typical service life for pistols issued by police agencies is 5 years?

The real reason why police depts adopted polymer in the 1980's was because the guns were cheaper to purchase and cheaper to service. That they also came in "high capacity" was also a plus. Glock then sweetened the deal even more by offering very favorable trade-in programs that other manufacturers could not afford.

You are under the misunderstanding that police agencies procure general-issue pistols based on longevity.
 
IDK because it seems that every time someone does a torture test on a semi-auto pistol it's almost always a Glock they are demonstrating on. It seems people are too scared to risk hurting their XD's, or M&P's, or Sigs, or HK's, or whatever else. I want to see what those guns will do when subjected to the same treatment that people have used to demonstrate how well a Glock can handle abuse.

Those guns generally cost a bit more than Glocks, at least for the guns that have been through military trials (IDK about the M&P or XD). The individual owners of the other guns may simply not want to mar the finish on the other guns. One of the great things about Glocks is that they are ugly to start with and easily replaced, so people are OK with them getting cosmetically damaged. (Same with lots of Ruger guns.) That doesn't mean that the other guns won't perform just as well.




I know SIG's and M9's are reliable guns, but what did the government subject them to? The government also adopted the AR15, but if you're stuck in the mud for who knows how long and you can only have one rifle would you chose a AR15 or a AK47? You see what I'm getting at?

What you appear to be "getting at" is that you are totally unfamiliar with military ordnance trials, and with the story of the M16's adoption. The US ordnance department, like most military ordnance departments, buried guns in sand, water, mud, fired huge round counts without maintenance, etc. This information is all publicly available.

The M16 is not a contra-example. The adoption of the M16 was the result of the usual ordnance procedures being circumvented by McNamara's defense department, who felt that getting more modern technology to the battlefield quickly was more important that the thorough, methodical, protracted procurement processes usually followed. Look at the weapons that the US military had adopted prior to the M16 - almost all were overengineered and very robust: M1 Garands, M14's, M1911's, M2 heavy machine guns, etc. There are many examples of those still firing today despite being 50, 80, or 100+ years old. The M16 teething troubles were the result of skipping the typical torture tests. Since then, the approach to small arms acceptance has gone in the other direction and become even more demanding.


When people always claim their guns to be as reliable as a Glock I call BS. I mean it may be, but the proof is in the pudding, and until someone can show proof that any other model gun can hang with a Glock while be subjected to the same abuse and mistreatment that's being subjected to a Glock then those claims hold no water IMO....I'm not saying there aren't torture tests posted for other guns out there, but I haven't seen them.

If you want to ignore the vast quantity of military testing and call "BS," that's your call. Glocks are very reliable, and an impressive feat of engineering and materials science. But I don't think they are at a different level than service weapons.

Some of the reasons there are so many amateur torture tests for Glocks is that they often were not involved in military trials (militaries still want safeties, for the most part), and because when they came out in the 80's, many people were skeptical that polymer could be as durable as metal. Early adopters made a point of showing that the Glocks were as reliable as other guns, and it just became a "thing" with Glock fans. That's fine. But remember that some guy on youtube might have tested 15 Glocks and only shown/posted the footage of the one that came through, and never mentioned the other 14. I'm not suggesting that people are really being deliberately misleading, but they usually have a point to make, and are going to find a way to make it. If you want to trust youtube strangers over the military trials, that's fine, but it's hard to defend from a rational point of view.

Bottom line: Glocks are very reliable. So are a lot of other handguns. If you want to believe that Glocks are unique in their reliability... well, people believe all sorts of things.
 
Those guns generally cost a bit more than Glocks, at least for the guns that have been through military trials (IDK about the M&P or XD). The individual owners of the other guns may simply not want to mar the finish on the other guns. One of the great things about Glocks is that they are ugly to start with and easily replaced, so people are OK with them getting cosmetically damaged. (Same with lots of Ruger guns.) That doesn't mean that the other guns won't perform just as well.

It's not just individual owners who've done these extreme abuse test on Glocks. I agree that Glocks are ugly guns, but I don't enjoy scaring mine up. Besides M&P's look pretty good, but XD's are in no way an attractive gun either. They might not look as bland as a Glock, but one reason I've never been fond of them is because I have a hard time taking them seriously as they look cartoonish, and silly to me. I just think they're a stupid looking gun. I don't think their a bad gun or anything I just really don't like their look. In general I think Americans produce much better looking guns than Europeans. But enough with cosmetics if people want to claim that their XD's, M&P's, Sig's, HK's, etc are just as reliable, and hold up just as well to abuse as well as a Glock then somebody needs to post proof of this as it is a totally bogus claim as it's totally unproven.

What you appear to be "getting at" is that you are totally unfamiliar with military ordnance trials, and with the story of the M16's adoption. The US ordnance department, like most military ordnance departments, buried guns in sand, water, mud, fired huge round counts without maintenance, etc. This information is all publicly available.

The M16 is not a contra-example. The adoption of the M16 was the result of the usual ordnance procedures being circumvented by McNamara's defense department, who felt that getting more modern technology to the battlefield quickly was more important that the thorough, methodical, protracted procurement processes usually followed. Look at the weapons that the US military had adopted prior to the M16 - almost all were overengineered and very robust: M1 Garands, M14's, M1911's, M2 heavy machine guns, etc. There are many examples of those still firing today despite being 50, 80, or 100+ years old. The M16 teething troubles were the result of skipping the typical torture tests. Since then, the approach to small arms acceptance has gone in the other direction and become even more demanding.

You know I understand the M16 was pretty much forced on them, but here almost 50 years later the basic design is still in uses with no sign of retirement as far as I know. So if you lived in the mud and you could have a AK47, M4, HK416, or SCAR which would you rather have?

If you want to ignore the vast quantity of military testing and call "BS," that's your call. Glocks are very reliable, and an impressive feat of engineering and materials science. But I don't think they are at a different level than service weapons.

Some of the reasons there are so many amateur torture tests for Glocks is that they often were not involved in military trials (militaries still want safeties, for the most part), and because when they came out in the 80's, many people were skeptical that polymer could be as durable as metal. Early adopters made a point of showing that the Glocks were as reliable as other guns, and it just became a "thing" with Glock fans. That's fine. But remember that some guy on youtube might have tested 15 Glocks and only shown/posted the footage of the one that came through, and never mentioned the other 14. I'm not suggesting that people are really being deliberately misleading, but they usually have a point to make, and are going to find a way to make it. If you want to trust youtube strangers over the military trials, that's fine, but it's hard to defend from a rational point of view.

Bottom line: Glocks are very reliable. So are a lot of other handguns. If you want to believe that Glocks are unique in their reliability... well, people believe all sorts of things.

I don't ignore service testing. I now the Military heavily tests there equipment B/F buying it, and that it's very good reliable stuff, but I'm just going to be honest with you that yes it's my opinion that Glocks will hold up better than Sig's or M9's(which the U.S Military uses) at being dry, or being caked up. If that's an incorrect opinion then I'm just wrong, but whereas you want to keep your M9 well oil that is exactly what you don't want to do with a Glock for example. In fact there are very few places on a Glock you do oil, and the place you do oil you oil very lightly on them, and Glock designed it like this because oil attracts dirt and things of this nature. This is where I feel that Glocks excel over many other gun designs is they don't require near the maintenance that most others do to stay functioning unless you're firing lead bullets or something. Glocks will happily function when they are dry, and dirty. A Glocks a pretty loose gun. You shake a Glock that's had a few hundred rounds put threw it, and you will defiantly hear the firing pin rattle around, and the slide will have a little side to side wiggle to it.

BTW I'm not some blind Glock fanboy. I mean I'm a fan of Glocks, but I own three pistols and only one of them is a Glock. I'm not a Glock collector. I'd rather own 4 or 5 1911's or CZ75's than I would 4 or 5 Glocks. One Glock does the job. The only other Glock that I care to own that I don't have is a Gen3 G19 as I just think it's an excellent all around do it all gun. I like guns in general and would rather own several different types from several different brands instead of owning a whole bunch of one brand of ugly/foreign gun. Still if push came to shove, and I had to choose one brand of handgun to be thrown into a crappy situation with then it would be a Glock every time. I've just developed that trust in them over other guns. People can say what they want to(as there are as many people who want to and try to find/invent reasons to hate Glocks as there are Glock fanboys) but Glocks are proven guns, and more so than their competition.
 
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Can't speak to official testing but my bases are covered for our wants and needs with about a dozen Glocks, and several conversion barrels.

That being said, there is nothing like the feel of a 3rd gen. S&W, IMO. My 1076 will leave me in our estate planning as will the S&W 9 Pro.

The torture tests I've watched on Youtube with Glocks is pretty much a sealed deal sort of testimony. I'd try a Sig but they're so damnned expensive and only come with 2 mags? Spare mags are like 50-$70? Oh well...
 
Glocks are proven guns,

Agreed.

and more so than their competition.

Disagree. You are entitled to your opinion, but claims of "proven" are implicitly about empirical evidence. There is ample empirical evidence supporting the robustness of many of their competitors.


You know I understand the M16 was pretty much forced on them, but here almost 50 years later the basic design is still in uses with no sign of retirement as far as I know. So if you lived in the mud and you could have a AK47, M4, HK416, or SCAR which would you rather have?

I'd rather have one of the piston guns. In large part because the military testing keeps showing them to be much more reliable in adverse conditions. Budgetary constraints, weight concerns, and other things prevent a move away from the DI AR. The torture testing of the military is definitely robust enough to detect/reveal the inherent differences in reliability. I think this example proves my point (that military testing is better than casual youtube or even police department testing) rather than yours (which appears to be that military testing doesn't outweigh your own surmise).
 
There was a Glock rag ten years ago or so, printed by them, extolling the virtues of their pistols. A few stories were interesting:

One pistol, stolen at the ATL airport and missing for several years, was found under a dumpster with the slide locked back. For years, it sat this way in the elements, getting gunked up with garbage juice. They sent it back to Glock, who cleaned the garbage juice out and replaced the recoil spring and it worked fine.

Another was used in a murder or crime and was found years later after a ditch was dredged or cleaned out over another incident. Glock got this one back too, cleaned it up and replaced some springs and got it working.

Yet another was lost in salt water after a guy dropped it off his boat. A year or so later he went back and got it, it was all crusty, but Glock offered to give him a new pistol if he sent it to them. They got that one working easily too.

In all cases, they needed springs or minor parts.

As for how many rounds... I've seen all kinds of torture tests. Some where they put them in a rig and are set up to fire until the fail. I recall one that went 75,000 before a failure.

I have a Gen. 2 G17 that has been rebuilt by the factory once in the late 80's, used all through the 90's, then I got it in the '00's. I've shot thousands through it and had to replace a channel liner that finally failed. I've broken some guide rods too. But they are tough pistols, I have six. Never intended to be a Glock guy, but when I needed a good pistol for such and such, I just gravitated to them as a tool. Fine work of firearms art they are not, fine tools they are.

Compared to other pistols, I trust the 3rd gen. Glocks more than I trust revolvers. They just work. But Glock is having problems with the 4th gen stuff and those ambi mag releases, stay away from those. I'd say a Hi-Point is more reliable than the 4th gen. stuff.
 
My two Gen 4 Glocks have been flawless,and I shoot them alot.Have you shot one?575769[/ATTACH]"]http:// lasttrip003.gif
This pic was taken after a 500 round day.
 

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Disagree. You are entitled to your opinion, but claims of "proven" are implicitly about empirical evidence. There is ample empirical evidence supporting the robustness of many of their competitors.

What are you talking about? What other pistol world wide is used by anywhere close to nearly as many military's and law enforcement agencies as Glock? CZ 75, or Sig maybe? Lets be real not very many semi-auto pistols have been put threw the ringers and used for their intended purposes as much as Glocks have.

The torture testing of the military is definitely robust enough to detect/reveal the inherent differences in reliability. I think this example proves my point (that military testing is better than casual youtube or even police department testing) rather than yours (which appears to be that military testing doesn't outweigh your own surmise).

Your problem is you can't surmise past U.S Military testing. I hope you or anyone else isn't foolish enough to believe that the U.S Military not seriously considering Glocks is because they just can't pass their reliability testing. Glocks lack external safeties. I don't believe the U.S Military desires this. Also until recently when would the U.S Military have tested a Glock for serious use and for what purpose other than understanding a gun they don't use? BTW I could be wrong, but don't many USAF fighter pilots fly armed with G19's?

Another thing people keep claiming that the reason so many LEO's carry Glocks is because of politics and the cost per unit. BS if that was the case then they'd be carrying Hi-Points instead of Glocks, Sig's, M&P's, etc. Don't get me wrong cost is a factor, but it sure as hell isn't "the reason" Glocks are so popular in Law Enforcement. They can get them for a fair price, they're extremely reliable, they're very durable, they're easy to maintain, they're simple use, they hold plenty of ammo, and they're proven. These are all reasons Glocks are popular in Law Enforcement. Besides it's not just Policemen who carry Glocks which people like to act like the cop handing out speeding tickets is the only one carrying them. Lets see U.S Marshalls, DEA, FBI, among others all use Glocks so they're not just some cheap, hokey guns that only gets used because of incentives.
 
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polymer is always going to trounce aluminum alloy, it's just a fact of physics, one born out by the fact that 70% of American cops carry a Glock.

Honestly, I'm not sure I put a lot of stock into this figure. Glocks are cheap to produce. Sigs aren't. It would be interesting to see what the special sale prices are to police departments. I wouldn't be surprised if the rock bottom dealer-to-police price for Glocks is $300 and the rock bottom dealer-to-police price for Sigs is closer to $600. If that assumption is true then the popularity of Glocks should be no surprise regardless of reliability.

As I said in my original post, this thread was meant to gather data from scientific empirically driven torture tests. Popularity statistics is a completely different animal with many confounding factors.
 
"Popularity" statistic? That's a good one! :D


Yup, Todd Green has done some hard work as shown in the link supplied by Mod.. When I started gettting into the M&Ps his testings were exemplary.

There are 2 different costs for LE Glocks: individual officer vs. department purchase. IIRC $369 is the cheapest agency price G37), but buying your own instead of turning it in is around $200, if that is an agency option.

More PDs use Glocks because the Glock Corporation is SUPER customer orientated in the LE realms of training, classes, advanced classes etc.. They work hard to get those contracts and keep them. I prefer the G19 for duty use for two reasons: less weight and less bulk. With all the kit and gear we haul around, getting in and out of cars all day/night, the last thing I want on my hip is a boat anchor. SIG offers similar training but not as often or as regional.

The longevity problem with Gen. 3 S&W autos is I believe S&W has stopped making parts for them. So, if you have an old and worthless 4506 TSW to get rid of just shoot me a PM. :scrutiny:
 
What are you talking about? What other pistol world wide is used by anywhere close to nearly as many military's and law enforcement agencies as Glock? CZ 75, or Sig maybe? Lets be real not very many semi-auto pistols have been put threw the ringers and used for their intended purposes as much as Glocks have.

Your problem is you can't surmise past U.S Military testing. I hope you or anyone else isn't foolish enough to believe that the U.S Military not seriously considering Glocks is because they just can't pass their reliability testing. Glocks lack external safeties. I don't believe the U.S Military desires this. Also until recently when would the U.S Military have tested a Glock for serious use and for what purpose other than understanding a gun they don't use? BTW I could be wrong, but don't many USAF fighter pilots fly armed with G19's?

You seem to be losing the line of reasoning, JROC. I have never said that Glocks are not reliable. Glock reliability is a given, at least in my book. What I am addressing are claims that Glock's reliability is unique, and/or that other brands have no equivalent evidence in support of their reliability. Those propositions are plainly false. The military testing (not only of the US, but of many other militaries) is great evidence on both those points. You are correct that the military testing is not evidence of deficiencies on Glocks; fortunately, I never contended that it was.

You have another straw man when you say that "not many" pistols have been through as much testing as Glocks. I don't know how many "not many" are, but I did not contend that all pistols are as reliable as Glocks. There are quite a few, however, and all or most of the major service pistols designed in the modern era to compete for military contracts are designed from the ground up to be reliable, since the manufacturers know that torture testing will be a big part of the procurement process. That would include Sig's, CZ's (BTW, I just saw a magazine story about torture testing the P-07, completer with mud immersion, drop tests, etc.), Berettas, various HK's, and various others.

Likewise, nobody has contended that the sole reason for Glock's LE popularity is cost. The point there was that Glock's price advantage often is a material factor in their adoption by various budget-driven agencies; that cost advantage means that one cannot read their popularity as being evidence that they are more reliable than their competitors. They surely are reliable, but so are their competitors; if the price-per-unit difference is significant, that's going to control the outcome. (Remember that the Beretta defeated the Sig for adoption by the US military on the basis of a $10-per-pistol price discrepancy - both had performed at the top of the reliability testing.)

I'll try to summarize one more time: Glocks are very reliable pistols. There are a number of very reliable pistols on the market. That reliability has been demonstrated repeatedly in well-controled, well-organized, scientifically-valid procurement testing by large numbers of militaries and other agencies. Glocks have done well in those tests (when they qualified), and so have other brands. There is ample evidence of "documented longevity" in the face of adverse conditions for multiple pistols. If you want to buy a pistol with reliability and longevity as your core requirements, a Glock is an excellent choice. It is not your only choice.
 
You seem to be losing the line of reasoning, JROC. I have never said that Glocks are not reliable. Glock reliability is a given, at least in my book. What I am addressing are claims that Glock's reliability is unique, and/or that other brands have no equivalent evidence in support of their reliability. Those propositions are plainly false. The military testing (not only of the US, but of many other militaries) is great evidence on both those points. You are correct that the military testing is not evidence of deficiencies on Glocks; fortunately, I never contended that it was.

You have another straw man when you say that "not many" pistols have been through as much testing as Glocks. I don't know how many "not many" are, but I did not contend that all pistols are as reliable as Glocks. There are quite a few, however, and all or most of the major service pistols designed in the modern era to compete for military contracts are designed from the ground up to be reliable, since the manufacturers know that torture testing will be a big part of the procurement process. That would include Sig's, CZ's (BTW, I just saw a magazine story about torture testing the P-07, completer with mud immersion, drop tests, etc.), Berettas, various HK's, and various others.

Likewise, nobody has contended that the sole reason for Glock's LE popularity is cost. The point there was that Glock's price advantage often is a material factor in their adoption by various budget-driven agencies; that cost advantage means that one cannot read their popularity as being evidence that they are more reliable than their competitors. They surely are reliable, but so are their competitors; if the price-per-unit difference is significant, that's going to control the outcome. (Remember that the Beretta defeated the Sig for adoption by the US military on the basis of a $10-per-pistol price discrepancy - both had performed at the top of the reliability testing.)

I'll try to summarize one more time: Glocks are very reliable pistols. There are a number of very reliable pistols on the market. That reliability has been demonstrated repeatedly in well-controled, well-organized, scientifically-valid procurement testing by large numbers of militaries and other agencies. Glocks have done well in those tests (when they qualified), and so have other brands. There is ample evidence of "documented longevity" in the face of adverse conditions for multiple pistols. If you want to buy a pistol with reliability and longevity as your core requirements, a Glock is an excellent choice. It is not your only choice.

You know I understand where you are coming from. I know there are some big headed Glockers out there who can't see past their guns. I don't like that because it makes other Glock owners look bad and gives a rep that people fond of their Glocks are arrogant, and ignorant. At the same time there are a lot of people who just want to hate Glocks, and want to bad mouth them for no real good reason, and look for reasons not to like them. Kind of like I don't like Chevy's. There's nothing wrong with them, and in fact GM makes great vehicles, but I'm just a Ford guy, and a Chevy guy might say the same thing about Fords. I find it very funny how the only place I see people who claim to not have a bias against Glocks claiming that their grip angle is just so out the ordinary and that they just can't shoot Glocks because of it is the internet. In fact I've let quite a few people who have pretty much no experience with a Glock handle or fire my Glock and almost all of them think it's a great feeling guns that point's very well, and I agree. I can shoot my CZ 75, and then go to my Colt Combat Elite, and then shoot my G20SF, and shoot any of them just as comfortably as the other. I will say that I feel the CZ 75 has the best natural feeling grip angle, but that's of pretty much any handgun I have experience with, and it certainly doesn't mean the Glocks grip angle offends me, but it's something people constantly bash Glock about, and IMO in most cases it's just people digging to find things to dislike and bash on Glocks about.

Now if someone prefers a different gun to a Glock, and they decide to go with something else then that's perfectly fine, and there's nothing wrong with that. I agree 100% that there are a lot of different really good guns out there, and many of them are very proven weapons. Still(and I'm not just talking about this thread) people always want to claim that their gun or that gun(whatever kind it is) is just as reliable or more reliable than a Glock. Well show some kind of proof. They don't compare them to Sigs, or HK's, or CZ's, or whatever it's always a Glock. When someone says that any gun that's been on the market for 4 or 5 years that's not been put threw the extremes that Glocks have to be just as reliable as a Glock well that's a pretty bold statement. Just because a factory gun fires every time the triggers pulled when a rounds chambered, and it chambers the next round in normal circumstances shouldn't be unexpected. Now if it can go threw 10/15K round without any kind of problems then that's good, but it seems like most modern guns will do that.

It's kind of like if some gun company comes out with a new pump shotgun which quickly gains popularity with people looking for a home defense shotgun and after 2 or 3 year you have people making claims that it's just as reliable as a Mossberg 500. That would be a pretty bold statement unless the gun had been tested and passed the same tests in poor conditions the way a Mossberg 500 has. Just because the gun fires when you pull the trigger with a shell chambered doesn't necessarily make it as reliable a gun. I mean it might possibly be, but before we make these claims lets see how it does with mud in it or after being buried in dirt or whatever. Before these claims are made they should be validated that it would hang with the Mossberg. That's what I've been trying to get at with the Glock thing.

BTW do you have any kind of link or anything to that P-07 test? It's actually the only other gun I'm considering for my next purchase other than a G19. I've become pretty fond of the CZ's since owning my surplus CZ 75. Unfortunately I haven't seen any P-07 at any gun stores or anything, but from everything I've read they seem to be a very good little gun.
 
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