M16 in Afghanistan

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The wounded enemy thing is just another rumor that won't die. Most of our enemies now a days don't have the ability nor the urge to care for wounded comrades. That being said the insurgents I fought in north eastern Iraq did evac their dead and wounded when possible. Maybe that's because they were Iranians according to the locals.
 
Oh, and one more thing: to all of those combatants, past or present, whatever rifle or caliber you were issued or prefer, thank you for your service, your sacrifice, and your commitment to your country and fellow citizens.
 
I think its time to say something here. I see a lot of people here talking about Astan and how the fighting is.
I am a soldier currently deployed to astan. (As is J) I am a line medic in an Light Infantry platoon. We walk anywhere from 3 to 15 clicks a day on patrols. I carry a M4 and standard load of 210 rounds of ammo on a normal day in "friendly" kalas plus aidbag. If we are going out into unfriendly places 300 min. We have 1 240L 2 saws and 1 EBR in the platoon. Those 4 guns go on every patrol so do I.
I have kept track of every firefight and wounded soldier marine ANA and local nat I have seen treated or in a few cases killed. Im in the front during contact and 3rd to last back in the gate so please dont try to tell me I dont know what I am talking about when I say that the M4 has no business here. The Taliban knows the range of the M4. My closest firefight took place front guy to front guy at 575 meters. Jtac and Fister both lased and agreed. Then we called in the 120s from the cop. My furthest took place at over 2K. Most are around 900-950 meters and at that distance unless it one of the machine guns or the EBR it is just lobbing rounds back and forth while trying to get lucky. Ive seen the wounds a 556 makes at a click. Didnt make it through a young mans calf and had almost no yaw. Ive seen the 7.62 at a click. Still a devastating injury.

When **** kicks off the 249 and m4s are used to suppress until the 240 or the EBR can get in position. That is really all. We aim we fire and we pray. Not much else to do. Guys fight to take the EBR when the gunner goes on R&R same thing with the 240. We want to be able to really fight and kill the enemy. In this war on this ground the 556 doesnt belong.
Simplychad
 
You rock SimplyChad. Medics are the best, no doubt. What province are you in? Afghanistan has a lot of differing terrain, and the locals build their villages and such accordingly. The tactics and effective weapons that are used in the grassy flatlands of Helmand are not going to be quite the same as in Wardak or Takhar. The layout of buildings, cover and concealment used by the enemy, differing altitudes between us and the enemy in the mountains vs. across a field can all play a part in which weapon will be best.

Don't answer if you feel it's a OPSEC violation. It's all good.
 
Your experience in your AO is different than the DM's experiences in their AOs that I speak with on a regular basis regarding this issue. They have no problems making kills at distance with the 5.56. None of the DMs I speak with still carry the EBR because it doesn't cut it. The 5.56 very much does belong on this ground and in this war.
 
SimplyChad, thanks for the perspective and your service. Do you think the M4/M16's you have around you could be improved with better optics or ammo, as some have suggested?

Cheers, and stay safe. SwArDad
 
While I have no experience shooting human targets, I would like to remind people that we are talking about a few different guns in this conversation, and they seem to be getting confused. A 62gr "2moa" (like m855) bullet out of a 14.5in barrel will have a very different "long" range performance than an 18in barrel accurized mk12 using a 77gr match quality round. And that is before we count in other factors like optics/training/etc.

I'm not saying anyone here is right or wrong, just chiming in to add some clarity.
 
ANA and local nat I have seen treated or in a few cases killed. Im in the front during contact and 3rd to last back in the gate so please dont try to tell me I dont know what I am talking about when I say that the M4 has no business here. The Taliban knows the range of the M4. My closest firefight took place front guy to front guy at 575 meters. Jtac and Fister both lased and agreed. Then we called in the 120s from the cop. My furthest took place at over 2K. Most are around 900-950 meters and at that distance unless it one of the machine guns or the EBR it is just lobbing rounds back and forth while trying to get lucky. Ive seen the wounds a 556 makes at a click. Didnt make it through a young mans calf and had almost no yaw. Ive seen the 7.62 at a click. Still a devastating injury.
tally agrees with Chad.
 
SimplyChad said:
I think its time to say something here. I see a lot of people here talking about Astan and how the fighting is.
I am a soldier currently deployed to astan. (As is J) I am a line medic in an Light Infantry platoon. We walk anywhere from 3 to 15 clicks a day on patrols. I carry a M4 and standard load of 210 rounds of ammo on a normal day in "friendly" kalas plus aidbag. If we are going out into unfriendly places 300 min. We have 1 240L 2 saws and 1 EBR in the platoon. Those 4 guns go on every patrol so do I.
I have kept track of every firefight and wounded soldier marine ANA and local nat I have seen treated or in a few cases killed. Im in the front during contact and 3rd to last back in the gate so please dont try to tell me I dont know what I am talking about when I say that the M4 has no business here. The Taliban knows the range of the M4. My closest firefight took place front guy to front guy at 575 meters. Jtac and Fister both lased and agreed. Then we called in the 120s from the cop. My furthest took place at over 2K. Most are around 900-950 meters and at that distance unless it one of the machine guns or the EBR it is just lobbing rounds back and forth while trying to get lucky. Ive seen the wounds a 556 makes at a click. Didnt make it through a young mans calf and had almost no yaw. Ive seen the 7.62 at a click. Still a devastating injury.

When **** kicks off the 249 and m4s are used to suppress until the 240 or the EBR can get in position. That is really all. We aim we fire and we pray. Not much else to do. Guys fight to take the EBR when the gunner goes on R&R same thing with the 240. We want to be able to really fight and kill the enemy. In this war on this ground the 556 doesnt belong.
Simplychad
Click to expand...

The right tool for the right job. I would agree that the M16 family is not the right tool for fighting at 575-975m. I doubt that a new rifle is going to improve your effectiveness at 1000m though unless you start issuing .338 Lapua AIs... though I bet the locals would be a lot more willing to close with you if you did that. I had to quote that whole post for all of the glorious contradictions to common sense it contained.
 
I like the concept of the Colt LE901.

Colt designed a single lower receiver that can accept a 7.62x51mm upper receiver or a milspec 5.56x45mm upper receiver.

The DoD has a huge inventory of 5.56x45mm upper receivers. The only change would be the lower receiver.

Looks like a great solution to me. A slight increase in weight of the lower receiver adds a huge increase in versatility.

A soldier could carry a spare 5.56x45mm upper receiver and share ammo with his squad if he ran out of 7.62x51mm ammo.
 
How much access is there to mk262?

While it might extend the range of the 5.56mm some, what good is it if no one can get some?

What's more common? mk262 or 7.62x51mm NATO?
 
Are you talking about for the military? I haven't heard of them having issues keeping mk262 supplied to their designated marksmen. If you mean to civilians, its somewhat harder to find, but there isn't much reason to use it specifically. How available is .223/5.56 75-77gr ammo? Really easy to find anywhere, and fairly cheap (even tula makes some). As civilians, we have access to hollow point ammunition, which completely changes a lot of the information in this thread.
 
SimplyChad;

Based on your observations I see an entirely different conclusion: our infantry is so effective the enemy can't get close enough to it to shoot at it effectively. The enemy stays so far away their small arms fire is totally ineffective, but our supporting fires are effective. I can't say this is due to the 5.56mm, but I can say it's far from a damning condemnation of that round.

To increase our small arms effectiveness at these ranges we could give everybody a SASR .50BMG, but I suspect the enemy would be happy to fight at 50m or less at that point.
 
I think Chindo18Z nailed it perfectly in an other thread - he's a member that has certainly done his fair share of fighting. Link to original post
Chindo18Z said:
Quote:
.......and there you have it
Click to expand...
Have what?

arching aks and RPMs
Click to expand...
Machine gun fight at machine gun ranges...hits with rifles are mostly random accidents. It's called plunging fire and is a function of beaten zones...not rifle sights. Hitting an area target like a COP, convoy, or platoon frontage of dismounts is fairly easy...with any rifle. The same is true in both directions...absent proper cover. Connecting aimed fire against individual targets from a great distance is a different ball of wax.

I spent quite a bit of time in the same RC East (long before it was called RC East) running an SF led guerrilla battalion of indigenous mercenaries. When we were engaged at 650+ meters...it was infinitely preferable to finding oneself in a fight at under 150 meters. At 650 meters, AK equipped bad guys are delivering AK harassing fire, completely imprecise and generally ineffective. My concern then was not with enemy riflemen. RPGs going 950 meters got my attention. PKMs arcing in from 750 meters got my attention. 122s, 107s, SPGs, & mortar fire got my attention.

Fire at me with an AK from 650+ meters...and I'll kill you with lots of different tools that are far better than a fire team's rifles. Fire at me from 650 meters with AKs and I know that one of two or three things is happening:

1) You are weaker than my force and afraid to stand for very long or...

2) You are a supporting fires position for the Muj I actually need to worry about...the ones who are attempting to flank me and get inside 150 meters while I'm distracted or suppressed by your long range fire. Or the ones reloading the crew served fire raining down on my position.

3) You are baiting me to move into your prepared kill zone.


I grew up on the M14, was a school trained sniper assigned an M21 for decades, and have a deep appreciation for a variety of Sniper Weapon Systems, but...

I could randomly grab most any US Infantry platoon in Afghanistan today, assign every single man an optic mounted M21 (or an M24...or an SR-25...or an M110) and be lucky to find find four Joes who could consistently and reliably kill someone at 650+ meters with rifle fire. Probably not that many.

We don't train our non-sniper/non-DMR guys to be able to hit anyone with a rifle at 650 meters. Issuing them a tool with that capability won't change the equation. Most folks using a MKI Eyeball can't even make the PID (Positive Identification) at 400 meters that would allow them to fire under ROE (Rules Of Engagement).

The idea that our infantry would somehow wreak havoc by having every man issued a 750-yard capable DMR gun is nothing but a load of crap. It simply would not work out that way.

It's about training more than tools. Give me a Sniper Section, say 4-6 trained shooters, plus spotters, C2, and security...and I'll give you a significant body count out at the distances where the mil-formula comes into play. While that's happening, I'll probably be dropping some 60mm WP, belt fed fire, and some 40mm Hi-Velocity on you to boot...neutralizing your cover...while adjusting a Call For Fire...and maneuvering against you. Maybe some AT-4, Javelin, or Carl Gustav rockets headed your way as well. Followed up by an AC-130, AH-6, or FA-18 Close Air Support strike.

In Afghanistan, at 650+ meters...I'm looking for your gunners and crews...not your riflemen. The AK armed riflemen hardly matter and don't have the ammo load (or accuracy) to keep up sustained suppression against my position or formation.

Death and wounds come in a lot of flavors. IED strikes kill from 2 meters. 107mm warheads kill launched from over 2000 meters. But, getting hit by 7.62 x 39 from 650+ meters mean you were just very unlucky...'cause the guy that fired it didn't have an actual sight picture on your chest. Getting hit with a belt fed machine gun at 650+ means that you got within the normal effective fire envelope of that gun...and didn't have cover. What's that got to do with rifle fire?

Issuing M14s or SCAR 17s to all of our guys wouldn't much change the inverse of that rifle fire equation either. It would just give them a much heavier load to hump, reduce firepower, slow down and degrade responsive fires during CQB fights, and limit unit ability to logistically sustain engagements. All for little (if any) return in terms of enemy killed.

People that are locked into an every-man-a-DMR fantasy do not understand how infantry combat actually works. There is so much more involved than than the range scale imprinted on your rifle's rear sights.

We issued a 500+ yard gun for years...the M16A2. It didn't work out so well in combat. I wonder why?

The single best thing we could do for Soldier rifle skills would be to force the Army to add USMC-style KD 500 yard qualification training (using M4s w/ both iron sights and optics). Do this as part of Basic Rifle Marksmanship during Initial Entry Training...for everyone. The weapon is capable. The troops are currently not.

The final half-klick has always been owned by the Infantry...but never through sole use of rifle fire.
Click to expand...
 
-v- said:
I think Chindo18Z nailed it perfectly in an other thread - he's a member that has certainly done his fair share of fighting. Link to original post
Click to expand...

Totally agree with this post. A piece of gear in untrained hands is useless. Training is the key. The right tool for the job is also key. There is no perfect weapon. It's always a game of give and take. Go put 70-100 lbs on you back for 10 clicks at altitude. War is not as simple as a single weapon. Shaping the battlefield, exploiting gaps in defense, etc. go into winning any battle (note I did not say war). Thats a different subject. The 5.56 is a capable round out to 500 in the hands of a Marine (nothing against other branches, again it comes down training). With good optics you can stretch that with training. Hence DMs are a little more effective at longer distances with the 5.56.
 
Wow chindo said it better then I ever could. And yes its true to the fact they dont want to fight us at a closer range because we would slaughter them. The enemy choose terrain that to move on them we either A) have to be completely in the open for several hundred meters. or B) have to move over a click to get to an area we can actually transverse just to come back. Plunging fire I knew there was a name for the arch of aks and PKMs on a wedge in the open as we walk away from the enemy. TTP's are simple really. Watch us leave the COP, wait until we stop in a town. Then try to set up along out exfil in a place that grants them cover and concealment over a place that gives us none. Sometimes its 2 guys with a RPG and ak. Others its 15 to 20 in a L shape with 3 PKM and RPGs and they begin the attack with a command wire IED.

As to air support which I love. A10s rule my AO. Its almost never here quick enough. 30 to 45 min wait in a TIC is an eternity.

As chindo said Im not sure if more training with the M4 would work but I know every rifleman with kills to his name in my platoon has them at more then 500 meters. I think we need a more capible round at distance tho. And better optics. At 800 meters through a 4 powered optic you can barely see who you are shooting at. Make the 6 elements not want to us air and arty.
Sorry if that turned into an Incohernet rant but its feels good to say that stuff to people.
Bartholomew what did you mean?

Simplychad
 
A10s rule my AO. Its almost never here quick enough. 30 to 45 min wait in a TIC is an eternity.
Click to expand...

In 2007, I was amongst some of the first F-15Es to pull CAS alert duty out of Bagram.

The Taliban had been used to the reaction times you're referring to for the Hogs, and they knew to try and break contact and get out of there before the A-10s showed up.

For the first couple months F-15Es were working CAS alert, we would show up to TICs in half the time it had previously taken A-10s, and caught lots of ACMs off guard with air support before they were expecting it. That led to lots of 20mm, GBU-12s, and GBU-38s dropped off the airplane.

There's lots of things that the F-15E can't do that the A-10 can...but it can sure get to the grid a hell of a lot faster!
 
And to think the A-10 was in the process of being retired when we were prepping for Desert Storm ( Desert Shield), in '91. "Obsolete" in the words of many on the Air Staff.
 
SimplyChad said:
Bartholomew what did you mean?
Click to expand...

To the extent you were saying that the M16 family of weapons is the wrong weapon platform for 575-1000m engagements, we agree. Which isn't suprising since that isn't a very controversial opinion.

However, from some of your comments I got the perception that you felt issuing a 7.62x51 general issue infantry rifle was a viable solution - even though several of your stories seemed to include enough evidence to show that would also be unsuccessful at those ranges - which again, isn't a big shock since connecting with the target is problem #1. I think Chindo18Z summed up the problem pretty well in the quoted post above.
 
Yes, the 7.62x54R is still used today.
After I posted the photo, we had another match at 500 meters. Several of my members use the AR15 issue type rifles and carbines and do very well with them out to 800 meters. Even the M-193 55 grain bullet will,on a calm day, hit the target 80% of the time.
I have seen this bullet become unstable in flight out of a 1:12 barrel past 500 meters and it is amusing to watch the sun reflect off of the "fish-tail" of the bullet wake as it starts to spiral in larger and larger circles as the velocity drops off and the centrifugal force tries to takes over. I wish I had a high speed video camera to capture the phenomenon.
I will say this about that, we shoot at almost 7,000 feet and the air is thin compared to sea-level. The sun is bright and there is no moisture to speak of. What we see down range is not like sea-levels 80% humidity. Bullets do strange things up here. Range is increased by at least 20%.
This 150 pound 3/8" cold-rolled steel plate was shot in one of my matches at 500 meters. The hole in blue is .30-06 AP that sailed right through the steel like it was not there. The round dents are 7.62x51mm M-80 ball. The two small deep craters are M-855 Ball out of a 1:7 twist, 20" AR15A2 . The penetrating steel nose's were laying on the ground about 10 feet away. Some of them stuck in the plate and left a large bulge on the back side of the plate.

AP3-1.gif
 
Yup, I'd say any one of those would ruin the HECK out of your day! Obviously the .30-06 packs a mighty wallop, but the 5.56 is right there, zipping along.

Thanks for posting!
 
I conducted a penetration test at 200 meters on a 5/8" thick cold rolled 250 pound steel plate. 20 rounds of M855 Ball out of a 20" 1:7 twist barrel. You can clearly see the damage the steel tip penetrator did as well as the energy transferred to the steel. The bullet is fully stable at this range and quite lethal to man and thin skinned machinery.

PLATE1.gif
 
I was in the US Army and I can say from experience...its not just the rifle, but the person shooting that rifle. We all have different abilities at range. There are some folks who can make a good hit with iron sites with an M16 at long range while there are others who cant hit the broadside of a barn with one.

It all goes back to practice and training.
 
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