So what rifles are being used in Iraq and Afghanistan?

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The Designated Marksman is more of a concept than a rifle. Initially, the East Coast and West Coast came up with different variants of a specialized M16 variant to serve in that role.

The trials (and there is a big PDF report on these somewhere out there on the net) showed two things:

1. The regular M16A4 was accurate enough to serve in the DMR role without additional modifications.

2. The DM was a great concept; but when it was only one guy per squad, he was often in the wrong location to be useful.

Those two ideas led to the idea that all Marine riflemen would be issued RCOs, though I don't know if they are still doing the specialized DM training for one guy per squad or not.

The SPR is a separate but similar concept used only in SOCOM and was born out of the Recce rifle idea (an M4 with just a tiny bit more long-range capability for spotters).

 

[HorseSoldier]

Yeah, from what I can dig up on these two, the M110 and it's variants have been problematic
and the modernized M14s are running without issue in the SASS, DMR and the new Counter IED role.

More M14 Koolaid drinking

It's weird how guys I know who've carried a Mark 11/SR-25 downrange seem to disagree with your "knowledge" of that platform, but would consider the M14 a less than ideal weapon for sniping/DMR work, for a whole slew of reasons. Weird also that KAC is cranking out SR-25s/M110s as fast as they can build them . . . but whatever. As always, there's little point in discussing such things with an irrational M14 fanatic who disregards any inconvenient facts and pretends they don't exist.

 

[Jeremy2171]

The SAM-R is used by the Corps. It is essentially an M16 A4 but they are built where the A4 is not.

The same with the Army's version (SDM-R). It is almost exactly the same as the SAM-R.

The MK12 is essentially the same as the above, but has an M4 lower, different hand guards, and some other modifications.

SAM-Rs are obsolete and turned in when they need any repairs. They have been (or soon will be)replaced by the MK12s. Our MK12s are NOT M4 lowers but old A1 lowers that are then built into the MK12s.

 

[C-D-P]

"Our MK12s are NOT M4 lowers but old A1 lowers that are then built into the MK12s."

I would be interested to know who you mean by "our MK12s"

The ones we are using are M4A1 lowers as indicated in the TM. There are a few different variations in use, so other contingents within SOCOM are using different variations.

As I understand it. AFSOC and USASOC are using KAC 2-stage in their lowers.

MARSOC is using the M4A1 Lower, and I am not sure about NAVSPECWAR.

 

[MD_Willington]

If you run across some Canadians, they may be hauling around a Tac .50 (LRSW)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Range_Sniper_Weapon_(LRSW)

Corporal Rob Furlongs confirm (record) kill is 2,43 kilometers with one of those.

 

[Onmilo]

This is some interesting information.

I am glad the M12 rifles are working out well enough for general issue.

It is stated that troopers are supposed to use the 77 grain ammo in M4 carbines.
Does that mean there are enough stocks in the field to go around or does that mean they are "supposed" to use it should they come across a can or two?

I have friends over there and that whole 7.62 AR rifle concept is not working out as well as some would have hoped.

Are M14 rifles still in the field with regular troops or are they being phased back again?

I have heard SEAL Teams are finding the M14 in great favor, especially with the 'green' bullets.
Green Beans seem to use them for some longer range work.

.50 caliber rifles work great at hardened static locations.
Toting one around in the field is a whole different game and the firing report is usually met with a pretty accurate mortar barrage that comes in faster than the shooter can pull back.
One shot is all the shooter will get with these blasters.

What say you?

 

[HorseSoldier]

The ones we are using are M4A1 lowers as indicated in the TM. There are a few different variations in use, so other contingents within SOCOM are using different variations.

Ours are all M16A1 receivers -- most of the SPRs I've seen and handled are Colt lowers, though I've seen one H&R lower. I'd suspect that Crane may have switched over to M4A1 lowers as the demand and build rate went up.

As I understand it. AFSOC and USASOC are using KAC 2-stage in their lowers.

Yep. I didn't know Crane made them without the two-stage trigger. (Though there have been problems with it.)

It is stated that troopers are supposed to use the 77 grain ammo in M4 carbines.
Does that mean there are enough stocks in the field to go around or does that mean they are "supposed" to use it should they come across a can or two?

Was that stated somewhere earlier in the thread?

Mk 262 is not general issue ammunition. Even in SOF units, most of the ammunition available is still M855 green tip.

I have heard SEAL Teams are finding the M14 in great favor, especially with the 'green' bullets.
Green Beans seem to use them for some longer range work.

If by Green Beans you mean Army Special Forces, then no, not so much. If at all. Some units may have some M14s laying around, but I've yet to meet anyone whose team carries one, either within my group or among the guys I've worked with from the other groups. Don't claim my experience is encyclopedic, but any M14 use is going to be extremely limited at best.

Toting one around in the field is a whole different game and the firing report is usually met with a pretty accurate mortar barrage that comes in faster than the shooter can pull back.
One shot is all the shooter will get with these blasters.

?

Accurate mortar fire from the bad guys seems to generally be pretty rare on a good day. Don't know why that would be different if shooting a Barrett than if just manning a FOB, etc.

 

[Joseph85]

So is the SAM-R/SDM-R/Mk 12/5.56mm Designated Marksman Rifle is more common than the M110 or modernized M14?

What's the difference between an M16A4 and the SAM-R/SDM-R/Mk 12?

 

[C-D-P]

"Ours are all M16A1 receivers -- most of the SPRs I've seen and handled are Colt lowers, though I've seen one H&R lower. I'd suspect that Crane may have switched over to M4A1 lowers as the demand and build rate went up."

Could be. Not sure, I can only speak to what we use.

"Was that stated somewhere earlier in the thread?

Mk 262 is not general issue ammunition. Even in SOF units, most of the ammunition available is still M855 green tip."

About two years ago (maybe longer) MARCORSYSCOM put out a message that suggested using it because it allows the M4s to keep lethality out to the same ranges as the M16 with M855.

"It is stated that troopers are supposed to use the 77 grain ammo in M4 carbines.
Does that mean there are enough stocks in the field to go around or does that mean they are "supposed" to use it should they come across a can or two?"

I have never seemed to have a problem getting some. Even with I was with an infantry battalion our 4 was able to get it for our M4 bearers. Though I am sure some may opt not to because of the PITA for issuing different types of ammo within each team sqd etc.

I personally haven't seen anyone using M14s since Haiti in 04.

"Accurate mortar fire from the bad guys seems to generally be pretty rare on a good day. Don't know why that would be different if shooting a Barrett than if just manning a FOB, etc."

Pretty much minute of mile accuracy. Hell In Fallujah when they fire IDF on the MEK a few of em would always be so far off they hit Baharia.

 

[Onmilo]

Are the bad guys any better with the RPGs?

The reason I bring all this up is because my opinion on the 1/2" bore anti-material rifles is pretty weak.
I feel the anti material rifle concept went out the door with the Panzer tank.

Give me a laser guidance system and the Air Force for taking out a radar installation and give me an M2 on a ring mount for anything light armor moving on the ground!

 

[pgeleven]

why use a m249 when you have a m-60 or m240?

im military personel, and i still dont understand the brass's logic...

try strapping on 45-50 lbs of gear in 125 degree weather and carrying the M240 up a 8 story apartment and be ready to breach... youll know why we still use the M249. or an average multi-kilometer foot patrol on same temperature streets.

IMHO, you may be military personnel, but youre not a ground-sider

Are the bad guys any better with the RPGs?

most RPG's are shot by local nationals who get paid or threatened to attack CF by the junta or militia. when you earn about $150 a year in your normal job, being paid $100 to shoot one rocket at a humvee is pretty appealing. long story short, most RPGs miss their intended target (at least in our AO)

and if your SOP/ROE allows it, you can carry an AK on patrol 'officially'. its uncommon to see one carried on a mission, but they are out there.

 

[Onmilo]

Thanks troopers, this info explains what we all knew anyway.
IEDs are the weapons of choice because the enemy isn't skilled enough to win any face to face shoot-outs.

Man, you aren't a real combat trooper if you can't hump a 240 and a combat load up six flights of stairs!
The real Afghani weapon of choice is the PKM machinegun and they hump these pigs up and down mountains like they are packing a .22!
Personally I would just as soon hump a hand held radio and a pair of Steiners up those stairs and call in air support.

Anybody going to ever admit anything about the chemical warheads?
Just had to ask!

 

[C-D-P]

"Anybody going to ever admit anything about the chemical warheads?
Just had to ask!"

Yeah a few were found. But they were really old. If there were any new ones you can bet that they were moved out during the six months of inspections and buildup.

 

[gtmerkley]

ak47 by both sides

 

[ZombiesAhead]

BrianB

I'm told that AK's are regularly used "unofficially" as well.

Who told you that?

gtmerkley

ak47 by both sides

Really? Anyone have a source for this?

I doubt CF (at least US forces) use AK's in combat. I imagine they would get in trouble for it.

 

[gtmerkley]

dwb.sacbee.com/24hour/special_reports/iraq/story

 

[[email protected]]

I'm not sure of the designation but a coworkers son got back about 6 months ago & was carrying an ar weapon but with a 10 or 11 inch barrel. again it's an AR just shorter barrel.

 

[Jeremy2171]

I doubt CF (at least US forces) use AK's in combat. I imagine they would get in trouble for it.

Correct...I know "some" guys who are out in the isolated areas working with the IPs and Border Teams "occaisionally" carry an AK but it's not authorized. There excuse is they only carry it for big ops that way all the ammo is the same...also the big one...it makes them feel "cool" to have an underfolder AK and say they carried one "out there".

 

[Onmilo]

I just saw a news report of Iraqi troops conducting a village sweep and they were all carrying M16A4 rifles except for the commander who was carrying an M4.
I guess it is just as cool for these guys to be packing US made weapons.

Could be that a US Trooper on perimeter guard won't pop a good guy by mistake too!

If I was way way out in the sandbox without support I might do the same thing and carry an AK and wear a shemagh too.

 

[Birdhunter1]

Couisin's husband is in Afghanistan now and he said they are using the M4, he sees several M16's and the M24 and the Barret 50 cal sniper rifle (He said that thing is fun to shoot).
He also told me since the Special Forces guys can do about anything wepons related alot of them leave their M series rifles at the base and go out with an AK47 for combat use. He did say they are well worked over before they use them but they always go bang, bang, bang! Also they carry alot of 1911 variants and he even saaw a .357 mag snubnose.

 

[LeibstandarteAdH]

So what rifles are being used in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Pretty much every small-arm produced in any number at all in the history of the world.

 

[C-D-P]

LOL. Can anyone say Lance Corporal underground?

 

[Limeyfellow]

Thanks troopers, this info explains what we all knew anyway.
IEDs are the weapons of choice because the enemy isn't skilled enough to win any face to face shoot-outs.

That and it doesn't put any of the insurgents at risk. It is the same reason, we use air strikes or artillery instead of going in there on foot. Why risk lives when you can be long gone and safe by the time the explosion happens. That and IEDs are rather good pyschological weapon when facing a militarily superior force and have been a tactic used for well over a century now. We might like to brag about the greatness of our own soldiers and how they crush anything they come across and the cowardly enemy use bombs, but it is foolish to admit they haven't well thought out reasons for their tactics.

 

[peyton]

Enjoy your stay in the stan, remember to wear your hearing protection on the flight line and watch where you step. There are still a bunch of mines and UXO's (unexploded ordance) everywhere. I have spent some time at Balad and the A/F personnel there do not have weapons issued (except for certain personnel). I asked about this and the reply was "If I need a rifle to defend myself you army people sure messed up" And best of all "Why rely on an M-16 when I have an F-16" ha ha.

 

[Chuck R.]

More M14 Koolaid drinking

It's weird how guys I know who've carried a Mark 11/SR-25 downrange seem to disagree with your "knowledge" of that platform, but would consider the M14 a less than ideal weapon for sniping/DMR work, for a whole slew of reasons. Weird also that KAC is cranking out SR-25s/M110s as fast as they can build them . . . but whatever. As always, there's little point in discussing such things with an irrational M14 fanatic who disregards any inconvenient facts and pretends they don't exist.

One of our analysts retired is a SGM from the sniper school at Benning, and he wholeheartedly agrees with the above. He's still pretty much in tune with those guys as he works in the Infantry School and assists with some of their sniper defeat stuff. He was just here this past week for a conference and I asked him about the M14 VS the M110 and he said that hands down the M110 is a better weapon. The M14 is problematic to keep shooting accurately and the expertise to do it, along with parts availability is a serious issue.

He even went so far as to call it "obsolescent".

Chuck