Army sees urgent need for M14s in Iraq & Afghanistan

[Rugerlvr]

A rack grade M14 isn't any more accurate than an M4 Carbine or M16.

They're not going to be using rack grades, I'm quite sure.

 

[H2O MAN]

Quote:
A rack grade M14 isn't any more accurate than an M4 Carbine or M16.

Rugerlvr

They're not going to be using rack grades, I'm quite sure.

Correct.

These will be modernized M14s capable of excellent accuracy and reliability with little maintenance.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

The US Army is requesting more funds to buy modified M14 rifles

OK, I can see the need in the wide open desert spaces, but don't we HAVE some in storage somewhere? Is more $$ really need, or just an appropriate order? I'm suspicious of anyone who claims "all we need is some $$".

 

[For Freedom]

They actually do use a lot of rack grade M14s right now.

2:15, 2:40, 3:10, 4:10, 4:35, 4:45,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnhokXx-6EQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STvYcG8nmUc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azazYPq2nu4&feature=relatedfmt=6


1:10, 1:50, 2:48
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ojtArH-q5o


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLbz524G4v0



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCn0HnBLBmk

 

[Rugerlvr]

I'm sure there are quite a lot of them stored in cosmoline somewhere. My guess is that they need the dough to re-arsenal them with new barrels, stocks, tacticool rails, etc.

 

[For Freedom]

I think there's about 170,000 M14s left in the US military. Enough to give one to every US Soldier in Iraq I guess.

 

[ctdonath]

I've been telling you that the .308 AR (SR-25 & M110) have not lived up to their hype

Sorry if some of us have not kept up with all your posts.

Care to elaborate on the assertion?

 

[For Freedom]

The M14 has far less reciprocating mass than the AR-10, and it is evident by observing the various inertia events during recoil. -Zak Smith

 

[For Freedom]

 

[fireflyfather]

I seem to remember a member on the forums here with a little blue sticker on his armored vehicle complain about not having the range to engage some ornery folks who had ambushed his convoy in Afghanistan. Please remember, folks, the war in Iraq is largely urban, but the fighting further East is NOT. Afghanistan is *mountain* warfare, with engagements at much longer distances. Hell, the army was using PACK MULES at one point to bring in supplies and ammo.

A DMR rifle of some sort would not be out of place in a squad. 6.5 grendel, 262 mod 0, 7.62x51, whatever. Just give them something to reach out and touch with.

 

[Ignition Override]

Chaim- I have no idea about everything in one rifle.

But imagine how the Air Force decided decades ago to hide the C-5 Galaxy jumbo, widebody airlifter by painting them camoflage.........
It was going to be harder to see at lower altitudes, but competing with the C-130's tactical airlift/assault landing capabilities? Heck, the range they were designed for put them way out of tactical leagues. Even a group of smaller C-141s could barely fit into an African parking ramp years ago without lots of trouble.
But disguising them on the ground?

I guess the same mentality exists with guns.
How about to meet the needs of both Army and Marines-is this only to save money, or save lives?
If a Marine M-16/M-4 was carried from a landing craft, got beach sand in it, would it still be useable without cleaning? Or were they often wrapped in plastic bags for a while, as happened in Desert Storm, to avoid the possibility of finding soldiers killed while trying to strip down/clean their rifles?
We know about Russian-designs,
But how about Aussie, British, German, Scandinavian and Italian etc combat rifles in recent years?
Can they operate for hours in dusty, sandy scenarios without cleaning?

 

[Defensory]

The M14 and its variants are seeing plenty of action in Iraq right now. The fact that the military is currently using the 14 (+ variants) in respectable numbers, and wants more of them, is a testament to their effectiveness.

Nobody in the military is suggesting it as a replacement for the M16 and M4. They just want one or two in every squad, to give them a long range round that is a "heavier hitter" than the 16 or 4.

The M14 is the most underrated and maligned MBR in U.S. military history.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

I did a lot of crawling around in the sand with an M16 and rarely had problems with them. Problems that did occur were easily solved with liberal application of CLP as a temporary remedy to get the rifle back into action until it could be cleaned.

Some people say the M16 is a dry rifle, but that has not been my experience. Quite the opposite, in fact. There was always a spray bottle of CLP going up and down the range, and we carried some with us at all times. If bolt operation got sluggish or the rifle started hanging up, the fastest way to get it back in the fight was to lock the bolt back, drop the mag, spray or drop some CLP in the receiver, release the bolt, a couple more drops on the bolt carrier, work the bolt a couple times, reinsert mag, and recommence firing.

In my experience, it isn't difficult to keep an M16 up and running. But I'd still rather have an M14. I just prefer the feel and general shooting characteristics, ergonomics, and the round it fires.

The way I was raised, the .223 was a ground squirrel round. The .308 was a deer round. Men are closer in size to deer than they are to squirrels, so it always made very little sense to use a round better suited to squirrels.

I was always strangely unimpressed by pure volume of fire as well. Even when I had the SAW, I had the mentality of a rifleman and my fire team leader was constantly getting after me to shoot longer bursts and not worry about being as precise. I still think the quality of aimed rifle fire is under rated.

Riflemen are still taught that they are to engage specific individual targets with aimed fire. That is something I feel I have the ability to do very well. Burst fire on the M16 is almost never used. So if we are going to be limited to aimed semi-automatic rifle fire, why wouldn't it make sense to send accurate 7.62 down range rather than 5.56. Certainly, without worrying over automatic fire capability, concerns about controllability and ammo shortages are greatly reduced.

These days, a lot of ammo concerns are over rated anyways. Engagements are typically brief and rarely far away from a Hummer, where more ammo is stored. If you can expect an infantryman to hump around a 17 pound M249 with 600 rounds of linked 5.56, I don't think a 12 pound M14 with 8 to 10 twenty round mags is too much to ask. Of the two, I've carried both, and would rather have the capabilities of the latter rather than the former, but then, that might just be me.

 

[LongRangeInternational]

Economic sensibilities dictate putting two or three modernized
M14s into action for about the same cost of just one SR25.


Can our government actually do the correct, cost effective thing just once?

We shall see.

H20 MAN, what is the exact difference in price? What is your experience with the SR25? Here's mine. Have you factored in the extremely costly amount of time and money that will go into training armorers and troops on how to maintain the new (to them) weapon?

Try factoring in exactly how much work the M14 takes to get almost as accurate as the AR10 platform.

 

[USSR]

A year or two ago, George Gardner at G.A. Precision posted a picture of 20 M14 receivers that were sent to him as part of a gov't contract to turn them into precision rifles to be used in a DMR role in the sandbox. With Krieger barrels, Leupold mildot scopes, McMillan stocks, and the attention of one of this countries finest smiths, this is the primary role of the M14 in the 21st century.

Don

 

[H2O MAN]

LongRangeInternational

H20 MAN, what is the exact difference in price? What is your experience with the SR25?
Have you factored in the extremely costly amount of time and money that will go into training armorers and troops on how to maintain the new (to them) weapon?

Try factoring in exactly how much work the M14 takes to get almost as accurate as the AR10 platform.

Nice review. Thanks for the link.

I have no experience with the SR25, but I did own an Armalite AR-10A4 SPR that I sold in favor of another Smith Enterprise, Inc. build.

Do you know what the government pays for each SR25 kit? What is your experience with a modernized M14?

The modernized M14 is easier to maintain and requires less maintenance than the SR25. Training is ongoing.

There really is not much time or work needed to make the M14 just as accurate and even more accurate than the AR10 platform.

This SEI M21A5 was tested at Ft. Benning in March of 2008.
The rifle fired groups under 1 MOA at 1000 yards with M118LR ammo.

 

[brooks]

Well, here is a current article from THE STRATEGY PAGE that says they are going to put a couple of AR 10's in every squad and not M 14's.

This is an interesting read.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htinf/articles/20080731.aspx

 

[Ash]

26 M14's in a row in an indeterminate location means very little, though I note they do not have the AR style stocks and remain quite conventional in layout.

Yet, I do think the M14 is a good rifle for the DMR. It was a failure as the general issue arm for infantry, but in this role it should probably do as well as other similar DMR's.

Ash

 

[brooks]

Here is another article on the topic. They are converting some M24's to .30 Win Mag and .338 Lapua Mag to get out to 1600 yards. Barrett has downsized the .50 cal. to .338 Lapua Mag. too.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20080805.aspx

 

[H2O MAN]

Ash 26 M14's in a row in an indeterminate location means very little, though I note they do not have the AR style stocks and remain quite conventional in layout.

Yet, I do think the M14 is a good rifle for the DMR.

I never counted them

I think a configuration similar to my M21A5/C-IED E2 EBR would be ideal.
The Magpul CTR with a snap on cheek riser would be better for optics.

Nobody is saying the M14 will replace in current or future long range rifle system.
What people are saying is that the M14 is available and paid for so it should be modernized and utilized.

 

[LongRangeInternational]

I believe the gov't pays around $10k for an SR25 with scope, suppressor, and maintenance support.

I saw a few M14s in Iraq and shot them, didn't see what the big deal is other than nostalgia. I've seen a lot of M1s at matches malfunction or just plain not accurate enough against the competition. Got a buddy who's poured thousands into his M1 and it won't outshoot my .308 DPMS. The AR platform is lighter, more accurate, easier to customize for each mission, and modular which is much more maintenance friendly. Also, it's out of the box more accurate by design. That's why the M14s need to be rebarreled, bedded, and it looks from the Smith Enterprises page, completely rebuilt to be issued to troops.

I guess you didn't read the part of my writeup dealing with maintenance on the SR25? Do you actually think it's easier for armorers to try and learn how to maintain a new weapons system in the field versus maintaining a weapon virtually identical to the M4? Don't tell me "training is ongoing," tell me how these armorers in the field are going find the time to learn how to deal with a bedded, completely foreign weapon system to maintain.

I don't doubt the SEI M14 might be cheaper up front. However, when you factor in real world, combat maintenance, and actually think about training armorers and the rifleman, it gets expensive real quick.

Do you work for SEI or are you just an M14 enthusiast?

I live in Wyoming. I'd be happy to put my DPMS .308 up against any M1 variant you'd care to bring out to 1200 yards and I'll supply the range. I've got about $1100 not counting scope in my DPMS and it's shooting a solid .5 MOA with FGMM. How much did your SEI cost?

You don't need to keep on posting pictures, we've all seen the darned thing by now.

 

[LongRangeInternational]

Also, the bounty upon US sniper's heads is very real. I dealt with it in Fallujah.

 

[taliv]

i wonder if the smith suppressors are just for show or if the army is buying those as well. that would be even more surprising than a return to the m14. they look a lot cooler on black rifles.

 

[H2O MAN]

I guess you have no real world experience with the modernized M14 and missed the part
about their being easier to maintain and requiring less maintenance than the SR25.

I would love to visit with and shoot with you in Wyoming! Maybe that can happen.
I don't work for SEI or any weapon related company, I am an independent water quality improvement specialist and an M14oholic.
I currently own four custom built SEI M14 rifles, their cost varies and their value grows.
I only know my retail prices and assure you that a person can buy two full blown Crazy Horse SEI builds for the price
the government pays for just one SR25. Since SEI charges the government less than retail I bet the government could
get five modernized SEI M14s for less than they are now paying for two SR25s.

I'm glad you enjoy the pictures I post, I'll leave you with my MK14 SEI Mod 1

 

[H2O MAN]

taliv i wonder if the smith suppressors are just for show or if the army is buying those as well.

The Army and others are buying them as fast as SEI can make them

I used one of the earlier SEI can back in 2006 ~ VIDEO and I have a newer version inbound

Also, there is a new light weight SEI DC Sound Suppressor in the works.