Budget home defense rifle

I meant that I liked the SKS as a gun personally. Not for the criteria here. I guess I was under the mistaken notion that buckshot penetrates a lot. If I was, then I'm definitely open to the idea of a shotgun.

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I really think that's the best option. I am also a big believer in buying guns just for fun, but those may not be the best defensive choice for her situation. As for penetration, this is a situation that calls for some compromise, although I really do not see it as a huge concern with buckshot. Think of it as a 7/8 oz slug that is pre-fragmented into 9-30 caliber round balls. They have no spin, are not stable in flight, and surrender energy quickly.

That's the question I'm asking if we decide to go with a hi-point. Which caliber?

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40 S&W will work well and 12 gauge 2 3/4 inch 00 buck shot is still very manageable in an 18 inch barrel. However, in the 40 S&W or even the 9 mm I am not sure she can buy the ammo because of her age.

Jim

Hi-Point 4095 TS



12 gauge Tactical

monotonous_iterancy said:

That's the question I'm asking if we decide to go with a hi-point. Which caliber?

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Those will penetrate just as much as 00 buckshot...

monotonous_iterancy said:

You can if you have a rifle that shoots it. Can someone fill me in the inch thing with shotgun shells? I'm not much of a shotgun person. What's a 2 3/4 inch shell compared to a 3 inch one?

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And while legally, yes you can, not many gun shops will sell it to you because it is primarily a pistol round.

And the difference is more recoil and a higher shot payload. About 1/4" worth.

I've never cut down a shotgun. How do you make sure the cut is perfectly level, and also, what do you do about the sights? Do you get an aftermarket bead?

According to my research, they make a Pardner NEF 12 ga. with an 18 1/2 barrel already. Though I don't know how much it runs price wise.

I do wonder about the recoil. She's not small, about 5'6. But the only shotgun I have is a 20 gauge, and it's not tactical. I don't have a pistol caliber carbine either.

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A NEF Pardner Protector with 18 1/2 barrel run around $200 new, maybe a little more these days. A Pardner Pump (used) will usually run around $150 give or take. Can she shoot your 20? If yes, then low recoil #4 in 12 ga will work. You should be able to stay in your $300 budget easily if you go the shotgun route. You'll have ammo availability for practice, too.

At the ranges in an apartment, the load from a shotgun spreads to no more than a couple inches across. The effect on a human recipient is as close to total stopping power as can be achieved with a non-crew served weapon, irregardless of the shot size. This is in contrast to pistol cartridges in the 9mm category, which may eventually stop an attacker but not necessarily before they inflict serious bodily harm.
Another factor is the deterrent effect, which is way higher when facing that big hole in a shotgun muzzle. Years ago police in big cities like Chicago carried 12 gauge pump guns in their cars for incidents where they might encounter groups of hostile locals. Our Mayor removed those riot guns, when sensitive members of the community complained that the shotguns were 'intimidating' people.
For personal defense in your friend's situation, an intimidating 20 gauge short stocked short barreled pump shotgun loaded with 7 1/2 shot target loads will minimize the threat to the neighbors and maximize her defensive capability. Way easier to train her to shoot this effectively than any pistol, too.

Mossberg Maverick 88 at Walmart $199 available in 12 or 20 gage 18.5-20". You can buy a wide variety of loads from "low recoil" to "high velocity" bird shot, buck shot, slugs. I'm exceeding frustrated by the hoards of people that insist nothing but 00 buckshot is useful for defense. I have nothing against 00buck, yes it is most likely the most effective stopper, but it is not the ONLY choice and it is not necessarily the right choice for everyone. An ounce plus of shot, even target loads of 7 1/2 - 8, at typical home / apartment engagement distances, particularly though any type of choke is going to be PLENTY to change the mind of 99% of your typical looking-for-an-easy-score criminal. With proper shot placement and/or repeated hits it can/will stop the threat.

I'll give you my situation and chosen method. My 12 gauge only holds 4 rounds, I don't want to keep one in the chamber mostly for safety reasons. My master bedroom is at the opposite side of the house from my children's rooms. Therefor if anything goes bump in the night I have to cross the house to ensure the safety of my family. If I encounter a bad guy between my room and my children's there is the possibility I may have to fire in the direction of their room. Even though I would do everything in my power to "ensure a safe background for my shot" (if necessary) I can't be sure of the possibility of my children's movement in their room. For this reason I have steel BB shot as my first two loads and buckshot as my second two. My reasoning being that if I have to make a 'less than directionally perfect' shot it is less likely to penetrate walls with enough energy to do serious damage, then if follow up shots are needed to end the threat they can be placed in a safer direction with the buckshot.

Is it perfect? No but it's the best I've come up with so far. Hope this may help you in your choices. I believe a 9mm from a carbine is an ok choice but will have much more penetration than you would think, most likely more than frangible .223 or 'proper' shotgun loads.

Best of luck.

Edarnold! I didn't see what you wrote before posting mine. Was busy typing. I can't tell you how AMAZING it is to hear someone echo my exact thoughts for a change. Kinda funny we posted very similar reasoning together at close to the same time on the same thread.

Unless she is a very large woman or has experience with shotguns, I say avoid them if possible. A defense gun must be familiar, and a bad first experience with a hard kicking budget pump which will not come out of the box fitting her AT ALL might turn her off.

Get her a youth model automatic 22lr, preferably tube fed. It will give her a positive introduction to shooting, won't make the police look twice, won't over penetrate, won't break the bank. Nothing says leave me alone like a dozen little 22 slugs ricocheting around inside a pelvis. Seriously, 22lr in quantity will stop a fight at indoor ranges.

Even better, if you were 21, would be a cheap 9 shot revolver.

Anything in 9mm, .40, or .30 Carbine should work. You should be able to find in the $250 - $400 range. The rounds should be soft point or hollow point. Anything in FMJ will penetrate multiple walls and I'm guessing she doesn't know much about guns or dangerous situations and might easily miss.
Light loads in a short shotgun will work well. The only problem with a rifle or shotgun is the length and being able to bring it up or swing it around into position. If she's small a shotgun might be too much. M1 Carbines are good but expensive.
If she can fire off multiple rounds all at once and until the threat stops you might look into a .22 WMR with the more powerful jacketed hollow points.

There is a trend here. Although I have access to a variety of guns the most used one on our ranch is a H&R single shot 12 ga. shotgun. My wife and daughter especially love it. It meets and exceeds all of your criteria;

1. It is lightweight
2. Mechanically simple load and reload. Just press a button located beside the hammer and pivot the barrel. The gun automatically ejects the empty hull.
3. Inexpensive (I paid less than $100.00)
4. Being inexpensive it can be easily trimmed at both ends to fit your lady.
5. I have cartridge sleeve on the stock with five rounds which is more than enough for S.D.
6. There are a WIDE variety of shotgun ammunition available. In fact 00 buck would not be my choice for apartment use. It is easy to find a load she can handle comfortably.
7. Shotgun ammunition is affordable so it will be easy to purchase different types until you find a load she is comfortable with.
8. Safety. Can't get any safer than a single shot with no round in the chamber.
9. Frankly with a little practice a single shot can be reloaded as quickly as a round can be chambered in a pump gun without the worry of shortstroking and jamming it in a stressful encounter.

9. Frankly with a little practice a single shot can be reloaded as quickly as a round can be chambered in a pump gun without the worry of shortstroking and jamming it in a stressful encounter.

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Please post a video of this technique. I can unload my 7- shot pump in 3-4 seconds, and I'm an old man.

I have #4 shot loaded in the shotgun and OO buck/Slugs on the side saddle ready to go if warranted. I would also recommend going to shotgun route. 20 Ga. will be less recoil but still an effective caliber.

My suggestion would be a youth model 20 gauge pump, for the following reasons

1: For most women, the shorter length of pull fits them the best.
2: 20 gauge creates less recoil making easier for most women to shoot it.
3: Lethality is not far behind the 12 gauge.
4: Youth models tend to come with shorter barrels making them handy to employ in the somewhat confined spaces inside the home.
5: The 20 in an equal gun is lighter.
6: The pump shotgun gives you the added benefit of having the less lethal option. By simply racking the first round in you have just informed the person on the other end that they are about to have a very bad day. The sound of a pump shotgun is something universally understood, unless you were hatched under a rock and just recently were introduced to sunlight.

Some may disagree, but thats my opinion.

Here's the video of the rapid fire single shot shotgun http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NSLxxDWpOI

I'm currently using an old H&R handy rifle in .410 loaded with 000 buck, but my girlfriend prefers the 1911 so that's the gun on her side of the bed

If you're using one gun for both of you, compactness, ease of action, and knockdown power (that both of you can handle) are paramount. I think the Rossi Ranch Hand in 38 special/357 would be worth a look - even the 45 Long Colt might be worth a look. http://www.rossiusa.com/product-list.cfm?category=17

You'll be sacrificing accuracy, but the ranch hand is the perfect size medium between rifle/shotguns and handguns.

Hipoint 9 carbine $300
Mossberg 500 12ga 18.5 or 20" $350
Win or Marlin 30-30 lever, '94 styles $400
entry level AR, S&W sport, etc. $700 (maybe $600 before long)

I have or had all of them. All make the grade.

Specifically for certain situations:
All around SHTF - AR
survival - 30-30
HD - Moss 500
suppressed SBR 5.56 perfect choice

The Hipoint would do the job for all of those situations.

If going the hi point route, I'd go with a .45. You can't go wrong with big slow bullets.

Most any reliable firearm will do, if SHE will do. Concentrate on her training at least as much as you concentrate on picking hardware. Show her Kathy's site at http://www.corneredcat.com and encourage her to start reading there.

Talk to her about hardening her apartment as much as possible under her rental agreement. A firearm should be a LAST resort in home defense, not a first resort. There should be layers of security that a would-be attacker has to get through before getting to her. Show her http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/propertycrime.html.

You can pick up a used stoeger o/u 20 gauge for under $300, load it with turkey shot and be pretty darn well protected in an apartment.

100% agree. Layers of defense, and constant situational awareness are just as important as firearms training.

monotonous_iterancy said:

4. The round used needs to have minimal wall penetration, because it's an apartment. That's why I've ruled out shotguns.

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Shotguns loaded with buckshot are no worse than hand guns or pistol caliber carbines with regard to wall penetration and its an unfortunate fact that ANY worthwhile self defense ammo will penetrate typical interior walls with enough energy left to still be potentially lethal.

I would say there are three choices to consider:

1 - A pump action shot gun, possibly a 20 ga youth model. Load it with #4 buckshot or larger. Avoid 'birdshot' at all costs. It lacks the penetration to be a reliable fight stopper.

2 - A pistol caliber lever action. A 16" Rossi M92 in .357 would be a good choice here. More expensive than the shotgun, perhaps, but a bit lighter and less recoil.

3 - The pistol caliber carbine you mentioned. If its reliable (and I've seen a fair number that weren't) it should make a good choice, too.

Just make sure to take your friend out to practice so she can at least hit near the center of a man size silhouette at 15-20 feet. Even with a shotgun this takes at least some practice.

Just as important, talk to here about her attitude and feelings towards lethal force. A gun is a wonderful equalizer, especially for a woman who may be confronted by a larger, stronger man. It does no good thought (and may do harm) if she is not prepared to USE it. Make sure she thinks about whether she will be able to shoot another human being if she has too. Some people have been so programmed to non-violence that even to save their own lives they can't do it. If so, she might be better off with a big can of pepper spray or a taser.