Is it true that the cylinders of....

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Because S&W revolvers' cylinders spin counter-clockwise, one of the engineering changes in the late 1950's, was to change the threading of the ejector rod, from right-hand to left-hand threads. S&W's ejector rods would "shoot loose", and bind the cylinder. Because Colt cylinders spin clockwise, their ejector rods remained right-hand threaded.

Colt fans like to remind S&W fans of this change. :D :D :D
 
Did S&W ever make a SA gun? Even Ruger SA cylinders spin the opposite of Ruger DA cylinders.
The DA revolver was a relatively tough nut to develop. There were early developments by other makers, none which were successful. Even the early Colts (Thunderer and Lightning) were relatively fragile. It wasn't until Colt developed the swing-out cylinder that DA revolvers started to hit their stride. S&W, to develop their DA, swing-out cylinder, copied the Colt design, and Colt's failure to pursue S&W into court, remains a great mystery of corporate management. Earlier, S&W rigorously defended the Rollin White patent, until it lapsed in 1873.

The U.S. Army wasn't a fan of the double action revolver, nor repeating rifles, since the Ordnance Bureau was more concerned about wasting ammunition, than putting out a lead curtain at the enemy.
 
The U.S. Army wasn't a fan of the double action revolver, nor repeating rifles, since the Ordnance Bureau was more concerned about wasting ammunition, than putting out a lead curtain at the enemy.
Actually, the Army adopted both a repeating rifle (the Model 1892 Krag) and the double action revolver (the .38 Long Colt) as soon as we had smokeless powder.
 
There is a fun and useful book out by Alexander Rose called "American Rifle". Well worth the read.

The U.S. military was slow on repeating rifles. A very long debate took place on them (involving doctrine, hit to miss ratio, etc.) and it hasn't died out yet completely. A faint echo of it is found in all the "spray and pray" and hi-cap mags vs. aimed fire debates on gun forums.

They did adhere pretty quickly to da revolvers as soon as ones as reliable as the single actions showed up that was U.S. made. At first, reliable da guns were limited to minor calibers. Colt was the first to fix that. The New Service and it's immediate predecessor were in the hands of the U.S. Army pretty quick and the British Empire enjoyed them. S&W followed a short bit later with the Triple Lock. The extra lock was added to show it was stronger than the Colt product in part. At least for marketing purposes.

On the rotation thing. Maybe some was avoiding patent infringement. Some was also just different approaches the engineers took to solve particular problems.

I also think Triple Locks were strong and reliable and worked well. Systemic mechanical problems are not a part of their lore. But they were more expensive to produce than a gun without them. They were not selling as well as S&W hoped. Colt had stolen a march on S&W with the New Service.

Geoffrey Boothroyd in his book "The Handgun" does bring up an issue with the "New Century" Triple Lock. During, and before, the first WW the British had both the S&W product and the Colt New Service side by side in the trenches. The Triple Lock, in the mud, dirt and rain, fouled more easily than the Colt. Dirt caught in the locking mechanism completed the cylinder from locking up. That was a knock against it.

tipoc
 
Certainly. All the early Smith and Wessons were Single Action. They didn't make a double action revolver for the first 35 or 40 years of their existence.

You might want to recheck your facts about when S&W began producing DA revolvers. S&W began making the DA 1st model in 1881, and these were being produced shortly after that http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-antiques/326339-help-break-top-revolver.html

Either model was being produced before the 35yr to 40yr that you stated. S&W started making firearms in 1852, so that puts S&W first DA revolver at 29years after their existence.
 
Did S&W ever make a SA gun? Even Ruger SA cylinders spin the opposite of Ruger DA cylinders.
S&W made far more SA sixguns than Colt ever dreamed of.

FURTHERMORE, the DA systen used by all the S&W DA revolvers we all love and admire was designed by a COLT engineer who took his new design to his employer, COLT, noting his new superior design, and COLT to their everloving, constant ignorence of anything 'new' turned him down. He took it over to S&W who knew something truly superior when they saw it in the ferrous flesh paid him handsomely for his patent. AND the rest is history.
Let it be noted here that the COLT company still operates pretty much on that level of ignorence and NIH sillyness.
And so it goes...
 
Remington came out with the first DA revolver in the early 1860's , Colt and S&W took another 20 years to have one. Too bad Remington had financial problems in the late 1880's. They had a complete lineup of double and single action revolvers in various frame sizes.
 
Vern H. stated S&W in recent years made a Model 1917 and a Triple lock

I'm not buying the Triple lock

S&W came out with their "Classic' line
whichis the post WWII short DA action and Blued Carbonsteel
and the Modes included:

Moldel 18 K-22 Combat Masterpiece
Model 17 K-22 Target Masterpiece
Model 48 K-22 in .22 RF Mag
Model 27
Model 29
Model 57
Model 25 6" Bbl. in .45 Colt

And previous to the above a year or three prior
S&W came out with

Model 22 'Model of 1917"
& Model 22 aka Model of 1950

as well as a Model 21 4" Bbl. fixed sights .44 SPecial

I held a S&W Triple lock in my hands once, beautiful workmanship on
the front sight and the old W&E Adj rear sight
so I know what one whould/look like

I scan the S&W offerings on a regular basis every few motns or
so, and a reake of the Triple Lock would have made HUGE news

The model 22s have a bit of sculpting so that
they resemble the M1917 and 1950 "Army'*

Colt CC & S&W CCW

Cap & ball CC because you wouldn't want the hammer on a live cap until it's fully loaded seems plausible. S&W were break open until the
1st model hand ejector took off and the 2nd model handejector or aka N frame
in 1908


Why is itKS speedloader's knob release have to rotate CC as it tends to make the cylinder close?




Randall
 
Actually, the Army adopted both a repeating rifle (the Model 1892 Krag) and the double action revolver (the .38 Long Colt) as soon as we had smokeless powder.[/QUOTE

A little late for Custer and his men since the natives had Winchester lever action repeaters.

From what I've read, the US troops started the Spanish-American War, 1898, using the same single shot 45-70 Trapdoor Springfields, while the Spanish were using flat shooting 7mm Mauser repeaters.

The back office types were slow learners.
 
Springfield Model 1892-99 in .30-40 Krag was
the issue rifle for US Troops for the Spanish AMerican
Wa, where it was indeed beat by the flat shooting 7mm Mauser.

.30-40 Krag 30" bbl. 2,000 FPS 22" Carbine 1890 fps
is some 300-400 dpa aloqwe rhN 7mm MUAWE.

Replaced by the 1903 Springfield .30-06
inn duh, 1903

R-
 
Springfield Model 1892-99 in .30-40 Krag was
the issue rifle for US Troops for the Spanish AMerican
Wa, where it was indeed beat by the flat shooting 7mm Mauser.

.30-40 Krag 30" bbl. 2,000 FPS 22" Carbine 1890 fps
is some 300-400 dpa aloqwe rhN 7mm MUAWE.

Replaced by the 1903 Springfield .30-03
inn duh, 1903

R-

fixed that for you since you are talking about the 1903 1903's
 
Both companies have made revolvers with cylinders that turn the "wrong" way; it is purely a matter of the internal design. "Back in the day", Colt salesmen made much of the idea that their hand forced the Colt cylinder closed, while S&W's hand forced it open. In fact neither hand has enough power to "force" the cylinder in either direction.

(I guess Colt fans can take comfort in the idea that the latest S&W revolver, the .38 Bodyguard, has a cylinder that turns clockwise.)

The Colt SAA loading gate was put on the right side not because Sam Colt was lefthanded (another silly myth), but because that was where the capping groove was on the percussion guns and the change to the forging dies was minimized by putting the loading gate there also.

Jim
 
@ driftwood johnson

wow that picture is crazy!

Which picture? I posted 3 or 4.

In fact neither hand has enough power to "force" the cylinder in either direction.

+1

Regarding the recent recreation of a Triple Lock, I doubt that very much too. I posted a question about it over on the Smith and Wesson Forum, and the guys there said there was never a true reproduction of the Triple Lock made. There have been a few custom guns made, mostly from Model 29s, but not from S&W. I keep my ear pretty close to the ground regarding S&W and I would probably have heard of it if they were releasing a reproduction of the Triple Lock.

Regarding Single Action Smiths, the lockworks I posted are all of Single Action Smith and Wessons. The top two are of my New Model Number Three made in 1882. It is at the top of this photo. The revolver at the bottom of this photo is a Double Action 44. This one was made in 1881. Yes, this was the first Double Action revolver that S&W made.

NewModelNumberThreeandDA44comparison.jpg



Regarding the Rollin White patent, it expired in 1869, not 1873. Since the Colt Single Action Army was not released until 1873, many people assume that is when the White patent expired. That is incorrect. S&W knew the White Patent was going to expire in 1869. Up until that time all the revolvers they produced, starting in 1857, had been of the Tip Up design. Like these:


ThreeTipUps01_zps4e547eb7.jpg




They were called Tip Ups because in order to load them the barrel rotated up, then the cylinder was removed for unloading and loading.

Like this. And yes, they were all Single Action.

No1TipUpopen_zps17926697.jpg




Smith and Wesson assumed that once their stranglehold on the White patent was over, all the other firearm companies would be ready to enter the market with their own cartridge revolvers. So Smith went back to the drawing board and designed something truly revolutionary, to get the jump on the competition, a big 44 caliber revolver that eventually became know as the American Model. It was a Top Break design, meaning that it broke at the top with the barrel rotating down, not up, for reloading. The really revolutionary feature of the Top Breaks was that they automatically ejected the spent brass when they were opened all the way.

Like this. This is actually my New Model Number Three, not an American, but the idea is the same.

unloading-1.jpg



So S&W introduced the American Model in 1870. But much to their surprise, Colt did not come out with the SAA until 1873. They simply did not have a new cartridge revolver ready when the White patent expired. Instead, they made various cartridge conversion models of the their Cap & Ball revolvers until the SAA was ready for the market in 1873.


After the big Number Three revolvers were developed, S&W started making smaller Top Break pocket pistols. At first they were all single action, like this 38 Single Action.

38SA2ndModel02_zpsd4889723.jpg




Later, after the big DA 44 had been developed in 1881, S&W started making Top Break Double Action pocket pistols.

Like these.

38DA3rdModel_zps3371e26e.jpg


38SafetyHammerless3rdModel_zps7d257cc9.jpg

32safetyhammerless2ndmodel_zps585e4f63.jpg

These S&W Double Action designs were not fragile at all; all of the revolvers in these photos are over 100 years old and they are all still in excellent mechanical condition.
 
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@driftwood johnson
oh sorry, I meant the one with the S&W and Colt mirroring each other. It is both amazing and somewhat disturbing at the same time. :)
 
Hi, Pendennis,

I am curious, but have you ever actually seen a Colt ejector rod? If so, please tell us how it could rotate loose no matter which way the cylinder turns.

Jim
 
@Wil Terry, Im not talking about he Model 49 bodyguard, i meant the poly frame BG revolver with the built in laser

Yep, the polymer S&W Bodyguard 38 rotates clockwise.
 
Because S&W revolvers' cylinders spin counter-clockwise, one of the engineering changes in the late 1950's, was to change the threading of the ejector rod, from right-hand to left-hand threads. S&W's ejector rods would "shoot loose", and bind the cylinder. Because Colt cylinders spin clockwise, their ejector rods remained right-hand threaded.

Colt fans like to remind S&W fans of this change. :D :D :D
I'll bet that convinces a bunch of them to run right out and buy a new D/A Colt revolver.

Oh, wait...

;)
 
The very first swing out cylinder double action Colts were "left wheelers" in successive Navy, Army, and Marine models from 1889 to 1905.

They went back to clockwise rotation with the New Pocket, New Police, and New Service.


In the era when Colt and S&W hotly contested the police and self defense market, it was considered important to know which way your cylinder turned in case you only had time to reload with one or two rounds.
 
Well Smith fans can have a whoop cuz Colt no longer makes da wheelguns but at least S&W has never made a 191...Oh wait a minute.

Well a genuine 1911. So there:eek:


tipoc
 
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