Is it true that the cylinders of....

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With all due respect for everyone here, I keep asking why? Why we have this post, why we are talking about revolvers made over a Hundred Years ago?

But I guess someone a thousand years from now will be asking WHY we spend millions of dollars studying animals that died over 65 MILLION years ago.

No one has a good answer to that one also.
Jim
 
Some folks are interested in the story of the development and evolution of the gun. Some are students of the gun and spend time studying gun handling, shooting, gun lore, gear and design changes over the decades. Some look at the impact of guns on society and the impact of society on guns. By looking at the evolution of the gun, long and short, we can see the evolution of human society. It's also fun.

Why didn't the U.S. military adopt a double action revolver till the 1880s-90s? And what caliber was adopted? This tells us something about the history of the U.S. military and gun manufacturing at the time.

Folks study the story of ancient life on earth to know better the world that is ours. To know better what makes it tick. Besides what kid don't like dinosaurs?

No one has a good answer to that one also.

If a thousand years from now they are studying us, and likely they will be, it'll still cost them a bunch of resources and time to do that. So you have the answer to your question in the question you asked.

tipoc
 
That's what they mean when they say a Colt runs like a Swiss watch...not that it's mechanically superior, just that it turns clockwise.
 
I also think Triple Locks were strong and reliable and worked well.
The Triple Locks were strong and reliable and worked well. But the third lock contributed nothing to the revolver's strength. As I pointed out, the third lock pointed the wrong way, so under recoil it tended to unlock or partially unlock.

That's why when S&W brought out the retro-Triple Lock, they reversed the third lock.
 
On a revolver with a loading gate like the SAA, wouldn't counter-clockwise be better since the first cartridge loaded would rotate into battery when the revolver was cocked?
Keep in mind you want an empty chamber with a SAA.
 
But I guess someone a thousand years from now will be asking WHY we spend millions of dollars studying animals that died over 65 MILLION years ago.

No one has a good answer to that one also.
Jim

I do. Because a Tyrannosaurus Rex is really cool. :D Did you not see the movie "Jurassic Park"? Did you not know that Tyrannosaurus Rex eat lawyers? :what:
 
1911 is John Browning design and not Colt..

Winchester bought the rights to make lever action from S&W as there first go around at a company in 1852 was a lever action pistol that didn't do so well.. The guy that founded Winchester was a dry cleaner as he bought the first S&W company and turned it into Winchester which was a smart buy as the level action patent was S&W.

The S&W was all know is the 2nd company started by the pair and to add another gunmaker to the counter clockwise would be Rossi.
 
If a thousand years from now they are studying us, and likely they will be, it'll still cost them a bunch of resources and time to do that. So you have the answer to your question in the question you asked.

tipoc

hehe... wait'll they come across the computer I buried 6 feet deep in the back yard! :D
 
Dan Wesson and Charter Arms cylinders rotate clockwise, just like the vast majority of Colt DAs. Just as God intended. :)

I've never seen a bent ejector rod on a Charter or Colt that wasn't caused by abuse.
Just like I've never seen a bent crane that wasn't caused by abuse.

I always enjoy these pissing matches. Much like domestic vs import cars and Ford vs GM.

Funny thing. I don't like ALL Colts, just like I don't like ALL Smiths.
At least, I don't like all of them the same amount.
But, I do like Colts AND Smiths.
I thought we were past grade school.
Hell, I like Charter, Ruger, Taurus, Rossi and several others.(NOT RG)
But, the Python is the finest revolver EVER made. :)
Never mind the uber expensive, and uber nice Korth. ;)

Now, that the poop has been stirred, let's sit back and enjoy the aroma.
 
"...Is it true that..." Yep. You never seen them together? Just curious.
The patent thing may be true. Smith had the patent for drilled through cylinders, I think it was called. Colt had to wait the ten years or pay royalties to Smith. The cylinders rotating in different directions was just a way of being different for Colt. There was a lot of stuff like that going on in those days.
"...the Python is the finest revolver..." It's just a run of the mill .357 revolver that has a factory tuned trigger out of the box. That doesn't make 'em worth what they get for 'em.
"...why we are talking about revolvers made over a Hundred Years ago..." Designed over 100 years ago. Colts are still a nightmare you work on. Smith's, not so much, but you need one special tool.
"...Why didn't the U.S. military adopt...what caliber was adopted..." The U.S. military gets to adopt what your government is willing to pay for. .38 Special.
"...S&W's ejector rods would "shoot loose"..." Wasn't changed in the 1950's. Had a 19 that did that every time I shot it.
 
Winchester bought the rights to make lever action from S&W as there first go around at a company in 1852 was a lever action pistol that didn't do so well.. The guy that founded Winchester was a dry cleaner as he bought the first S&W company and turned it into Winchester which was a smart buy as the level action patent was S&W.

Oliver Winchester was a successful shirt manufacturer, not a dry cleaner. He and a group of investors invested in the Volcanic company around 1856, just about the same time that Smith and Wesson picked up stakes and started their new revolver company up the river in Springfield. The company was renamed the New Haven Arms Company. Winchester eventually bought out all the other investors and kept pouring money into it, hiring Benjamin Tyler Henry along the way to completely redesign the old Volcanic rifle. It was not until about 1865 or so that the company actually turned a profit. In 1866 the company name was changed again, this time to Winchester Repeating Arms Company, and the first product was the Improved Henry, later known as the Winchester Model 1866.



The patent thing may be true. Smith had the patent for drilled through cylinders, I think it was called. Colt had to wait the ten years or pay royalties to Smith. The cylinders rotating in different directions was just a way of being different for Colt. There was a lot of stuff like that going on in those days.

As I said earlier, the patent was the Rollin White patent for boring chambers straight through a cylinder so metallic cartridges could be loaded. Rollin White was a former employee of Colt, and when he brought his idea of a bored through cylinder to Colt, Colt did not see the value of the idea. So White patented it himself in 1855. S&W never owned the patent, Rollin White refused to sell it. Instead, he entered into a licensing agreement with S&W. They paid him a royalty of twenty five cents on every revolver they sold. Colt never paid any money to S&W. They had to wait until the patent expired in 1869. As I said earlier, Colt did not have a new design ready for market until 1873, four years after the White patent expired in 1869. Colt did try to get around the White Patent, with the Thuer conversion, using a backwards tapered cartridge. It never sold very well. Remington did enter into a licensing agreement with S&W to convert some of their Cap & Ball revolvers to cartridges, paying S&W a royalty for every revolver converted.




The Triple Locks were strong and reliable and worked well. But the third lock contributed nothing to the revolver's strength. As I pointed out, the third lock pointed the wrong way, so under recoil it tended to unlock or partially unlock.

That's why when S&W brought out the retro-Triple Lock, they reversed the third lock.

I never said the third lock contributed to the strength of the Triple Lock. I said


"the third lock proved unnecessary and was later dropped. Smith and Wesson made the Triple Lock just as a challenge, to prove they could do it. They only made the one model for a few years, from 1907 until 1915, then dropped the third lock because it was over engineered and not needed. The 44 HE 2nd Model dropped the third lock in 1915 and they never made another revolver with a third lock again. Saved about 50 cents on the cost of making the revolver. It was just plain unnecessary."

I have also been unable to find any reference to a modern made 'retro-Triple Lock'. I do not believe S&W made one.


Regarding the ejector rod unscrewing on a Smith, Yes, this is absolutely true. I have had it happen to me several times with some of my older Smiths. What tends to happen is the ejector rod unscrews just enough so that the spring loaded latch at the front of the ejector rod does not quite clear the detent in the rod, effectively preventing the gun from opening. Usually a quick twist on the end of the rod will remedy it. That is why Smith went to the left hand thread on the ejector rod around 1961. A bit of loctite or giving the rod a good hard twist will usually remedy it on the older guns. Also, unburnt flakes of powder under the ejector star can prevent the cylinder from unlatching too. Good to check under the star every once in a while for a buildup of powder residue.

With all due respect for everyone here, I keep asking why? Why we have this post, why we are talking about revolvers made over a Hundred Years ago?



For the same reason that people are interested in antique cars. You may not want to drive them on the highway every day, but they are incredibly cool. You may not want to carry a 100 year old revolver, or even a replica of a 100 year old revolver, but I sure enjoy collecting them and learning as much as I can about them, and shooting them. Here is a photo of me shooting my S&W New Model Number Three, which was made in 1882.

040.jpg
 
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I have also been unable to find any reference to a modern made 'retro-Triple Lock'. I do not believe S&W made one.
Then you haven't been reading gun magazines -- Smith and Wesson has brought out several retro-revolvers, including the Triple Lock, the M1917 and the Schofield.
 
Then you haven't been reading gun magazines -- Smith and Wesson has brought out several retro-revolvers, including the Triple Lock, the M1917 and the Schofield.

You are correct. I stopped reading Guns and Ammo, Shooting Times, and a bunch of others several years ago. I do still buy American Handgunner because I like to see what Mike Venturino is up to.

But that is besides the point. I am a member of the Smith and Wesson Collector's Association, and I keep my ear to the ground about all things S&W. Revolvers anyway. I am well aware of the Schofiield 2000 model, I have fired a few of them. I am also aware that they changed the gas ring so that one cannot fire it with Black Powder, as the originals were, without it binding up. I am also aware of the retro 1917 with its garish case hardened finish on the frame, something S&W never did with Hand Ejectors in the old days. A good friend bought one. I can assure you, as an ardent admirer of the Triple Lock, if there had been a new one made, I would have heard of it.

Perhaps this is what you are referring to:

http://www.gunblast.com/Cumpston_Mod24Heritage.htm

Please note, it is not a Triple Lock, it is a Model 24 gussied up to look like a Triple Lock. With a round grip no less. Also, please note that while it has the spring loaded ball detent you mentioned, it lacks a locking latch at the end of the extractor rod, so it is a duple lock, not a triple lock.
 
Please note, it is not a Triple Lock, it is a Model 24 gussied up to look like a Triple Lock. With a round grip no less. Also, please note that while it has the spring loaded ball detent you mentioned, it lacks a locking latch at the end of the extractor rod, so it is a duple lock, not a triple lock.
Well, of course it's not a real Triple Lock -- any more than the Colt retro-Walker is a real Walker.

It is, however, a S&W offered as a retro-Triple Lock, and as I said, the lock in question is reversed, so it actually works under recoil instead of unlocking.
 
The Triple Locks were strong and reliable and worked well. But the third lock contributed nothing to the revolver's strength. As I pointed out, the third lock pointed the wrong way, so under recoil it tended to unlock or partially unlock.

That's why when S&W brought out the retro-Triple Lock, they reversed the third lock.

There is nothing that I've read in any of the literature on the Triple Lock to hint that this was a problem with the guns when originally produced or that it lead in any way to the guns discontinuance. Given the modest pressures and loadings of the early 44 Special guns and the other chamberings of the Triple Lock there is no reason that this problem would have cropped up during the few years the gun was produced. When fired it did not "unlock".

If you can point to a couple of sources on this in relation to the original guns I'm willing to reconsider my opinion.

It may have been seen in guns in very worn condition. Given the knowledge of heat treating at the time it is quite conceivable that a very worn gun experienced these problems. Especially a gun decades old.

The gun was not built at a time that shooters were looking at 44 Mag or 357 Magnum levels of pressure and power. So it was not built with those power levels in mind. It's construction was not a problem.

Modern wheelguns with three locking points are built differently. This is to handle much more powerful loads.

tipoc
 
There is nothing that I've read in any of the literature on the Triple Lock to hint that this was a problem with the guns when originally produced or that it lead in any way to the guns discontinuance. Given the modest pressures and loadings of the early 44 Special guns and the other chamberings of the Triple Lock there is no reason that this problem would have cropped up during the few years the gun was produced. When fired it did not "unlock".
Then explain why, when the third lock was discontinued, there was no degradation in performance?

The third lock contributed nothing to the gun's performance, and the reason why was that it was facing the wrong way -- and hence tended to unlock or partially unlock on firing. As a result, the gun worked just as well without the third lock as with it.
 
Then explain why, when the third lock was discontinued, there was no degradation in performance?

Because as I have already said, the third lock was just added because S&W wanted to prove that they could do it. It did not add anything to the performance of the gun, and when the 2nd Model 44 Hand Ejector came out the third latch was discontinued. Deleting the third latch saved about 50 cents on the cost of making the gun, a significant amount at the time.
 
Sunray, I was kidding (just barely) about the Python.
However, there was NOTHING run of the mill about it.
I was also kidding about the Korth. They are sweet.
 
Then explain why, when the third lock was discontinued, there was no degradation in performance?

The third lock contributed nothing to the gun's performance, and the reason why was that it was facing the wrong way -- and hence tended to unlock or partially unlock on firing. As a result, the gun worked just as well without the third lock as with it.

It would still be useful if you could point me to a source for the suggestion that the third lock, in practice, was a problem with the performance of the Triple Lock.

Likely the primary purpose of the third lock was marketing, as I and others have mentioned earlier, it did not necessarily make the gun stronger but it was a point in marketing against the Colt New Service and the guns of other competitors.

You seem to argue two conflicting points, it seems to me. One is that the lock "was facing the wrong way" and "hence tended to unlock or partially unlock on firing". Meaning that the third lock was a liability to the gun. Not just that it did nothing but that it made the gun weaker than the subsequent versions without it.

At the same time it seems you argue that the subsequent versions of the gun showed "no degradation in performance" from the original gun.

I have not read that there were any problems with the Triple Lock regularly opening under recoil with the rounds it was chambered in. At the same time the guns that followed it were as strong or stronger than the Triple Lock. But the presence of the Third Lock did not make the gun weaker. It was more expensive to manufacture the gun with the third lock. It did not help sales. It was not needed for a strong gun and so it was discontinued.

tipoc
 
It would still be useful if you could point me to a source for the suggestion that the third lock, in practice, was a problem with the performance of the Triple Lock.
I didn't say it was a "problem." I just said it didn't contribute to the performance of the gun -- primarily because it unlocked, or partially unlocked on firing.

However, the British bought some Triple Locks in WWI and complained that the triple lock feature tended to get gummed up in the mud -- so in that sense, perhaps there is documentation that it was a "problem."
 
Geoffrey Boothroyd reported on the Triple Lock and mud question in his book "The Handgun".

The point you make about the design is valid though. I've read it before. But more as a potential problem ("let's not do it the way it was done here because this could happen") then one that interfered with the operation or functioning of the New Century in practice at the time the gun was new. What I recall anyway.

tipoc
 
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