Not a rifle but it seems like it belongs here . . .

Glock with 11.5" barrel (MechTech upper):



With a Sig Sauer SB-15 Pistol Stabilizing Brace:


Mike

PS. The instructions from Sig Sauer suck. It does indeed make your pistol very stable but not the way SIG tells you to hold it (which is almost useless). I had to figure out my own way to hold it.

Just a tad over 26" long . . .


Mike

This thread has already caused some excitement and I don't want to increase moderator workload, so I should post this information:



Sig Sauer actually includes a printed copy of this ATF technical decision printed on heavy duty card stock in the box.


Mike

I need to be very very careful to remove the foregrip before removing the brace.

Something like this (a pistol plus vertical foregrip under 26" long) would be an AOW:



Mike

OARNGESI said:

Theres a difference look of the lop on the sig vs glock. I would get your own letter with these parts before attempting this.

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I am 6'3" with long arms. The PSB straps to my forearm with a significant gap between the back of the PSB and the crease of my bicep.

henschman said:

I like that a lot!!!

What caliber?

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I have barrels and BCGs for both .45 ACP and 10mm.

According to BallisticsByTheInch.com, 230gr subsonic .45 maxes out somewhere around 10" barrel. When my stamp comes back, I will cut the barrel to the absolute minimum for my suppressor adapter to fit (I plan to modify the rail to remove the front mount). For now I kept it 11.5" to keep the overall length above 26".

My 10mm barrel is 13.5", the maximum velocity for 180gr hot loads. They actually slow down slightly above that.

Until my stamp comes back (send early Feb '13, pending April 30, expected approval Feb '14--but I am not counting on that!) my collapsible stock is being kept in my safe deposit box 25 miles away.

I have a Ghost Rocket 3.5lb disconnector which with the MechTech upper gives a 5.0lb trigger pull. I am still trying to figure out a safety. The LWD Siderlock cross bolt safely works with the Glock slide but not the MechTech, so I will probably have to go with the Cominolli.

Here is what it used to look like. That stock is super light and very rigid.


Mike

Because, like the Franklin Arms XO-26 is it over 26" in length and either originally a pistol (or in the case of the XO-26, a "firearm" that is neither a pistol or rifle). As long as the receiver was not first a rifle, you can go back and forth between legal configurations all you want.
http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS_XO-26.html

Here is the pertanent part of the Franklin Arms ATF letter (and many like it):


You can do the same thing with a shotgun first sold as a "firearm" not "shotgun" with a barrel under 18" in length as long as the overall length is over 26" as well. An example is the Shockwave Technologies goose-neck grip on a Mossberg Cruiser:



Mike

USAF_Vet said:

I was thinking the same thing. Its still a pistol, brace or no brace, and the addition of a FVG would be an unregistered AOW.

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The ATF disagrees on both counts. It is no longer a pistol and thus does not fall under the pistol exemption to the AOW definition. So we need to look at the rest of the AOW definition. If it is not 26" or longer, it would be an AOW. This is why I did not go any shorter on the barrel.

Mike

I put 100 rounds of Win value pack and 100 rounds of Estate (both 230 hardball) through it at the range after work today. Wow! Fun! Addictive!

Cycled flawlessly. Seemed accurate (the Estate much more so). No noticable flash.

Shooting ~20rd the Sig way was significantly less sucky than I thought. If I had lost the use of one arm I would actually want this thing. Hit bowling pins set out at 40yd 2/3 the time with just a laser boresight and no practice for a totally new way of shooting.

Shooting another way was way too much fun. Very quick, very accurate, good recoil absorption--with no compromise.. Mr. Bosco deserves a wink and a nod and Sig a huge thumbs up. Shot steel jacks and those glorified dog toys at 25 yd consistantly. I still have to sight in on paper and see how the 10 and 45 hold zero after barrel and BCG swaps.

I've previously put many hundreds of rounds, mostly HP through the 10mm but this is actually my first time shooting the 45. Reciprocating mass is what makes blowback work well and with a bolt and BCG weighing almost 3 pounds (half the weight of the gun), it shoots significantly cleaner than a recoil operated pistol.

Mike

No, a second vertical grip prevents it from being a pistol. 26" length prevents it from being an AOW. It is just a "firearm" that does not meet the definitions of another category. When you buy a virgin receiver, it is also just a "firearm".

Mike

Intestingly, while there is a "first a rifle/shotgun always a rifle/shotgun", a pistol or other weapon can go back and worth depending on configuration. Remove the vertical front grip and it becomes a pistol again.

A PGO shotgun is a slightly different animal at first blush, but I see nothing in the logic or legal interpritation of the SB-15 letter that would preclude it's use on a PGO such as the Mossberg Cruiser (using a pistol or A2 tube in a Mesa Tactical stock adapter, for examle). This would allow for a substantial reduction in barrel length within the 26" OAL limit (sub 10"). I do see a potential issuse with partial dissasembly and would want an ATF letter before trying (even though other guns like the XO-26 have simillar potential disasembly issues).

As a seperate topic, PGOs are in a strange kind of legal limbo for the last 4 years although they are stil being bought and sold. In 2009 the ATF decided that they did not fit the statutory definiton of shotguns because they were not designed or redeigned to be fired from the shoulder and thus could not be sold to those under 21 and could not be transfered out of state by non-FFLs for that reason. In this case, they were not prompted by a request for a technical ruling but actually sent this decision out in their 2009 Newsletter to FFLs. There has only been one newsletter since and the issue has not been revisited. This decision lead to the removal of the 18" barrel limit (which the ATF has confirmed in several technical letters since). Previously manufactures had assumed that both the 18" barrel length and 26" OAL applied.

However, and here is the really tricky part, if they are no longer shotguns, then they no longer fall under the shotgun exception for destructive devices with a bore over one half inch. The ATF has not taken the next logical step and announced that they are all DDs, although they don't seem to have any statutory discression in the matter like they do with shotguns.

Many PSGs were sold as shotguns before the 2009 decision and as "firearms" since. The only thing preventing these non-shotguns from being Destructive Devices appears to be the unwillingness of the ATF to "go there".

Customers of Sig Sauer like myself at least have an ATF letter saying using a SB-15 does not create a rifle because it is not a stock, Customers of Mossberg who buy PGO shotguns have only silence.

Mike