Why 8?

[leadcounsel]

You’re reading what you want to read and ignoring the actual words. The FBI shootout had little to do with capacity (I didn’t say nothing to do with, but little to do with). The FBI shootout was a failure of tactics and round effectiveness. Three of the agents had high capacity 9mm pistols and fired a total of 41 rounds. In all, seven of the eight agents fired 77 to 78 rounds of 9mm,.357, 38, and 12ga.

Be that as it may, if your personal safety plan is emphasizing a Miami FBI shootout, then magazine capacity should only be a minor factor in that plan. It’s a popular method of debating, a sly shift of environment. You and I are more likely to get hit by a bolt of lightning on the day we’re walking into the lotto headquarters with the winning powerball ticket than to get in such a firefight. Citizen self-defense and FBI field tactics are not in parallel.

You contend that the P6 eight round capacity is a deficiency and I disagree. I'm secure and comfortable with my nine round capacity 1911, or ten round capacity of my 1076, much more than I would be with 18 rounds in a G17. If I need to reload, which historically hasn’t happened in citizen self-defense, I certainly can do so.

First, the conclusions of the FBI (not mine, although I would concur) is that BOTH the caliber and capacity were contributing factors to the bad day the Agents had. They scored too few hits, and the hits they scored were not as effective as desired (Mattix disabled by .38, Platt suffering fatal wound by 9mm - neither were immediately killed by the pistol rounds), and 2 of 8 (25%) of the SAs were taken out of the fight while reloading their 6 shot service revolvers. CLEARLY for LEO 6 shots is not enough in a sidearm. The FBI mainly concluded it was an ammo failure, but a secondary conclusion was capacity, given the change in both ammo (to .40) and capacity (from revolver to semi-auto). Otherwise a .357 revolver could have simply been adopted. Given this I'd venture that capacity was equally important than ammo selection, given these facts.

I think this conclusion was more of an conclusion searching for an incident versus an obvious conclusion from decades of experience.

I agree that I will likely never encounter a "Platt" in real life or ever draw my gun as a civilian. I certainly hope I never have to. This thread is NOT about that. It's not about civilian concealed carry. There are many high capacity choices in various calibers that carry up to 16 or so rounds in a P6 sized pistol. This is a commentary on the P6 design deficiency for its intended purpose for LEO carry.

I was commenting on that I felt it odd that a military/police pistol designed and built in cold war Germany (a city divided) would only hold 8 rounds, when it easily could have held 12, 14, or even 16 with minor design changes, fattening the grip by a few millimeters, as we've seen in successor Sig designs and in competitors both before (Browning) and contemporaneous (CZ) and after (Sig, XD, etc.). The target audience was LEO who would presumably carry and have a need for a duty pistol - not for Leadcounsel to carry concealed decades later. Hence it was expected that it may be called into real life duty from time to time, with a hated well-armed enemy just on the other side of a tall wall or just a few hundred miles away to any European nation.

 

[gc70]

This is a commentary on the P6 design deficiency for its intended purpose for LEO carry.

I was commenting on that I felt it odd that a military/police pistol designed and built in cold war Germany (a city divided) would only hold 8 rounds, when it easily could have held 12, 14, or even 16 with minor design changes, fattening the grip by a few millimeters, as we've seen in successor Sig designs and in competitors both before (Browning) and contemporaneous (CZ) and after (Sig, XD, etc.). The target audience was LEO who would presumably carry and have a need for a duty pistol - not for Leadcounsel to carry concealed decades later. Hence it was expected that it may be called into real life duty from time to time, with a hated well-armed enemy just on the other side of a tall wall or just a few hundred miles away to any European nation.

In your opinion, from a perspective 40 years later, the P6 design was deficient in capacity. The people responsible for procuring guns for German police in the mid-1970s obviously did not have that opinion.

The German police pistol specifications in the 1970s called for 8-round capacity. That capacity was the norm for 9mm service pistols of that period. The German military used the P1, which had an 8-round capacity. Communist-bloc countries typically used a Makarov variant, which also had an 8-round capacity. Government procurement agents bought what was well-proven, common, and on par with the competition.

 

[TestPilot]

The problem is that the your basic premise,"Why lower capacity when dimention is the same?" is false.

A single stack SIG's grip is slimmer than double stack SIG.

 

[TestPilot]

Originally Posted by Mainsail:
If magazine capacity were the predominant factor in the outcome of gunfights, citizen or police, the market would have purged itself of low capacity handguns a long time ago. Can anyone find supporting evidence of shoot-outs involving citizens (or even police for that matter) where the outcome was determined by who had the gun with the most cartridges aboard?

You're reading to suit your objective. I didn't say "more bullets". I said "...outcome was determined by who had the gun with the most cartridges aboard.

No one can determine that, since there is no way to prove someone who won a gun fight with a 12~15 round capacity could not have done a reload if they were fighting with a 8~10 round magazine.

Gun fight results get determined by multiple factors that cannot be isolated.

You're just using defective analysis to defend a point.
Regardless, there are undeniable facts.

FACT: There HAS been multiple incidents where more than 8 rounds were fired to secure a gun fight victory.

FACT: There HAS been incidents were opponent took more than 8 hits to go down.

FACT: Some of those incidents involve skilled shooters.

 

[cluttonfred]

I have to say that I really don't understand where this thread is going. The OP was asking why the Sig P225/P6 had an eight-round magazine. That has been answered as a reflection of the norm at a time that the vast majority of U.S. LEO's were carrying six-shot revolvers and single-stack autos were the norm for European police and military around the world with a few exceptions like the Browning HP. All the talk about FBI shootouts and all the rest is just a bunch of off-topic noise.

 

[TestPilot]

But for 99% of the real-life scenarios in which a private citizen is likely to use a handgun -- or a rifle for that matter -- in self defense, high magazine capacity is unnecessary.

That can only come out of ignorance of how an actual deadly force encounter situation can go.

People who say this thinks they'd skillfully put a few rounds on the vitals to end the fight quickly. This is full of flawed assumptions.

Who says the vitals will be exposed to your shots?

Also, they overestimate their skills because they can hit "center mass" with their pistols at a range.

Well, I got some bad news for you. "Center mass" ain't vitals. Actual "vitals" that puts a man down instandly is spine or brain shots.

Your fancy "center mass" that hits a stomach may be about as effective as an arm or leg shot.

 

[rcmodel]

Well, I'm sure glad I just found out I was ignorant for thinking the 7+1 sometimes 1911 I carried for six years in the military, and 6 or 5 shot S&W's I carried for 40 years afterward was ignorant.

Geeze!

Glad I finally found out how ignorant I have been for 50+ years.

rc

 

[TestPilot]

Well, I'm sure glad I just found out I was ignorant for thinking the 7+1 sometimes 1911 I carried for six years in the military, and 6 or 5 shot S&W's I carried for 40 years afterward was ignorant.

Carrying a 5~8 shot pistol does not make you ignorant.

I have carried 5~6 shot pistols.

Refusing to acknowledge its limitation does.

 

[Bongo Boy]

One might ask the same question regarding the introduction of the 100x series of autopistols from Smith & Wesson about 10 years later, in 10mm. Here you have the expressed need for 'more firepower', and you have a cartridge that, like the 9mm, can be double-stacked with virtually no grip size disadvantage over the 1911 (the difference can be as little 1/8" wider grip).

Why? Jeeez who knows. Folks could argue "well weight, of course!" but I'm looking at fairly heavy handguns...by any comparison...yet still single-stacked.

Apparently "more firepower" did not extend too far beyond the ballistics of the cartridge, and having 15+1 in a 1911-sized frame didn't seem obvious or all that desirable. This is quite some number of years after your Sig example.

It's just my opinion, of course, but it's been suggested above by most who've responded...the likelihood of needing more than a few is quite remote. In fact, I'd say most of us grossly overestimate the odds we'll even get to draw the weapon at all, before the show is over. My personal view of 'likely scenarios' is that I'll be caught so off-guard I'll probably not draw the weapon at all and have little opportunity to engage a threat...let alone engage multiple targets and need more than 2 rounds.

I just don't think designers were looking to the 'shoot out' scenario as a viable marketing situation. I dunno. I go with 10+1 in a double-stack 10mm, because I can, and because these days dimwit psychopaths seem to abound.

 

[TestPilot]

One might ask the same question regarding the introduction of the 100x series of autopistols from Smith & Wesson about 10 years later, in 10mm. Here you have the expressed need for 'more firepower', and you have a cartridge than, like the 9mm, can be double-stacked with virtually no grip size disadvantage over the 1911 (the difference can be as little 1/8" wider grip).

Because those pistols were already a brick as it was.

Slim pistol grip gaining 1/8" is one thing. A brick gaining 1/8" is a different matter. You'd be surprised at what difference 1/8" can make.

 

[leadcounsel]

I have to say that I really don't understand where this thread is going. The OP was asking why the Sig P225/P6 had an eight-round magazine. That has been answered as a reflection of the norm at a time that the vast majority of U.S. LEO's were carrying six-shot revolvers and single-stack autos were the norm for European police and military around the world with a few exceptions like the Browning HP. All the talk about FBI shootouts and all the rest is just a bunch of off-topic noise.

I suppose the point or reason why I started this thread was to generate discussion feedback on whether people thought the engineers or requirements dropped the ball, so to speak, on a wonderful pistol with IMO a deficient 8 round capacity.

Peer guns of the era generally held around 6-8 rounds. So why stay with the peer group? I assert that anecdotal evidence, if not their collective understanding of guns, one would think would it would have at least occurred to them to plus up the capacity.

I think this is simply one gun that could have been nearly perfect, but for the capacity for it's intended purpose. It's interesting that it was designed based off the P220, and incorporated Brownings design features of the father gun... such as a thumb mag release rather than a heel release like the original P220. But not a higher capacity. Perhaps they needed to keep the contours the same as the P220 and could only fit 8 rounds...

Surely engineers had tape measures, and understood double stack, and must have marveled, even in 1970s, at the Browning Hi Power. It simply puzzles me that one of them didn't suggest "hey, let's fit as many rounds in this guy as possible and blow the competition out of the water.... they want 8, we'll give them 14!"

I literally have a CZ compact P01 in my hand, and a Sig P6 in the other, and there is simply no real difference in the grip width, height, or dimensions, and the CZ actually "feels" more contoured and better... yet it's 8 rounds versus a staggering 14 - not an insignificant difference.

Anyway it was just intended as an interesting conversation not a chest beating exercise.

 

[tarosean]

FACT: There HAS been multiple incidents where more than 8 rounds were fired to secure a gun fight victory.

aside from the Rolex dealer in the ghetto and the FFL in Florida... care to mention multiple other CIVILIAN incidents?

 

[leadcounsel]

aside from the Rolex dealer in the ghetto and the FFL in Florida... care to mention multiple other CIVILIAN incidents?

105 rounds fired in defense during robbery
http://www.afn.org/~guns/ayoob.html

Lance Thomas - survived 4 armed robberies, and killed several robbers
http://www.themodernsurvivalist.com...nse/watchmaker-turned-gunfighter-lance-thomas

6 rounds failed to do the job (emptied revolver)
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1992-03-15/news/9201240261_1_stab-wound-assailant-charles-falzon

5 shots against 2 assailants (emptied revolver)
http://www.wnd.com/2010/07/181341/

15 rounds (1 magazine)
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2010/11/19/lancaster-resident-says-he-shot-killed-burglar/

5 shots (emptied revolver)
http://www.naplesnews.com/news/crim...ler-armed-robbery-shot-back_20140521212359155

Lots more online if you care to look... tired of looking for you...

And that's not even the point of this thread...

 

[gc70]

Surely engineers had tape measures, and understood double stack, and must have marveled, even in 1970s, at the Browning Hi Power. It simply puzzles me that one of them didn't suggest "hey, let's fit as many rounds in this guy as possible and blow the competition out of the water.... they want 8, we'll give them 14!"

You may be asking the wrong question.

Who knows what the engineers at SIG were thinking in the mid-1970s. They might have already been thinking about what eventually became the P226 and P228. But SIG's entry in the German police pistol trials was a down-sized version of the existing P220. Down-sizing an existing design is probably a much safer and more reliable way to quickly produce a new pistol than making fundamental design changes.

The better question is probably how and why the German authorities reached the specifications they issued. They certainly could have demanded a gun with more capacity and the GP35 and CZ75 proved that it was clearly possible to make such a gun.

 

[kBob]

The P6 was just coming on line with many German Police Agencies in 1982. At that time there were individual police that were resistant to give up their Walther PP in 7.65mm/.32ACP.

Most states had uniforms that had a longish coat in those days and the pistol was belt carried under the coat and accessed through a longer open pleat over the holster. Holsters were mainly flap holsters.

Many GIs thought the Polezi were not armed, like the English regular Street cops of the time. I knew this not to be true from having worked Courtesy patrol with the Ulm Polezi in 1974. For that Courtesy patrol work, we had to wear dress greens and were unarmed while the Ulm Police were thought unarmed and were not. The team I worked with carried a PP for the older guy (that had started in the LEO business under Herr Hitler and carried a PP every since and was about to be forcibly retired) and the younger, yet senior Polezi carried a P1. When this younger cop worked occasional undercover he carried a Colt Commander in .45 ACP with his commanders blessing BTW. The big laugh for me was I was all excited about the "new" MP5 in their car and sure every US cop needed one in their car.....the Germans opined that US police were lucky being able to have a 12 gauge pump in their cars and powerful revolvers on their hips.....go figure.....the other guy's stuff always seem better.

I trained with the Police from Darmstadt while they were transitioning to the
P6 in 1982 and those that had kept their Walther PPs for a time were being forced to adapt the then new pistol. We fired both bulls eyes and man shaped targets from 3 meters flat footed to 50 from a rest. Looked about like what was going on training wise in most US locals at the time.

A couple of weeks later I trained with the Frankfurt (Main) Special Police Group, think SWAT, on the same range. They had the P6 for about a year at that point and were all for it. We did walking drills from the holster, including one where you were required to do a forward sumersault drawing during recovery and firing three rounds COM between 3 and 7 meters from the target
upon recovery. We also did room clearing using Zones.

I must admit to being more excited by the other weapons that day. The first was a MP5K set up like the semi pistols that were available a year or two later, no stock, but a sling loop on the back of the action that was connected to a leather harness the shooter wore. One extended both hands ( double pistol grip) and pressed forward until the sling was good and tight. They used rather long bursts at very close range with these 8 to 15 rounds and used them to "clear" closed doors or furniture they though suspect. Apparently shoot them all and let Gohd sort them out is not just a French concept. I was corrected because when the door went down and I had the MP5k I waited for and actual target instead of engaging suspicious furniture and doors immediately and then fired multiple two to three round bursts rather than half dumping the shorty magazine and was pronounced a failure.

The other was the MP5SD with we shot at 25, 35, and 50 meters on semi only. These were equipped with scopes in HK mounts I believe they were Stiener and had a range dial unique to these guns and ammo (subsonic and I believe about 130 grains, later fired a couple in a suppressed M1945 Swede and it was subsonic there as well.) While we were shooting and I had just come off line a group of USAF NCOs wandered over and asked if the Germans were training with air rifles. I roughly translated and a lot of the cops could not contain their laughter.

We finished the day with a few more pistol drills and the only magazine changes while firing of the day. Neither bunch did more than a couple of mag changes during a a single or two problems either day. It was apparently not an important issue to them on those days in front of the American, apparently 8 shots being considered plenty.

I might add they thought my CZ75 bulky and heavy, though they went ga-ga over my Series 70 Mark IV Colt .45ACP and the Speer 200 grain HP "Flying Ash Trays" The gun nut among them took great happiness in setting one of their 9x19mm rounds point first into the Speer hollow point and taunting their chief instructor.

They also liked my Stainless Mini-14. I had Ruger 20 round mags for it and they went through my three mags I brought rather quickly, as excited by the Ruger as I had been with the MP5SD.....go figure.

It was a different time and Germans were a different people. The young ones seemed quite happy with an eight shot 9x19 mm that was to be worn under a coat.

-kBob

 

[Sergei Mosin]

I doubt a whole lot of thought went into the specification of eight rounds. The P1 held eight rounds and the Luger held eight rounds; eight rounds had been good enough for the last seventy-odd years, and eight rounds would be good enough for the next seventy-odd years, too.

 

[Jim Watson]

Agreed, eight was enough in those days.
The German police specs included maximum outside dimensions, a Box.
The P225/P6 derivative of P220 was a considerable shrink job. It got a shorter barrel and the first Sig-Sauer use of twisted wire recoil spring to make use of the reduced spring space.
The grip angle is more vertical and the butt rounded to take a little off the back end.
The bore diameter is smaller to squeeze the bullet out a little faster to reach the muzzle energy spec from the shortened barrel.
The P6 was the only one of the three to pass shooting tests for reliability, accuracy, and durability on the first pass. Walther and H&K had to do some tweaking and another round of testing to be accepted.
More German departments bought P6 than P5 or P7, maybe more than both combined.

The "high capacity" P226 was a Sig-Maremont project to compete with Beretta in US military bidding.
The P228 was a double column development of the P225.

 

[kBob]

re Miami FBI CF

The agent closest to the bad guys when the cars stopped moving was unarmed by himself. He had been uncomfortable in the car seat and wedged his gun into the crack between the seat and back of the passenger seat. In the bang up of stopping the bad guys car this revolver was "lost" in the confussion.

I believe that was the biggest error in the event and that agent is largely at fault for the other agents wounds as he was unable to make telling shots right at the first before the Mini-14 even came into play.

Once he recovered he went on to testify for an "Assault Weapons" ban, in Florida at least, giving quavering voice testimony about the horror of confronting an man wielding a Mini-14 and the severity of his own wounds. Fortunately that ban failed in CJ committee despite it having been labeled a sure thing by the press and leaders of the legislature and despite this man's testimony.

-kBob

 

[Bullet Bob]

"The only thing that a hi -cap mag does is add weight and usually bulk to a gun. I don't need more weight. I can't keep my pants up now. And it is my belief that if I can't hit my target with the first 8 shots another 7 to 10 rounds probably won't help.JMO"

Where the heck is the "like" button on this forum

I guess the internet report commandos scared it away,

 

[jimbo555]

Less than a month ago Officer Jacob Stewart of the Flagstaff Arizona police was killed by a man carrying a 6 shot 22cal single action revolver. The officer was responding to a domestic dispute call and was about to frisk the suspect when he drew the revolver from his coat and fired. There is video if you google it. Terrible incident, the Officer was only 23. Officer Stewart was unable to return fire.

 

[leadcounsel]

Heck, why carry 8, or even 5, when we all know it just takes 1!

 

[Walt Sherrill]

The only thing that a hi -cap mag does is add weight and usually bulk to a gun. I don't need more weight. I can't keep my pants up now. And it is my belief that if I can't hit my target with the first 8 shots another 7 to 10 rounds probably won't help.JMO

I don't know if the weight and bulk are an issue, but even with just 8 rounds, it sounds as though you probably need a good SHOULDER holster.

Modesty may demand it!

(I probably should think about one, too.)

 

[leadcounsel]

"The only thing that a hi -cap mag does is add weight and usually bulk to a gun. I don't need more weight. I can't keep my pants up now. And it is my belief that if I can't hit my target with the first 8 shots another 7 to 10 rounds probably won't help.JMO"

Where the heck is the "like" button on this forum

I guess the internet report commandos scared it away,

Well - 6 extra 9mm rounds weights about 2.5 oz. Is carrying your car keys pulling your pants down too?

And, as stated, the CZ 75 compact mag is 14 rounds and the same size as the P6 holding 8.

 

[silversport]

Okay...the extra cartridges weight 2.5 oz more...how much heavier is the CZ75 compared to the SIG P225???...you see he slippery slope you are on...is 5-6 oz more too much??? It is for some and not for others...

You asked initially why 8...that is what was called for in the West German Police Trials...times marches on...at the time perhaps 8 was enough...

Bill

 

[leadcounsel]

Okay...the extra cartridges weight 2.5 oz more...how much heavier is the CZ75 compared to the SIG P225???...you see he slippery slope you are on...is 5-6 oz more too much??? It is for some and not for others...

You asked initially why 8...that is what was called for in the West German Police Trials...times marches on...at the time perhaps 8 was enough...

Bill

And that's probably the answer.

We could easily ask the same thing about the original M16. Same capacity as the M14, 20, as implemented in Vietnam.

It would take some time to develop and adopt the 30 round magazine which seems obvious in hindsight. Particularly given our enemies were using the AK which held 30 rounds.