Your favored 223/556 defensive ammo?

The original M16's had a 1:12 twist which helped the 55gr FMJ yaw for best terminal ballistics. Most modern rifling has a much faster twist and may not create the yaw need for tissue disruption.

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf

about half way down this page has some good rifle terminal ballistics:http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

link to Dr. Roberts' forum: http://pistol-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?19-Ammunition&

edit: Spelling and grammar.

Gotigers, the first two articles emphasize the importance of yaw and fragmentation in the M193.I agree with this. The third article to me is not accurate.My experince with the 16 showed that at the combat range I use it(under 100 yards normally) it was very lethal in all respects as to where hit.Yaw and fragmentation worked.

Most modern rifling has a much faster twist and may not create the yaw need for tissue disruption.

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You seem to be confusing the 1:7 twist bbl of the M16A2 as the cause of M855 ball ammunition's lack of yaw, rather the bullet's construction. M193 will still yaw out of a 1:7 twist bbl when it encounters a soft barrier.

That is not what the experts say.

Both do work, but are not optimal. I will use m193 and m855, if I have to. I can't afford 3000 rounds of TAP or MK262. So, I have several mags of good stuff and the rest in m193. I will grab the mags with MK262 or TAP before the M193.

Easy to google and read about it. LOL, yall must be reading different links. Because what I read says, there is better stuff out there.

I'm moving on. This arguments gets old. There is a good reason that ammo manufacturers make better ammo and a reason why PD's and the military uses that newer ammo. MK262, MK318, etc, etc.

The original M16's had a 1:12 twist which helped the 55gr FMJ yaw for best terminal ballistics

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No, no it did not. Spin-stabilizing a round in air and spin-stabilizing a round in a mostly liquid medium like flesh are two entirely different things. Keeping a round spin-stabilized as it passes from air through a liquid medium is a third thing. You would need rifling like a machine screw to stop M193 from yawing when it hits something. See: http://www.razoreye.net/mirror/ammo-oracle/AR15_com_Ammo_Oracle_Mirror.htm#twistduh for the science behind it and a deeper explanation.

DocGKR has published at least a dozen pictures of M193 gel shots from 1:7 twist barrels showing yaw and fragmentation.

There is a separate issue called "fleet yaw" that affects M193 and M855 both; but that has nothing to do with the twist rate. That phenomenon could show two different results for two of the same model, same twist rate, shooting the same lot of ammo.

I don't always shoot .223 but when I do I prefer Wolf. I'd rather shoot what I practice with and know is 100% reliable. The fancy shamansy stuff is too expensive to practice with on a regular basis, and I'd rather have a half dozen slightly smaller .223 holes than worry about a malfunction.

In any event, I prefer 7.62x39.

Sebastian the Ibis said:

I don't always shoot .223 but when I do I prefer Wolf. I'd rather shoot what I practice with and know is 100% reliable. The fancy shamansy stuff is too expensive to practice with on a regular basis, and I'd rather have a half dozen slightly smaller .223 holes than worry about a malfunction.

In any event, I prefer 7.62x39.

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Curious...how many rounds of Wolf .223 have you fired at 100% reliability?

Hand loaded Nosler 77gr BTHP (Mk262 Mod 0 clone).

Warp said:

Curious...how many rounds of Wolf .223 have you fired at 100% reliability?

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I personally have fired 700 trouble free rounds of it through my AR, but now with sponsored brass cased ammo I don't have a need for Wolf. And with it all casting about the same now anyways...

allaroundhunter said:

I personally have fired 700 trouble free rounds of it through my AR, but now with sponsored brass cased ammo I don't have a need for Wolf. And with it all casting about the same now anyways...

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You need to shop elsewhere if steel case .223 costs as much as brass 5.56

Q3131. Probably won't have my AR handy when/if I need to shoot someone so I didn't invest time and money in acquiring and proving top notch defensive ammo. Most important thing is reliability.

Warp said:

You need to shop elsewhere if steel case .223 costs as much as brass 5.56

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I will continue to shop where I have been, thanks. My local store has done everything possible to maintain fair and 'normal' prices since the recent scare began and I support them for it. Notice I didn't say that they cost the same, I said "about". At my local stores the cost difference between steel and brass cased .223 is smaller than it was pre-Newtown (about $1.30 difference per 20 rounds currently). If I was having to buy .223 then I would fork over the extra dollar or so per box.

None. To much of ear plugs + ear muffs affair for me to consider. I did think .300 Whisper would make nice defensive package but could not buy S&W rifle because I could not find ammo for it anywhere.

Heavies are definitely the way to go. Barrier Blind/Bondeds are nice too.

M193 and M855 are lethal, but pathetic in comparison to good bullets.

77 Nosler, 75 gr PRVI. (11.5" Barrel)



77 gr SMK (14.5" Barrel)



Gold Dot


Q3131a1

Markm87,

What distance were those 77gr/75gr rounds tested at?

Thanks

Those were water jug shot at like 5 yards out of an 11.5" barrel. I was kinda going after a test of Home Defense ammo.

My favorite is the 77 SMK. Penetration AND frag city. The Gold Dots are great too, but expensive and hard to find.

I would like to find some Hornady .223 75 Grn TAP to load a magazine or 3 with for home protection, but I can't find it ANYWHERE. So for now I'll rely on good 'ole M193, and will continue to do so for bulk ammo needs along with possibly M855.

As a side note, is Hornady 75 grn OTM the same as TAP? I get confroosed by all the Hornady product designations (TAP, OTM, Superformance, etc).

As a side note, is Hornady 75 grn OTM the same as TAP? I get confroosed by all the Hornady product designations (TAP, OTM, Superformance, etc).

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Well, there's the original TAP (Tactical Application Police) ammo that's supposed to be sold only to LE, and sold only through Hornady's LE distribution & dealer network. Then there's the commercial sales TAP FPD (For Personal Defense) ammo that came about to meet consumer demand for the TAP name.

TAP FPD ammo is loaded into nickel plated brass cases. Since nickel is slicker than brass it eases extraction. That's the only difference between TAP FPD and the other commercial cartridges loaded with the same bullet. Superformance is loaded slightly hotter than standard lines. Hornady also offers two 5.56 Superformance cartridges that are loaded to full 5.56 NATO pressure as the name suggests. Hornady has temporarily suspended production of most TAP rifle ammo in an effort to keep production up on plain brass cased cartridges.

Interestingly, the original LE sales only TAP ammo is still loaded into plain brass cases. There are also several TAP .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO loads that have no equivalent in Hornady's standard commercial line or TAP FPD line. This includes the original TAP Barrier round, a 62 gr bonded core JSP that was developed to meet Dept. Of Energy requirements for their nuclear power plant security teams.

Clear as mud?

I'm gonna play devils advocate and say this. It really doesn't matter what you get shot with at this point when. Anything coming at you at a speed of over 2600 fps regardless of the bullet size and length will leave a permanent cavitation wound that is fatal along with a temporary cavitation wound that will turn your soft organs to mush.

This is a simple case where velocity kills. The 223 will penetrate more that the 12 ga slug

ms6852 said:

I'm gonna play devils advocate and say this. It really doesn't what you get shot with at this point when. Anything coming at you at a speed of over 2600 fps regardless of the bullet size and length will leave a permanent cavitation wound that or a temporary cavitation wound that will turn your soft organs to mush.

This is a simple case where velocity kills. The 223 will penetrate more that the 12 ga slug

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There are real world, documented examples that disagree with your statement.

TAP FPD ammo is loaded into nickel plated brass cases. Since nickel is slicker than brass it eases extraction. That's the only difference between TAP FPD and the other commercial cartridges loaded with the same bullet. Superformance is loaded slightly hotter than standard lines. Hornady also offers two 5.56 Superformance cartridges that are loaded to full 5.56 NATO pressure as the name suggests.

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This does help, thank you. I have seen 75 grain Superformance loads. If they use the same 75 grain bullet as the 75 grain TAP FPD, then I may pick up the SF load.

And to clarify, the Open Tip Match simply the name given to the bullet itself, be it a 75 grain TAP, TAP FPD or Superformance?

55gr Hornady Vmax

And to clarify, the Open Tip Match simply the name given to the bullet itself, be it a 75 grain TAP, TAP FPD or Superformance?

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Exactly, Open Tip Match or OTM is just a type of bullet itself. I'd actually rather have the Superformance .223 or 5.56 over the TAP when comparing the three 75 gr OTM offerings. I'll take the higher velocity to extend fragmentation range over the nickel case.

ugaarguy said:

Exactly, Open Tip Match or OTM is just a type of bullet itself. I'd actually rather have the Superformance .223 or 5.56 over the TAP when comparing the three 75 gr OTM offerings. I'll take the higher velocity to extend fragmentation range over the nickel case.

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...but there are many different OTM bullets/projectiles.

Even within a manufacturer's lineup, two different OTM 75gr projectiles are not necessarily the same.

I'm fairly certain that NOT all 75gr Hornady OTM bullets are the same.