Lehigh Denese 9mm 105gr ME flesh test

stressed · Feb 17, 2014

Lehigh Defense 9mm 105gr ME flesh test

This test was done to see the effectiveness of the Lehigh Maximum Expansion 9mm load. First and foremost I want to state that animal did not suffer, and was culled instantly through the head before other shots as per normal butcher routine. Was not worried about placement of other shots as this pig is for sausage only.

If you have rounds you are curious on performance, if you send them to me I can test them on next butcher. I will being doing this each time on sausage pigs.

Sow: 250 lbs
Ammunition: Lehigh Defense 9mm 105gr ME
Federal Guard Dog EFMJ 105gr (Initial cull round through head - leaving 16" barrel around 1500 fps for over 500 fpe, dead before she hit the ground, no exit)
Weapon: Sterling SMG Carbine (I wanted to use the carbine to prevent over penetration. However, due to the much higher FPS of the 16" barrel the round shed it's petals, and acted like a fragmenting round. This is why I'm guessing there is not +P load in the ME but their is in the fragmenting Lehigh line, due to the ME not being designed for these higher velocities.)

However you will see the round shedding it's petals to be particularly destructive, especially to the heart.

First shot put behind the shoulder, penetrated rib, fragmented and base ended up resting in windpipe for roughly 14" of penetration through flesh, organ and bone. Petals were between 8" - 12" penetration and were lodged in various areas. This would have been a lethal shot.

Lehigh Maximum Expansion 105 on left, Lehigh Fragmenting +P 105 on right.

Fired bullet top

Fired bullet base

Entrance

Exit through rib into chest cavity

Entrance of petals into heart

Exit of petals from heart

Bruising on lungs. (Hydrostatic shock?)

chris in va · Feb 17, 2014

Gory, but interesting and more accurate info vs gel tests. BTW it's 'petals'.

Jim K · Feb 17, 2014

Not sure of the point. A 9mm bullet will penetrate that far and destroy the heart. And so? Nothing very magical about that and nothing that would indicate only one brand/type of bullet would have that effect.

Jim

stressed · Feb 17, 2014

Jim K said:
Not sure of the point. A 9mm bullet will penetrate that far and destroy the heart. And so? Nothing very magical about that and nothing that would indicate only one brand/type of bullet would have that effect.

Jim

But will it expand reliably? This did not, however it was still functional most obviously although unintended.

When I carry something that I am putting my life on the line for, it had better work. We all see the gel and chrono tests everywhere. But what about real world? The point of the bullets design as a defense round?

If I can help someone choose a defense round from tests, then I've helped someone.

481 · Feb 18, 2014

Interesting test.

stressed said:
But will it expand reliably? This did not, however it was still functional most obviously although unintended.

By that criterion, ball would also be 'functional' and this gets at the heart (pun very much intended

) of the issue: It ain't what you hit 'em with, it's where you hit 'em.

In other words, bullet design is no substitute for bullet placement.

481 · Feb 18, 2014

stressed said:
Bruising on lungs. (Hydrostatic shock?)

Nope, more than likely the lung tissue suffered that damage because its elastic strength was exceeded by the local effect of the temporary stretch cavity.

stressed · Feb 19, 2014

I think some of you guys may be missing the point here. This is a penetration test through real world materials, flesh organ and bone, nothing more. It does not have anything to do with shot placement. Are gel tests about penetration and expansion or shot placement? If you.. uh.. hit the gel block, I think your shot placement is ok. I did not use a ball round as I have used them before and I already know they will exit the animal, expecialy when fired from a carbine.

I've seen a gel test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OIMa1hBetw) where penetration is 10 1/2 inches in gel. Penetration through flesh, organs and bone was 14 inches at a lighter weight. (from a carbine) FBI minimum standard is 12 inches in gel. This is flesh vs gel penetration to get an idea of what to expect.

Even though the flesh test exceeded the gel test, I still would say the 9mm 105gr Lehigh Defense ME load is acceptable. I was impressed at the area damage, even without exact shot placement, still had a couple lethal heart wounds. Shot was fired from 3 feet or so. I plan on testing through a 4" barreled pistol was well.

For those wanting to test shot placement, you would have to shoot an animal alive and watch incapacitation time from shot until unconciousness to know if you hit the right area, like the goat tests. However I am not one for unusually cruel treatment and will not be doing so. I also like my meat to taste good, not stressed..

I was not aware the pics would upset other shooters. I suppose I could post the load and penetration results without pictures, however I felt that other shooters might want to see exactly how they performed.

Thanks

Nick Burkhardt · Feb 19, 2014

So the Maximum Expansion acted like a Fragmenting round?

stressed · Feb 19, 2014

Nick Burkhardt said:
So the Maximum Expansion acted like a Fragmenting round?

Nick,

Yes it did however that is only because I fired it through a 16" carbine barrel where it surpassed it's operating range by 200 fps or so. This was confirmed with me by the gentlemen from Lehigh. (This is why they don't offer the ME in +P)

I plan on doing another test with the same ammo out of a 4" pistol for proper velocity and expansion. They tell me the Controlled Fracturing can be run at any velocity, hence why it is offered in +P.

481 · Feb 19, 2014

stressed said:
I think some of you guys may be missing the point here. This is a penetration test through real world materials, flesh organ and bone, nothing more. It does not have anything to do with shot placement. Are gel tests about penetration and expansion or shot placement? If you.. uh.. hit the gel block, I think your shot placement is ok. I did not use a ball round as I have used them before and I already know they will exit the animal, expecialy when fired from a carbine.

I don't think anyone missed the point. You shot a hog with a round that you wished to test, yeah? The problem with testing in animals is that because of their heterogenous composition, the test results you get and any conclusions you draw based upon those results are unlikely to be valid for any other test shot you make. Ordnance gelatin offers a valid, correlated test medium that duplicates the average density of the human body (bones included) and offers a repeatable test bed should someone wish to replicate the test.

stressed said:
I've seen a gel test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OIMa1hBetw) where penetration is 10 1/2 inches in gel. Penetration through flesh, organs and bone was 14 inches at a lighter weight. (from a carbine) FBI minimum standard is 12 inches in gel. This is flesh vs gel penetration to get an idea of what to expect.

In this particular instance that might very well be true, however you cannot say that for another test of this bullet in an animal since the results are unlikely to be duplicated. Such testing in animals introduces the variable of an inconsistent test media that will in all likelihood produce a large variance of outcomes even with a large number of test shots.

stressed said:
Even though the flesh test exceeded the gel test, I still would say the 9mm 105gr Lehigh Defense ME load is acceptable. I was impressed at the area damage, even without exact shot placement, still had a couple lethal heart wounds. Shot was fired from 3 feet or so. I plan on testing through a 4" barreled pistol was well.

Based on a sample size of "1", that's quite a leap of faith.

stressed said:
I was not aware the pics would upset other shooters. I suppose I could post the load and penetration results without pictures, however I felt that other shooters might want to see exactly how they performed.

Thanks

Looking at the eight preceding responses, I see no one claiming that they were 'upset' by your test.

stressed · Feb 19, 2014

I'm confused, I never said anyone was upset? Just expaining better the purpose of why I conducted this.

C0untZer0 · Feb 19, 2014

I was kind of surprised about the buzz over the G2 RIP ammo when the old Halo ammo (now Liberty Defense) and Lehigh pretty much do the same thing.

Is the G2 somehow more radical because it has more petals? I don't know, it's basically fragmenting ammo, small fragments come off and don't penetrate that deeply and the core continues to penetrate. That is the same principle for all these kinds of rounds.

I don't see the sense of it in a 9mm, when 9mm HP ammunition is only going to penetrate 14-16" anyway.

If you have something like 10mm, 44 magnum, 45+P that is moving a lot of lead and can over penetrate, then having fragments come off penetrating 5-6" while a core goes on to penetrate 14" or so inches makes sense.

It makes even more sense to me in a shotgun slug.

If a Lehigh or RIP slug can deposit all it's energy in a person, penetrate to 14" or so and not over penetrate and this fragmenting technology helps it not to over penetrate then it makes sense and I am all for it.

481 · Feb 19, 2014

stressed said:
I'm confused, I never said anyone was upset? Just expaining better the purpose of why I conducted this.

You first brought it up here:

stressed said:
I was not aware the pics would upset other shooters. I suppose I could post the load and penetration results without pictures, however I felt that other shooters might want to see exactly how they performed.

Evidently you felt it was an issue, otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it.

Jim K · Feb 19, 2014

The OP is touting a specific type of bullet by showing the damage it did to a heart. My point was that a bullet through the heart (any bullet) will kill; the amount of tissue damage to a dead body is irrelevant.

Jim

Lehigh Denese 9mm 105gr ME flesh test

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