I am having a hard time understanding the 38 special

improperlyaged said:

I have for the longest time heard that today's +p rated rounds are no different than the older 38 special design, that many companies down load the 38 so that if fired through an older gun, a kaboom won't happen. Is this true? Can someone educate me on this?

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I believe that to be true but you will have to decide for yourself. Of course any time you fire ammo that is higher pressure than not, you will accelerate ware to your gun. (but not enough to matter IMO)

Currently standard .38 Special ammo has a MAP of only 17,000 PSI. Depending upon which source you check the +P stuff is either 18,500 PSI or 20,000 PSI. The old SAAMI standard for .38 Special ammo used to be 21,000 PSI if I remember correctly. If you look at some of the load data for .38 Special +P loads it's barely over 17,000 PSI. That's hardly what I would call "hot ammo."

Absolutely agree with the above post.

Back when I got into this business (handgun shooting) the standard 38 Special cartridge was a 158g bullet at 800-850 fps, depending on barrel length.

Last year I had a chance to chronograph Remington's "FBI load", a +P 158g SWC-HP from a 4" revolver. Six shots averaged just over 800 fps. Not exactly a barn burner!

Dave

There has been relatively little to no change in .38 spl standard pressure in the last 100 years. Velocities have remained at the 700 to 800 fps from a 4" revolver using a lead 158gr bullet.

There has been higher performance ammo available well before the manufacturing association SAAMI decided on calling all such ammo +P. +P used to be called "Police Loads", Super X, Hi-Vel, etc. Those that used such ammo knew that it was intended for heavier framed .38's like the Colt OP and the S&W old 44 frame handguns. There was also specialty loaders and small companies that put out hot ammo, one of the most remembered being Super Vel that where similar to Buffalo Bore and DRT.

When the first aluminum alloy frame handguns where introduced they could be ruined by heavy loads like +P but the damage was frame stretching and premature wear in lighter steel framed handguns. Modern metallurgy has made for stronger light weight guns that are able to shoot +P ammo without wearing out prematurely. It's not advisable to shoot +P ammo out of handguns not rated to fire such, at least not very frequently.

The old SAAMI standard for .38 Special ammo used to be 21,000 PSI if I remember correctly.

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Got the number correct but the units where CUP not PSI. PSI being more accurate using piezoelectric sensors rather than the non correlated copper crush CUP scale.

I tend to believe that +P 38 Special ammo is fine in older S&W and Colt firearms. Now prolonged firing of +P ammo in non-steel lightweight guns can over time pre-maturely loosen components. But heck no one really thinks that the lightweights were intended to shoot 10s of thousands of rounds anyway. Keep in mind that no one is talking about pressure approaching .357 mag levels but only +P which in my mind is 10% higher.

Back in the day when +P came out, Dick Metcalf did a 5,000 round test in Shooting Times through two Air weight S&W J-Frames. (Not +P rated guns at the time)
2,500 rounds of +P through each gun as I recall.

At the end of the test, there were no measurable differences or wear in the two guns.
No top strap cutting, no change in B/C gap, no change in end-shake, no nothing.

The only things that changed were the triggers got better.
And the velocity increased slightly as the barrels got smoother.

rc

Around 1972 some substantial changes were made in the way pressure was measured, and a lot of the confusion today can be traced to that because in many cases data comparison is an apples to nuts sort of thing. CPU (copper units of pressure) is not the same as PSI (pressure per square inch).

Also with the new technology is was possible to plot the pressure curve from back to front, where the older method only indicated what the pressure was at a particular spot.

Ammunition manufacturers are usually very conservative because they have no idea what particular handgun their products will be fired in, and gun manufacturers have no way of knowing if someone who has a revolver (or pistol for that matter) that was made in or before 1914 is going to shoot something in it they shouldn't. It is far easier to just say "No" then to explain all of this.

Those who test factory ammunition often find that the performance is less then what SAAMI industry standards allow, but some of it is loaded right up to the limit.

Owners of older guns should keep in mind that Plus-P ammunition may or may not damage their handgun over time, but in many cases if something breaks getting replacement parts and service may be between difficult to improbable.

Since the difference between standard and Plus-P is usually small, I make a practice of shooting standard-loads only in guns that the manufacturer hasn't rated for the latter ammunition. For those who think they have to have the (questionably) greater punch from Plus-P they're plenty of guns available that are rated to use it.

.38 Special isn't a varmint round, even if the loads aren't barn burners. Anecdotal stories about soldiers using them in WWII rattle around in my mind, using the anemic 130gr ball. One had a soldier shoot an enemy soldier in the sternum. It was found in the enemy soldier's rucksack, having completely perforated him.

Another soldier, this one having been dropped behind lines to coordinate resistance fighters, dumped six rounds from his .38 into an enemy soldier's chest as he made his way to his extraction point.

Have there been failures? Sure. But the round is a combat round, and anything we're likely to carry today is likely to work if it hits the mark.

I have for the longest time heard that today's +p rated rounds are no different than the older 38 special design, that many companies down load the 38 so that if fired through an older gun, a kaboom won't happen. Is this true? Can someone educate me on this?

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I think there was a 38/44 that was close to a +P+, and it was only chambered in N frames. Old pistols were made out of lesser materials, very old, like pre 1930 stuff, has a reputation of not even being heat treated.

The pressure standards for 38 Special are the same since the round came out. I would not assume that any non +P pistol will hold up to +P. I talked to the guy doing warranty work on Interarms Rossi pistols. My Rossi is a non +P. He claimed to have seen many Rossi's blown up with +P ammunition.

Use the ammunition the gun was designed for.

I unknowingly loaded two +P rounds into an old Charter Arms undercover .38. Caused a quarter inch crack in the barrel at the forcing cone and bent the crane enough to keep the cylinder from opening.
I like my old S&W 640 Cent. Its etched with rated for +P+

today's +p rated rounds are no different than the older 38 special

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My testing of old -vs- new standard loads does not indicate that. Although I have much more testing to do, standard loads from the 60's and 70's are basically the same as today.

The confusion comes when looking at old advertised factory ammo velocity, which was significantly overstated. That happened because the ammo was not tested in actual revolvers, but in long unvented test barrels. In 1978 industry standards changed, the advertised velocities dropped, but the actual results remained much the same.

.38 special used to be the cats meow.....a puny round now....outgunned by every thug, gangbanger out there.

I have shot a lot of ammo from the 70s that dad found when we moved while I was in college. We always screwed around a bit and tried to outdo each other playing horse or something on the farm, especially at the sinkhole that was used as a landfill in the 60s. Some really long shots come to mind at a door to a Chevy vega the new ammo and old ammo had basically the same POA for that POI even at 150-200 yards. I do feel like the ammo then was made better, but not hotter. The reason so much talk is about weak loads today is different powders doing similar things, and a lot of modern cartridges leaving the 38spl in the dust on velocity, energy, recoil etc. back then the 38spl was pretty much top notch for handguns until the magnums came into existence. .45colt was still at black powder pressures in large part and the guns huge and heavy in comparison. People remember it as the top of the heap where now it's nothing too special.

WestKentucky said:

I have shot a lot of ammo from the 70s that dad found when we moved while I was in college. We always screwed around a bit and tried to outdo each other playing horse or something on the farm, especially at the sinkhole that was used as a landfill in the 60s. Some really long shots come to mind at a door to a Chevy vega the new ammo and old ammo had basically the same POA for that POI even at 150-200 yards. I do feel like the ammo then was made better, but not hotter. The reason so much talk is about weak loads today is different powders doing similar things, and a lot of modern cartridges leaving the 38spl in the dust on velocity, energy, recoil etc. back then the 38spl was pretty much top notch for handguns until the magnums came into existence. .45colt was still at black powder pressures in large part and the guns huge and heavy in comparison. People remember it as the top of the heap where now it's nothing too special.

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Sorry, I can't agree with a lot of what you said. Which "modern cartridges" leave the .38 Special in the dust? I can't think of anything new on the market except for the .327 Magnum and it's a failure.

There isn't much that will outdo the .45 Colt. A 250gr bullet @ 900 fps will probably shoot clean through most game in North America. Other than a magnum cartridges, the 45 Colt is still at the top of the heap and is still special IMO. The magnums will do it louder and with more recoil but dead is dead and the 45 Colt will make-um-dead!

Just because it's old doesn't make it obsolete.

45tex said:

I unknowingly loaded two +P rounds into an old Charter Arms undercover .38. Caused a quarter inch crack in the barrel at the forcing cone and bent the crane enough to keep the cylinder from opening.
I like my old S&W 640 Cent. Its etched with rated for +P+

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Really? If only 2 rounds of .38 Special +P ammo destroyed your Charter Arms revolver that revolver was already broken and you didn't see it.

The current MAP for standard pressure .38 Special ammo is 17,000 PSI. The current MAP for .38 Special +P ammo is 18,500 PSI but most commercial .38 Special +P ammo doesn't even come close. I see no way 2 rounds would trash a perfectly good revolver unless it was not perfectly good to begin with.

I doubt if you somehow fired 2 rounds of commercial .357 Magnum ammo in a Charter Arms .38 Special you would do the damage you described. Besides, the Charter Arms Undercover and Undercover Lite .38 Special revolvers are all rated for +P ammo. (even the Pink ones lol)

One of the reasons I like the .357 Mag J revolvers is I can use +p .38s all day with no fear. Don't matter what load just stuff them in and fire away.

Deaf

I believe that to be true but you will have to decide for yourself. Of course any time you fire ammo that is higher pressure than not, you will accelerate ware to your gun. (but not enough to matter IMO)

Currently standard .38 Special ammo has a MAP of only 17,000 PSI. Depending upon which source you check the +P stuff is either 18,500 PSI or 20,000 PSI. The old SAAMI standard for .38 Special ammo used to be 21,000 PSI if I remember correctly. If you look at some of the load data for .38 Special +P loads it's barely over 17,000 PSI. That's hardly what I would call "hot ammo."

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Back in the day when +P came out, Dick Metcalf did a 5,000 round test in Shooting Times through two Air weight S&W J-Frames. (Not +P rated guns at the time)
2,500 rounds of +P through each gun as I recall.

At the end of the test, there were no measurable differences or wear in the two guns.
No top strap cutting, no change in B/C gap, no change in end-shake, no nothing.

The only things that changed were the triggers got better.
And the velocity increased slightly as the barrels got smoother.

rc

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I remember when I was a "young" member of THR that I was reproached by another member because I said that carring five .38SPL+P in a not +P rated snub should not be a problem for the gun. It still makes me LOL.

45tex said:

I unknowingly loaded two +P rounds into an old Charter Arms undercover .38. Caused a quarter inch crack in the barrel at the forcing cone and bent the crane enough to keep the cylinder from opening.
I like my old S&W 640 Cent. Its etched with rated for +P+

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I find it highly unlikely that your S&W is rated for +P+, as there is no standard for +P+. Any ammo labeled as such is ususally a marketing gimmick and/or is simply a way of stating that is above SAAMI standards. How much above is anyone's guess, so a gun maker has nothing to go by to decide if the gun can handle it.

Sorry, I can't agree with a lot of what you said. Which "modern cartridges" leave the .38 Special in the dust? I can't think of anything new on the market except for the .327 Magnum and it's a failure.

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Well, 9mm actually out performs 38. Any of the Magnums do. 500 sw. 454 casull. 40 sw. Thats just keeping it to normalish reovolvers and not freaky 444 marlin revolvers.. If we go into all handguns, 38 super, 357 sig, 10mm, 460 rowland.. you get the idea.

Then again, that depends on what you call new...

ArchAngelCD - I can't think of anything new on the market except for the .327 Magnum and it's a failure.

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That's a topic of its own and one on which there will be some disagreement. After all, Ruger is just coming out with a new offering in .327 Federal Magnum. For .327 H&R Magnum, you might be right, but it is certainly not "new".

I find it highly unlikely that your S&W is rated for +P+,

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Lucky Derby, the poster is correct that his gun actually says +P+ on the underside of the topstrap, read this...

I looked in a couple load manuals, and for the ones that included pressures, it was rare to spot a max that was even 16000, let alone 17000. Even +p loads were below 17000 in many cases. I think in many instances, +p ammo would be bought rather than reloaded, but just sayin'.

That 640 in the old ad sure is pretty

Anecdotal stories about soldiers using them in WWII rattle around in my mind, using the anemic 130gr ball.

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Point of history.

The .38 Spl ammo used in WWII had a 158 grain RN-FMJ bullet loaded to full power.

The anemic 130 grain load didn't come about until the early 1950's for use in the alloy cylinder S&W M13 Aircrew revolvers issued to SAC bomber crews.

The guns proved to be a failure and some blew cylinders even with the light 130 grain loads, and were soon removed from service and destroyed.

But the anemic 130 grain military M41 load became standard, and is still with us today.

rc

thanks Scythe. And to the point of the 45colt, sure it can do a lot but not in most guns available today nor in many guns available 40 years ago as we are discussing.

Archangel we will have to agree to disagree on your post #14 and my post #13 because by my interpretation of your response you are concluding technology stopped advancing when the 38spl came about which is not true. Lots of advancements have came about, mainly in autoloaders but there are plenty guns arguably better than 38spl for many purposes, even in revolvers. Notably smaller bullets are packing comparable punch these days in 32h&r mag or 327 federal not to mention auto-cartridge wheel guns in 9mm 40sw 45acp and even the lowly .380. 38spl was and is a great duty round that has changed very little other than the projectile technology it is loaded with.