Does open carrying long guns really help persuade public opinions in a good way?

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It's funny that you mention this, I was on my way to work Friday morning and passed a gentleman wearing camo and carrying a rifle on his shoulder via a sling. It didn't bother me one bit. He was clearly on his way out huntin on one of the last days of the season. He wasn't acting crazy or really doing anythig with the rifle other than carrying it on his shoulder. Nope I didn't care one but and neither did anyone around me in their vehicles. Now if he had been pointing it at people or acting in a crazed manner then things might have been different. As far as I can tell it's your right whether it's a good idea or not could be debated but the fact that we even are debating it tells me the second is already on its way out. It shouldn't even be up for debate.
 
I agree with the above statement as well. And no it is today's world because we allow it to be. Americans have become lazy and apparently are going to welcome a police state with open arms. People still believe they can change things through the two party system, not goin to happen. It's two sides of the same coin.
 
I'm almost convinced that the OC movement in Texas, especially the "come and take it texas" group, is actually a very clever anti-gun movement.

All the press has been negative. All it does is cause fear (and if it doesn't, those people are ALREADY on your side, so you've accomplished nothing). None of the people they're trying to "persuade" have a vote, except the legislators that are now fitting panic buttons (way to go, dip****s). Hell, the photo of the fat guy and his friend look exactly like something you'd see under the headline "mass shooting in <insert place>" and the media knows it.

We have enough problems maintaining our rights, thanks very much - we don't need people supposedly on our side handing the opposition boatloads of ammunition to use against us.

Flyers, t-shirts and websites inform, OC'ing doesn't.
 
DHJenkins said:
I'm almost convinced that the OC movement in Texas, especially the "come and take it texas" group, is actually a very clever anti-gun movement.

All the press has been negative. All it does is cause fear (and if it doesn't, those people are ALREADY on your side, so you've accomplished nothing). None of the people they're trying to "persuade" have a vote, except the legislators that are now fitting panic buttons (way to go, dip****s). Hell, the photo of the fat guy and his friend look exactly like something you'd see under the headline "mass shooting in <insert place>" and the media knows it.

We have enough problems maintaining our rights, thanks very much - we don't need people supposedly on our side handing the opposition boatloads of ammunition to use against us.

Flyers, t-shirts and websites inform, OC'ing doesn't.
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I don't know that i would go that far, but it us obvious they are immature and not very smart
 
This became clear to me when one poster said that losing OC in California was a loss; he did not recognize that the right to keep and bear arms does not exist in that state.
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It may not have existed as a right guaranteed by the state constitution, but it did exist as a right in the sense that it was perfectly legal until some ill-advised and poorly planned demonstrations generated enough negative public opinion that the government acted and made it illegal.
The corollary to this is exerting social pressure upon anyone who does anything outside of what is considered normal.
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Absolutely missing the point. It's not that they're doing something that is not considered normal, it is that they're doing something that is:

1. Demonstrated to have the opposite result as the one they want.
2. Counter to the general rules of gun safety (as one can plainly see from the pictures.)

If someone told you that they wanted to have a lot of money for retirement and you noticed that they were building up huge amounts of debt, wouldn't you say something to them about it?

If someone told you that they wanted to positively influence another person and you noticed that they were actually negatively influencing that person wouldn't you say something to them about it?

This is about common sense and working towards a common goal. There's a sort of desperate attempt to try to make this about some gun owners trying to infringe on the rights of other gun owners. In reality, this is about all of us trying to cooperate to achieve a goal (the expansion of gun rights) that we all want and avoiding a result (additional anti-gun legislation) that we all consider negative.
One of the "mottos" I encountered in West Texas was "It's not my business"...
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It becomes our business if a highly visible segment of the gun community does things that harm the gun community and threaten the goals we all want to achieve. This isn't about bossing someone around for the fun of it, this is about pointing out an obvious strategy flaw.
I do not necessarily question the rights to do so. But I question the wisdom in the manner some of these demonstration are being conducted.
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EXACTLY. I fully support the rights of these demonstrators to do what they are doing. But I do NOT endorse their actions because I believe that they aren't being smart. I believe they do have and should have the right to do what they are doing but I wish they would be a lot smarter/prudent/careful about how they carry out their plans.
There is no right to feel safe or unoffended, which is the only objection being raised to open carry.
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That is not true. The objection being raised to SOME FORMS of open carry, specifically long gun carry done in such a way as to be unsafe (improper muzzle control) and in such a way as to generate negative public opinion when the goal is to generate POSITIVE public opinion.
If you live in an area where you think the exercise of OC will cost you that right, it is already a priviledge you have lost.
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If you live in a world where you think that strong public opinion can't cost people their rights then you don't live in the real world. Even the U.S. constitution can be amended if enough of the population of the U.S. decides that's what they want.
...the Texas Lege just will not put OC through.
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I hope you are wrong and I believe that you are. I think that there is enough pro-gun support in TX to eventually progress to unpermitted OC in TX. I don't think that we'll get there all in one big step but I think that we will get there over time.

I also think that the counterproductive demonstrations that have taken place in TX recently will slow the progress. I really believe that without them, permitted OC would have been a slam dunk this legislative session and unpermitted OC would have been a possibility. Now, I'm not sure if they will even pass permitted OC as a first step in the progression.
 
I hope you are wrong and I believe that you are. I think that there is enough pro-gun support in TX to eventually progress to unpermitted OC in TX. I don't think that we'll get there all in one big step but I think that we will get there over time.
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Oh, definitely in time it's inevitable And hopefully Florida too, getting the OC back that we lost in 1987.

But in Texas ? I never thought it would take all of my lifetime! ;) As said, you'll get there. My older brother lived in Texas (Corpus) for 27 years. He died in 2010,didn't live to see OC. The old Marine wanted it.
 
You are wrong JohnKSA. There is nothing more to say other than our right to keep and bear arms is being suppressed legally and socially. Original intent no longer matters as far as the courts and society are concerned.
 
tomrkba said:
You are wrong JohnKSA. There is nothing more to say other than our right to keep and bear arms is being suppressed legally and socially. Original intent no longer matters as far as the courts and society are concerned.
__________________
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OH, I think John is spot on and could not be more correct. By your response I have to think that you either didn't read his comments, didn't understand them or maybe even agreed with him, but won't admit it.
 
Our rights have been infringed incrementally over a long period of time and it is incrementally that we will win them back. People have a natural tendency to resist abrupt change. Hence the counterproductivity of "shock" tactics.

Look at it this way - if you're drifting off the highway it's a lot easier to get your truck back on the road by slowing the roll and easing it back over. If you just stamp on the gas and cut the wheel odds are pretty good all you'll do is flip it into the ditch.
 
tomrkba said:
You are wrong JohnKSA. There is nothing more to say other than our right to keep and bear arms is being suppressed legally and socially.
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I tend to agree with JohnSKA. Our right to keep and bear arms is (finally) being discussed and defined by the courts in such a broad number of tests that I don't think has happened before in 200+ years. It's finally out there - in the federal district courts and at the Supreme Court. We might not like all the decisions, but the large majority of legal decisions seem to support the pro-2a position. And those that have not seem to be setting the stage for additional rulings from the Supremes. We shall see over the next months and years.

That's the legal part (and the ongoing challenge. As far as socially, yes, we all have civic obligations. Left wingers screaming and disrupting the flow of traffic etc - whatever the cause of the week may be - does not engender a whole lot of sympathy for their cause. Witness the whole "occupy" movement - in most cases an exercise of legal and constitutional rights, but quickly became tiresome, boorish, and inconvenient for most mainstream folks. They wore out their welcome, and likely distracted from their message/mission (whatever the heck it was).

Compare that to the actions of aggressive open carry protesters. How quickly did showing up at Starbucks or wherever become tiresome, boorish and inconvenient? And how quickly did they distract from their intended message, and fuel the opposition?

You want an alternative hardball protest tactic? Get crime victims to stand out with signs saying "I could have protected myself from _____ if you let me have my right to carry." "I could have saved _____, if you let me have my right to carry."

That would be both informative and poignant. Much more so, IMHO, that some odd looking folks carrying their tactical finery in the local eatery. That is taking on the MDA moms with their own tactics.

That's essentially what we need - MDR (Moms Demand Rights).

And not SMAB (social misfits acting badly).

tomrkba said:
Original intent no longer matters as far as the courts and society are concerned.
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The majority of justices on the supreme court would disagree with you (Scalia and Thomas, particularly). Besides, "original intent" is not the only judicial theory out there (original meaning, legal realism, purposivist construction, etc ...)
 
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The Constitutional rights of my private property morally trump your rights to exercise the others while on it. You have no RIGHT to walk into my business carrying anything without my permission. If you demand your "right" to carry your rifle into my restaurant, you are opposing my property rights.

The 2nd Amendment doesn't inlcude a long list of regulations because the founding fathers assumed we'd all use our God given sense and exercise responsibility.

I'm thinking of all those political issues that I was really indifferent to before protestors purposely offended me by shoving it in my face. One example is my indifference to the gay lifestyles until protestors decided they needed make out on a table in a restaurant where I had my young child. I'm an avid ATV rider, but when some jerk is racing up and down the road in front of my house on his, with a straight pipe, I'm calling the cops.

When I was kid growing up, with a rifle or shotgun contantly in my hands, you simply did not carry a loaded gun into the house. Its not only poor manners, but it is unsafe. A pistol might be tolerated if it was secured in a holster, and you didn't have your hands on it.

When I walk into a crowded gunshow, I thank God that they check all weapons at the door, beacuse when there are that many people, you can bet few of them are idiots.

We've all got the friend we hunted with, once, and will never hunt with them again.

I'm as pro gun as it gets, and support both open and concealed carry, but if people don't have more sense than to walk into my coffee shop with a rifle on a sling, or a pistol in their hands, I'd toss them out, and post a sign.

The purpose of promoting guns in a positive manner, is to win over more supporters, from the largest group who are the indifferent people in the middle. If your methods are turning away a large portion of the pro gun crowd, I doubt you're winning any supporters from the middle. If you annoting them, and making them angry has improved our image, and our standing against the antis, you probably think that the Ferguson protests calling for dead cops improved the image of thugs to law enforcment.
 
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No, it is not positive. There are numerous different reasons for this. Irrespective of the very adverse political/PR consequences, the one that is most significant to me is that it is virtually impossible to do so without violating the rules of gun safety. It is VERY difficult in a crowded urban/suburban environment to not sweep/muzzle someone with a long arm. Virtually impossible. Therefore, wholly apart from frightening moderates/fence-sitters into anti-gun positions (or store policies), it is irresponsible firearm ownership.

The case for gun freedom hinges, in many ways, upon the fact that the huge majority of gun owners are responsible and never cause a single problem to others. OC of long guns in crowded areas is the OPPOSITE of this. Totally unacceptable.
 
There is nothing more to say other than our right to keep and bear arms is being suppressed legally and socially.
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Our right to keep and bear arms is relative to the government. There is no constitutional restraint - NONE - on a private property owner forbidding guns. Nor is there any such restraint on the approbation and criticism of fellow citizens. One of the first things that students learn in a constitutional law class is that the BoR only limits GOVERNMENT action. If you wish to complain about something being "unconstitutional," the very first thing you have to show a court is STATE ACTION.
 
The Constitutional rights of my private property morally trump your rights to exercise the others while on it. You have no RIGHT to walk into my business carrying anything without my permission. If you demand your "right" to carry your rifle into my restaurant, you are opposing my property rights.

The 2nd Amendment doesn't inlcude a long list of regulations because the founding fathers assumed we'd all use our God given sense and exercise responsibility.

I'm thinking of all those political issues that I was really indifferent to before protestors purposely offended me by shoving it in my face. One example is my indifference to the gay lifestyles until protestors decided they needed make out on a table in a restaurant where I had my young child. I'm an avid ATV rider, but when some jerk is racing up and down the road in front of my house on his, with a straight pipe, I'm calling the cops.

When I was kid growing up, with a rifle or shotgun contantly in my hands, you simply did not carry a loaded gun into the house. Its not only poor manners, but it is unsafe. A pistol might be tolerated if it was secured in a holster, and you didn't have your hands on it.

When I walk into a crowded gunshow, I thank God that they check all weapons at the door, beacuse when there are that many people, you can bet few of them are idiots.

We've all got the we hunted with, once, and will never hunt with them again.

I'm as pro gun as it gets, and support both open and concealed carry, but if people don't have more sense than to walk into my coffee shop with a rifle on a sling, or a pistol in their hands, I'd toss them out, and post a sign.

The purpose of promoting guns in a positive manner, is to win over more supporters, from the largest group who are the indifferent people in the middle. If your methods are turning away a large portion of the pro gun crowd, I doubt you're winning any supporters from the middle. If you annoting them, and making them angry has improved our image, and our standing against the antis, you probably think that the Ferguson protests calling for dead cops improved the image of thugs to law enforcment.
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Well said...................
 
Seven pages of people answering questions that weren't asked.

This was the original question:
Does open carrying long guns really help persuade public opinions in a good way?

Unless you've been living on another planet without internet access, I don't know how anyone could answer in the affirmative.

Y'all can debate 'til the cows come home whether open carry of long guns is or should be legal, but if you think it's helping our cause, I think you may need to get out more ...

Attention-seeking assclowns just got our state legislature to ban ALL open carry of firearms, handguns or longguns, in the state House and Senate chambers -- a right we've had since statehood. Plus, so much negative publicity was garnered as a result of the last rally at the Capitol (in the capital), that it got the antis even more stirred up -- not to mention the silly photos that surely got the attention of the fence-sitters and the general public. Why the bleep would you wear a gas-mask into the capitol galleries while carrying an AK?
 
To be honest, I think the OCT copycats are going to keep on until someone introduces a bill banning OC of long guns. After Starbucks, Target, Sonic's, Chipotle, and probably a few more, I think its pretty obvious that the OC of long guns in metro areas isn't doing the pro-gun side any favors.
 
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To answer the original question, NO it does just the opposite.

Do not think for a minute that these people are helping our side. Stunts, like people walking in to a restaurant, or around in public, carrying AR's and AK's, will provoke the antis, and the uninformed, to take action. Remember, laws can be, and have been, changed because of stunts just like this. A few years ago, here in Maine, a well intentioned college student organized a right to carry rally in Portland Maine. Because the young man was a friend of my daughters, I went to show my support. Unfortunately, it was about what I expected. There were guys in shirts and ties with a handgun in their waist band. There were guys in casual attire, myself included, with guns in their waist bands, and of course, there were the guys who got all the attention. These were the guys wearing camouflage and toting AR's and AK's. Some guy was also flying the rebel flag from the back of his pick-up. These were the guys the media focused on. Immediately after this rally, some legislator tried to get open carry banned in the city of Portland. Fortunately our states constitution does not allow for this. It doesn't mean it can't happen somewhere else, like California.
 
This was the original question:
Does open carrying long guns really help persuade public opinions in a good way?

Unless you've been living on another planet without internet access, I don't know how anyone could answer in the affirmative.

Y'all can debate 'til the cows come home whether open carry of long guns is or should be legal, but if you think it's helping our cause, I think you may need to get out more ...
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I think there are several things going on here. A matter of constitutional rights and public opinion.

The people that OC long arms are not looking for public support. If they are it isn't apparent to me. I think they may be demanding a right in spite of public opinion. I continue to hear "it's my right because the 2nd amendment says it is". Public opinion and constitutional rights often times are not in agreement. As was stated, public opinion actually carries more weight in our system of gov't than our constitution. If it didn't the constitution wouldn't have been amended 17 times. When it comes to OC, that right has been granted and taken away many times by state legislative action in spite of what many believe to be a basic 2A right. So I guess you could say it depends on public support which way the wind blows in your part of the country regarding OC. The precedent has been set by the SC. This isn't going to change anytime soon so the only avenue left is public opinion. The NRA knows this and has tried to change it's image with the public. It really is the only game in town. The long arm OCer's just haven't figured out this yet, but they will in time.
 
^^^ I think both things might be happening in these OC demos, at the same time. Some folks are just asserting what they believe to be their rights, just to make the point that they can do it. Other folks are trying to somehow sway public opinion, or make a convoluted point, about OC or concealed carry.

What gets lost in a lot of this discussion is that no right is completely unlimited. Let's consider some relatively non-controversial "extremes":

- You have the right to free speech, except when it comes to slandering, libeling perjuring, or revealing classified info.
- You have the right to practice whatever religion you want, except for human sacrifice or when something like that gets involved
- You have the right not be subject to unreasonable search and seizure, except if you have been lawfully arrested and the police search you and the area immediately around you.

So, rights are not purely unlimited, and can, and are, very commonly circumscribe.

So, my concern is that these type of OC demonstrations could result in additional "exceptions" to the overall right to keep and bear arms - the could end up further restricting rights, in the midst of a battle (in the courts, legislatures and public opinion) that overall has been looking rather favorable to 2A and individual RKBA.
 
The position of Open Carry Texas has been mischaracterized again in this thread.

I will point out again, OCT's stance on long arms in private businesses.
Come and Take It Texas, Texas Carry, Gun Rights Across America and Open Carry Texas Joint Statement on OC of Long Arms
1) Always notify local law enforcement prior to the walk, especially the day of
2) Carry Flags and signs during your walk to increase awareness
3) Carry the long gun on a sling, not held
4) Do not go into corporate businesses without prior permission, preferably not at all
5) If asked to leave, do so quietly and do not make it a problem
6) Do not post pics publicly if you do get permission and are able to OC in a cooperate business
7) Do not go into businesses with TABC signs posted with a long gun (Ever)
8) If at all possible, keep to local small businesses that are 2A friendly
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Many (most?) who name-drop OCT are not OCT.

Mike
 
steve4102 said:
Check this Open Carry Texas photo out. Note, the first firearm directly behind this "gentleman". The safety is set on "FIRE".
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Since it's an AR-15, that could very well mean that he's carrying it hammer down on an empty chamber, in which case the fire selector can not be moved from the fire position.
 
Bloomberg is using public opinion at the state level to knock us out. This is
what they hope the least of us will do to give them the poster children of the
Gun goon squad. Just because you have a right to do something doesnt mean
You can stop thinking about the effects of exercising that right. Most in my family would become ANTIGUN fast if folks like that started showing up in FF
restaurants while they were their with the grandchildren.
It took me 42 years in the gun culture to get concealed carry, nothing will slow our progress faster then Neaderthals on parade.
 
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Arizona_Mike said:
The position of Open Carry Texas has been mischaracterized again in this thread.

I will point out again, OCT's stance on long arms in private businesses.

Many (most?) who name-drop OCT are not OCT.

Mike
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I am assuming this post was aimed at me...

I know this, and thank you for the reminder. My previous post has been corrected...
 
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