1,000 yard rifle?

[Maverick223]

Just out of curiosity, what effect does barrel length have on velocity? Is there a point of diminishing returns? Any point in a 48" barrel?

Or does the length not have as much impact on the accuracy as the tolerances it was machined to?

The velocity increases as an inverse square, in other words there is diminishing returns (IMO about 24in. is about as long as is practical for a .308Win.). That said any modern high velocity bottlenecked centerfire cartridge can effectively make use of a barrel greater in length than you can fit in your truck, but that isn't exactly practical. A 28in. bbl is about the maximum length that is practical for any rifle save for super-magnums (.50BMG, et al).

Lengths effect on accuracy is absolutely negligible when compared to the quality of the barrel. The added velocity will more than negate any deleterious effects because it helps the bullet shoot a bit flatter and more importantly allows it to buck the wind better.

And the military snipers have gone through a logical and necessary evolution too and .308 is no longer the preferred choice for the new scenarios (ie: afganistan).

I despise the .308Win. (poor excuse for a .30-06Spd IMO), but magnums and cartridges using a necked down .308 only make the need for greater bbl length worse.

 

[1stmarine]

MArk-Smith,
The speed difference is minimal with average loads (versatility). You cannot measure it. Nobody can. I would be more worry about choosing a good bullet with a very good Ballistic Coeficient. Even the advertised BC by the manufacturer is sometimes wrong so you have to find out the BC by yourself. Some of the high-end bullets have more accurate BCs. People end up anyway swagging their bullets or have a custom shop do it for them for competition for examples. I would not worry too much about this right now.

Read this article... http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/

Again think "Accuracy and versatility" otherwise you will be looking at the extremes and then specialized systems.

As I told you those tac systems are affordable, versatile and extremely accurate out of the box. That's why they are so popular, not just for target but many folks hunt with them.

 

[Maverick223]

Which things have the biggest effect on accuracy in order of diminishing returns? (the shooter obviously being at the top, but aside from that)?

I'd rank your equipment list in the importance of ammo quality, barrel, optics, trigger, stock, action, followed by everything else (accessories).

 

[Mark-Smith]

Read this article... http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/

Interesting stuff!

 

[Mark-Smith]

I'd rank your equipment list in the importance of ammo quality, barrel, optics, action, followed by everything else (accessories).

Will handloading still yield more accurate ammo than commercially available match-grade ammo?

 

[1stmarine]

I will never disagree with quality.

Those out of the box Tac systems can also be enhanced when you are done with the factory barrel. There are a thousand good choices for bolt and AR rifles with great barrels like Krieger, Lothar, Shilen, etc...

As I said, all things being equal 20" is plenty, and more times than not, more accurate than a longer barrel of a longer length. This also doesn't mean that the longer barrel cannot be more accurate and better for the 1000 yards but might require more work than the 20" (versatility). Once you hit a node with the longer barrel I would agree that the extra speed is a plus but marginal in .308 win average loads and then again if you put an manufacturer hunting round there next day the chance is that the "20 barrel more often than not, will shoot tighter than the longer barrel. "Again. all other things being equal".
I also found there is no need for harmonic tuners in these barrels since they work very well (versatility) with many loads.

This is my ballistic chart with the military 175gr SMK. off the Savage 10FP L1 20" Barrel.

Range Velocity Energy Drop
0 2700 2833 0
100 2518 2464 2.74
200 2348 2142 10.99
300 2185 1855 25.58
400 2028 1598 47.49
500 1878 1371 77.89
600 1736 1171 118.18
700 1603 999 170.02
800 1480 851 235.38
900 1367 726 316.59
1000 1269 626 416.3

This bullet is still supersonic at 1000 and with an easy correction from my reticle and scope I can hit the target with 08"-13" groups and sometimes better.
The drift is about 46-47 with a 5mph 90degree win.

Remember this is an out the box system with very few changes.
Since I am a veteran trained as a navy infantry marksman and sniper this also counts of course but anyone can do it with training, patience and discipline.

Anyway my main focus is long range hunting so I don't have any dedicated 1000 yarder target rifle and loads and after I get a good sub-moa accuracy I lean more towards lethality vs. closing more the groups, specially with big game.

I design all my loads in all my calibers to kill game not to punch paper. Other might have better suggestions to dedicate a system for long range paper.

I initially suggested the tac systems for the desires of the post owner and the reasons I mentioned before.

Cheers,
E.

 

[1stmarine]

Will handloading still yield more accurate ammo than commercially available match-grade ammo?

Initially yes. It really depends on how well you reload or how good the ammo you are buying is. You should expect better results with the reloads overtime as you learn and you can customize the load to what your rifle "likes".

Some people start to reload to save some bucks and they really get deep into it because it is a lot of fun. Specially those long winter nights where you can reload your best loads and dream about a nice spring target practice and the next long range hunt in Montana.

Good factory ammo is expensive. Good loads are cheaper but still expensive, specially good bullets but the .308 win is probably one the most affordable ones compare to others.

I have great loads where I use military Lake City brass that I saved and it works great.
The best brass is Lapua but you have to pay for it.

Cheers.
E.

 

[1stmarine]

I forgot the chart that I gave you is from a warm day with 68 degree weather, humidity 55% and 200ft above sea level at the range. I am going to look in my folders to see if I can find the target from that day.
Another problem will be to get my phone to take a picture and upload. LOL! I will try.

 

[Maverick223]

Will handloading still yield more accurate ammo than commercially available match-grade ammo?

Absolutely, it takes a bit of time and development but you can typically beat the best match ammo by a fair margin, and do so at much less cost.

 

[USSR]

Which things have the biggest effect on accuracy in order of diminishing returns? (the shooter obviously being at the top, but aside from that)?

IMHO, the barrel itself is at the top of the heap. There is a reason why the top shooters use barrels made by a select few barrelmakers. Second, is the bullet and particular load used. Third, is the smithing work done by the gunsmith, which includes the chambering, truing, muzzle crowning, and bedding work. Barrel length is determined by such things as aesthetics, ease of use, or to make a particular weight or increase velocity or sighting plane length in certain shooting sports. Nobody I know says "I'll lop an inch or two off my barrel to make it more accurate". Although, it just may happen due to them getting a better crown on the shortened barrel.

Don

 

[Mark-Smith]

IMHO, the barrel itself is at the top of the heap. There is a reason why the top shooters use barrels made by a select few barrelmakers. Second, is the bullet and particular load used. Third, is the smithing work done by the gunsmith, which includes the chambering, truing, muzzle crowning, and bedding work. Barrel length is determined by such things as aesthetics, ease of use, or to make a particular weight or increase velocity or sighting plane length in certain shooting sports. Nobody I know says "I'll lop an inch or two off my barrel to make it more accurate". Although, it just may happen due to them getting a better crown on the shortened barrel.

What can be done to increase the accuracy of a Savage or Tikka rifle out of the box? New stock?

 

[1stmarine]

I will tell you a few things that you need, including gear.
Initially to help decide just shoot the rifle, not once but a few sessions as you have to brake in anyway.

- Good scope. You might spend as much in a good scope or more as you spent in one of these rifles. It is paramount.
- Stock with a good bedding work. This is a given at some point, normally earlier than later with the baseline rifles. I suggest you stick to the Savage or Rem 700 for this.
- Tune the Trigger. The factory triggers have come a long way and are adjustable. Play with it and see what you get.
- I consider a good brake. It will help you in 2 ways. A) will stop recoil, climb and will will give you confidence to stop twitching. B) When hunting follow up shots must be quick and precise. Be careful here, choose a brake wisely.
- Get a good bi pod for the field or whatever other support you might choose if you shoot at a range.

At this point test and evaluate if you need to continue for your purpose.

- New trigger.
- Harmonics Tuner although I do not find this necessary for a versatile rifles as these. There are many nodes found on this rifles with many custom and factory loads.
- True up the receiver and action by a competent gunsmith. (expensive)
- At some point replace with a superior match barrel. You can use the factory barrel all the way or just save it for later. Make sure is match chamber, head spaced tight and everything properly and securely installed. Have a good gunsmith take care of it.
- If you go out in the field you will need a good reliable range finder. This one will give you all the variables you need to calculate your trajectory.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1686549
It is not 100% perfect but it is pretty good w/o getting into the military multi dollar systems. Don't spend your money in 'el cheapo' brands at Gander. They are worthless.

- At some point I suggest a PDA and good ballistic software unless you shoot in mid range and similar conditions always. At long range and changing conditions you will appreciate this. I put all my loads in my pda and then have all mapped out in a database along with speed spreads and ballistics charts, results, etc...

You do not need to do all this to get started.

Cheers,
E.

 

[Float Pilot]

Generally speaking, there is a 25 feet per second gain for every inch of barrel length between an 18 inch barrel to a 26 inch barrel.
After that point the gain per inch is less on most standard cartridges. Depending of course on the powder capacity and burn rate of the powder. Barrels from 12 inch to 18 inch show quite a variation in gain rates depending on the cartridge and powder.

Here is an example using an average from two of each type of Swedish Mauser.
All have a fast 1 in 7.8 inch twist.
The m/96 has a 29.1 inch barrel
The m/38 has a 23.5 inch barrel
The m/94 has a 17.1 inch barrel

6.5x55mm
140gr Sierra HPBT
46.3gr RL-22
CCI-200
WW Brass
3.055 col, no crimp
2,729 fps m/96
2,622 fps m/38
2,342 fps m/94
0.68 in grp m/96
1.19 in grp m/38
3.20 in grp m/94
no pressure signs
Clean brass
Aug 30, 2009. temp 65’F


I have been hand-loading and testing since Nixon was the president. I agrre with USSR that the barrel is right up at the of of the pile. Along with a good bedding and good crown, and tight chamber.

I spend three decades on active and reserve military duty involved in weapons with an overlapping 20 years as a Law Dawg doing the same thing.
For police work we never really trained for much past 300 yards and usually worried more about 100 yards or even less. The ambulance-chasing, criminal loving, America hating lawyers/politicians made sure we spend more time worried about law suits than anything else. Short barrel worked just fine for that. They are easy to carry through a building and take up less room inside your car trunk.
My military personal use experience with long range shooting is pretty much limited to M-21s (22 inch barrel) for the last few years they were used and then the M-24s (24 inch barrel) and M82 Barrett (29 inch bbl). Although during a joint training exercise some Marines let us shoot their M-40A3s (24 inch bbl) Those were some nice rifles. 800 meters was about the max distance that I was capable of feeling confident using 7.62x51mm chamberings. Back when my eyes and body were sharp in the 1970s, nobody shot past that range. Towards the end of that career, a couple years ago, my eyes and pulse rate let me down on the long shots.

Back around 1972 I built my first target / hunting rifle using a DWM M-98 action and a 20 inch #5 taper Douglas barrel. In 7x57mm. 20 inch barrels were all the rage that year because the bench rest guys thought they were more accurate ...Plus this rifle is glass bedded into a very solid English Walnut thumbhole stock.
I still have that rifle and after 4,000 rounds it is a little picky about loads. But here is a 100 yard group from the last couple of years.

But just when you start thinking that the short barrel really is the Cat's Pajamas, then I have to look at how my 29 inch barreled CG-63 Swedish Target rifle shoots with iron aperture sights.
Look at this 100 yard group, which beats most scoped rifles.

 

[Skylerbone]

Couldn't even hit the target!

Float Plane, I wish my eyes would fail like yours, fine shooting sir! Thank you for the comparisons as well.

1stMarine, what brand of Harmonics Tuner would you recommend for my M700? I already have a Miculek brake installed but I'd like to know what you think might work well as a combo if it were up to you? Also, are you talking about one of those rubber things or something more professional? I guess I'm not that familiar with them, like the BOSS system?

 

[1stmarine]

Many things can affect the harmonics. Even the weather.

The best harmonics tuners are the best at changing the tune of your barrel and dampening any reflections. It is a matter of acoustics so it depends on the material of the barrel, the diameter and more important the length of the barrel. A tuner will help you more in longer barrels than in a "20 barrel as I described before. I have use them all including, spring, rubber, the boss brake, which by the way works great in many rifles but because of the weight it is not good in light barrels.
So in many rifles I ended up custom designing my own harmonic tuner system and ordering them to spec. I do the same now with all my brakes as I found through extensive research and testing that these also can impact the accuracy of your system in several ways. I have also use with some success shotgun counter weights for tuning like the ones we use for skeet shooting. You can "play" with the weights moving along the brarrel until you find the "sweet" spots in the barrel. The problem is that they are not really designed for this, they are bulky and weird, and it is not clear cut to tune them.But the weight itself with two clamps can be a great stabilizer.

I would say your best bet will be initially the Boss Brake if you have a bull barrel, otherwise it is too much weight for my taste and might do more harm than good. The lighter the barrel, the lighter the brake must be.

As I said I custom order them and I like them flushed with the barrel and if possible short and "hollow" in SS or titanium (very light). I order them custom made sometimes for less cost than an original Vais or Hollands.

If you have a very thin barrel and do not have possibility to put a bull barrel at the moment also consider a composite barrel jacket. The aluminum and other materials are great to dissipate heat as well as dampening unwanted harmonics and some folks report great success without increasing the weight. We assume that you have a good barrel, even if it a light one with more flex otherwise forget it and do not spend the money.

The bedding, the tuner, a good brake is for fine tuning an accurate good rifle but it cannot do miracles. ...with a few exceptions I would say.

Another thing that one might consider is to create a bedding for the scope that is clamped with the bedding. This eliminates some of the impact produced by the scope but I do not recommend since it is too much money an only worthy for extreme long range shooting super magnum calibers.

For small footprint just use the standard tuners that you find at the gun shops, I like the light small ones with one simple screw.

I just found this website that gives some ideas on how to calculate and change the tune of your barrel...
http://www.varmintal.com/amode.htm

Cheers,
E.

 

[Zak Smith]

If we are talking about rifles that are 1/2 MOA or better, and we are interested in their effective accuracy at long distance (600+ yards), minute changes in mechanical accuracy due to small increases in stiffness are moot. By all means for benchrest competition this is relevant.

There are various arguments on the internet that short barrels are just as good; however, these are faulty with respect to long-range shooting for several reasons, the primary two being using relatively underpowered ammunition for the test (ie a good long-range load would be hotter and take more advantage of a longer barrel) and they make arguments about the LEO use of the rifle, which is short range, not long range shooting.

 

[Zak Smith]

PDA unnecessary. It's another gadget to waste time with in the field. Having either a PDA or a computer program, or a free web site, to generate data is useful, however, you need to be squared away with known good data before you head out to shoot for real/score/money/glory.

The speed difference is minimal with average loads (versatility). You cannot measure it. Nobody can.

You absolutely can calculate or measure the difference in downrange trajectory with a 100 fps difference.

 

[Zak Smith]

I also don't believe in tuners. They are a crutch to fix a rifle that has other fundamental problems. I have a 26" medium Palma barrel on my .260, and a 26" heavy Palma barrel on my 7RM. These are relatively thin compared to many heavy barrels. They shoot great with the same loads with no muzzle device, a muzzle brake, or a 15-22 oz suppressor hanging on the end. Of course the rifles are AI and the barrels were cut from top shelf blanks (Rock, Broughton), and were then chambered by an expert. I have found that rifles built with comparable quality and skill are very tolerant of different loads.

 

[1stmarine]

however, these are faulty with respect to long-range shooting for several reasons, the primary two being using relatively underpowered ammunition for the test (ie a good long-range load would be hotter and take more advantage of a longer barrel) and they make arguments about the LEO use of the rifle, which is short range, not long range shooting.

I have used some of my best 'hot' loads with great success with 20". the slower burning powders should be avoided. The LEO Average engagement range is 100yrds or less.
This doesn't mean that a tac rifle cannot be use for long range target not as a primary objective.
If that was the objective I would not suggest a Tac rifle but the case of the post owner seems to be different.

Cheers,
E.

 

[Zak Smith]

I am saying that using that "short barrels are awesome" article to support the use of short barrels for actual long range shooting is faulty reasoning.

By all means you can use good LR loads in shorter barrels, and if I were to use a 20" or shorter barrel for LR shooting for some reason, I would use my same LR match load developed for 23-26" barrels (155 Lapua at 2930 fps from 24"). It will be the best across the board. There is no reason to avoid slower-burning powders in shorter barrels other than the desire to reduce flash or blast; they will still provide the best ballistic performance even in a short barrel.

And of course a talented shooter can do amazing things with "not the best" loads and "not the best rifle" or "not the best barrel length", but the question is what could he do wit a setup optimized for long range shooting. A friend of mine who is a very talented professional shooter won high .308 at the Steel Safari in 2010, but was 5th overall. If he had shot a proper long-range cartridge in a 24-26" barreled gun, he probably would have won 1st overall.

 

[1stmarine]

The PDA, notbook, loose paper, laptop, shooting cards, all is good.
You cannot make decisions on what you do not know and the software is as good as any other tool you might have with you. In a range in similar conditions I would say not needed but in the field with elevation, wind, altitude, weather, shooting downhill or uphill it is a great tool.
Nobody should use a hand saw to cut a three if they have a chainsaw.
Tuners can be worthy. You need to understand first if you need them. Many times you don't need them.
Actually I suggest not to touch a baseline rifle until you run with it. There are folks out there that are not in a position to adquire a $7000 dollar target rifle and that might want to work on the possibilities of their baseline, upgrade as you go, tac or hunting rifles.

 

[1stmarine]

I agree. I don't know who said "the short barrels are the greatests" but he or she is wrong. There is no best or worse but the best is what works the best for you.
Since the post owner suggested that the primary objective would not be to do 1000 I suggested the tac since they are pretty versatile and come to a great price point for starters.

Cheers,
E.

 

[Steel Talon]

How well do you shoot out to 500yards? If your not anygood at that distance then you will suck at 1000yards.

 

[Skylerbone]

1stMarine, how do I attach the BOSS to my Miculek break?

 

[1stmarine]

1stMarine, how do I attach the BOSS to my Miculek break?

Skylerbone,
You can't. The Boss is a muzzle brake with an integrated tuner. It has a dial and you can tune the barrel, right down the settings for your load as you find your sweet spots and combine with a your scope regarding the external ballistics. The dial allows you quickly to come back to the ideal tune for that load.
Before you jump into a tuner make sure you need it and it is the right thing for your system. This is intended for fine tuning so don't think that it is going to resolve accuracy if you have other factors interfering. I will not install it in a light hunting barrel since it is heavy material and then fine tuning becomes more like a more coarse tuning and sometimes a trouble amplifier.
Also didn't have great experiences with the Miculek. It is not the optimal design as it is heavy and the bullet passes through several narrow holes before exists.
The bullets leaves the barrel way before any gases start to work in the brake but what happens is that the type of flat wave generated by a supersonic object when colliding with close objects creates a reflection that might impact accuracy. This is why I use custom brakes but this is a different subject.
Before you jump into the tuner consider if you need a bedding work, trigger or even a new quality barrel. Free float with a good bedding and trigger is paramount and anything you try w/o these basic components I consider in my opinion not productive efforts. Also you must have a quality scope and make sure it is working ok before you touch the rifle. It is not usual with top manufactures but sometimes a lemon shows up.
Cheers,
E.