10 guns gunshop employees are uncomfortable selling

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10. alot of taurus semis (the 22 and 25 autos and the 92 copies)
I'm surprised that one was on your list Brian. I agree with the 22s and 25s , but the taurus 92/99 guns are often said to be the best guns made by Taurus. Even among the older taurus days when problems were more common, the beretta copies were known to generally be the exception to the rule.
 
alot of taurus semis (the 22 and 25 autos and the 92 copies)

I believe you are extrapolating wildly from your posible bad experience about the PT92. I've had three and all shoot every bet has good as my Made In Italy Beretta 92 and have been problem free thru a lot more rounds (traded one to get the traditional mag release that come on the "newer" model and added one in stainless when the three-way safety came out).

I've no experience with the Taurus "clones" of the Beretta 21, doubt they could be much less reliable than is my Beretta 21. The difficulty of making .22lr reliable is such small guns is why JMB invented the .25ACP.

--wally.
 
i had 2, one new one used, the accuracy was ok, not as good at my beretta, both guns rattled more than i would like, the main problem was the jamming, every type of ammo, we destroyed one, and i sold one... i sent the new one back 2 times still nothing, and i polished parts, replaced mags, every thing, but i still had 5+ jams (had 3 on one) per mag... i learned and now i stick to better quality guns
 
Taurus PT 92/99

I have already mentioned I had one I liked; they were going for about $279 then (late 90's) very accurate, and reliable; had plans to build ultimate "House gun" with light rail and 20 rd mag, but something came along I wanted more so it became trading fodder. Used to think of it as "my Brazilian mistress" (Cheaper than the Italian one)...At the price I tended to tolerate her vices...(only one I could really find was her reputation; Cheaper than...)
Cheers, TF

I think you need to post those pix of boxes of guns on the "Guns the antis hate" thread too...
 
I don't get the point fo this thread. Is this forum called "The High Road" or is it the "High Brow-my-sh*t-don't-stink-snobist-everyone-s*cks-if- they're- not- like- me" Forum?
 
I don't get the point fo this thread. Is this forum called "The High Road" or is it the "High Brow-my-sh*t-don't-stink-snobist-everyone-s*cks-if- they're- not- like- me" Forum?

If this thread seemed to be purely gun snobbery, then maybe I might agree with you. Unfortunately though, I don't believe that this is the case and I think you've missed the point. The initial poster breaches the topic of the moral responsibility of gun sellers to provide a product which is safe. And in the case of a gun intended for defense, a factor of reliability. All gun snobbery aside, it is foolish to believe that all firearms are made equal and it's merely a matter of personal preference. This thread may have quickly gone off track a bit, that's true. While admittedly the topic could have been put far more eloquently and clearly, the original posters intent is entirely valid.
 
I don't get the point fo this thread. Is this forum called "The High Road" or is it the "High Brow-my-sh*t-don't-stink-snobist-everyone-s*cks-if- they're- not- like- me" Forum?

whoa dude, you can buy poor people guns if you want. :D
 
Bought a Hi Point 9mm Carbine a couple of days ago. Runs like a clock. Zero issues running hundreds of rounds of cheapest possible ammo through it.

Don't you think 2 days is a bit short of a time to give it a glowing review? Get back to us in a year or so, after you've got at least 5000 rounds through it.

More accurate than a Mini-14 (certainly mine anyway).

And that's special how? Every long gun I currently own (including the milsurps) is more accurate than the two mini's I owned.

Lifetime factory warranty if anything goes wrong.

Try using that warranty after the gun fails when you're using it to defend your life

9mm through a carbine is much more powerful than nearly every non-magnum hand gun round out there.

:scrutiny: Congratulations! You've won the award for the most absurd and patently false statement of the day!
 
whoa dude, you can buy poor people guns if you want

Purely asinine.

With McCarthy and her ilk churning up bills in Congress we are in for some real trouble ahead. As gun owners, instead of creating factions, we need to stick together to ward off these assaults on the 2nd Amendment. When all is said and done we are going to lose, and it's going to happen because a small percentage of elitist snobs are willing to throw other gun owners under the bus. History repeats itself. And that elitist group won't care, after all, gun legislation shouldn't touch them, they own the best of the best.

it is foolish to believe that all firearms are made equal and it's merely a matter of personal preference.

This statement is clearly true, but so is this one. It is foolish to think that only a select group of manufacturers make all the guns that are worth owning. I'm sure that S&W would love to have you believe this, but it is not true. And with improvements in technology one can expect that there will be a whole lot more inexpensive guns produced that will go bang every time when needed, and which meet their owner's need quite nicely.
In my experience, most of the people who deride budget-priced domestic and imported foriegn firearms have never actually fired any of them. Usually they own one or two high priced guns, and based on that alone they place themselves on top of the food chain. If that's not snobbery I don't know what is.

And in my experince with gun counter people, they'll snob all over a High Point or a Jennings, and then sell you a defective Colt just to get it out of the case. The morality qualifier doesn't wash with me.

I'm not saying that you have to buy the Hi Points, the Bersas or the Jimenez guns if you don't want to, only that for those that make that choice the snide implications that these folks are stupid, ignorant, or criminal is totally unwarranted.

Try using that warranty after the gun fails when you're using it to defend your life
More absurdity stated out of ignorance by someone whose greatest risk is probably falling out of his SUV. Come live in the working class a little while buddy.


After I bought my Sig 226, I proceeded to buy every milsurp handgun I could get, then started collecting "Saturday Night Specials", mostly because they are inexpensive and owning them is the best way I could think of to really piss off the anti-gun crowd. The way I see it, a Ring of Fire collection flies in the face of McCarthy and her dogs. And yes, I shoot them.....twice a week. After acquiring 18 assorted specimens from this class, I have found none that deserve all of the bad reputation that they have acquired. Only one, a "gunsmith special" I bought to tinker with, doesn't work well. Some need to be tinkered with, its true, but generally they can be made functional and reliable, and if one has to be armed, they will do. Are they Colts? Hell no! Are they functional and reliable? They can be, with a little effort and savvy.

Now back to my original statement: I don't see the point of this thread except to make one segment of the gun owning community feel superior to the others. We don't need that. The reality is that we need to stick together to fight for our 2nd Amendment rights, and if we don't we will lose them.
 
More absurdity stated out of ignorance by someone whose greatest risk is probably falling out of his SUV. Come live in the working class a little while buddy.

Take your aggression out somewhere else man, sorry I made a little joke and you didn't understand it.
 
Just to chime in here, in the past I have owned several low end handguns and a few more popular brand names. I have owned a Raven which I have fired several hundred rounds though with only one feed problem that happened to be just a slightly bent edge on the magazine. Most likely done by the former owner who could have dropped it bending the edge. I have fired a Hi-Point 9mm owned by a friend and was quite happy with the function and ended up ordering a Hi-Point. Most of the low-end firearms just need a little "tweaking" to correct feed problems. I've never had a jam problem with any of these low-end guns. Now the more well known guns had more problems. I had a Beretta 92 that had a broken release on the magazine which caused it to fall out after the second shot cycled. I had a Winchester M98 lever action that would fail to remove the spent cartridge from the chamber unless the rifle was held with the barrel pointing up. This was a used rifle and therefore no warranty but shortly after it was repaired by a gunsmith the problem returned. I sold it. So you see it's not necessarily a price issue so much as a quality issue. That carries with all manufacturers not just eh low-end guns. Would I buy another Beretta or Winchester? Yes, if finances permitted.
 
Quote:
whoa dude, you can buy poor people guns if you want

Purely asinine.

With McCarthy and her ilk churning up bills in Congress we are in for some real trouble ahead. As gun owners, instead of creating factions, we need to stick together to ward off these assaults on the 2nd Amendment. When all is said and done we are going to lose, and it's going to happen because a small percentage of elitist snobs are willing to throw other gun owners under the bus. History repeats itself. And that elitist group won't care, after all, gun legislation shouldn't touch them, they own the best of the best.

I think it was pretty obvious that he was just pulling your chain. It was a joke.

I also think that most of the members here would love it if you could get a perfectly fine well made reliable Lorcin/Llama/Jennings/Phoenix for a couple hundred dollars. Most of us would be positively thrilled at the idea of getting a well made firearm at Saturday Night Special prices, however all firearms are not created equally. Some firearms just have a greater reputation for failure. Now I am sure that there are many many Jennings owners out there that have not had a single problem with their firearms. Some of those owners might even take their Jennings to the range from time to time and had them work just fine. The bottom line though is that over all Jennings are not as well made as say......Ruger-Glock-S&W-CZ-HK-Colt-Taurus-Sig Sauer-Charter-Rossi-Bersa-EAA-RIA-Heritage-Charles Daly-Magnum Research-Walther-Kimber-STI-Steyr-Para Ordnance-Kahr-FN-Browning-Beretta-Springfield. Now your not going to like this but what it means is not that "Saturday Night Special" handguns don't work, just that they are second rate. Who wants to stake their life on a second rate handgun? You say don't knock these guns because for some thats all that they can afford and I say only a rich man can afford cheap tools. By cheap I refer to quality and not price.

Some firearms remind me of those $80 adult bikes at Wal-mart. I'm sure there are people who have ridden theirs every day for years and never had a problem, I just don't think I'm that lucky.

Are they functional and reliable? They can be, with a little effort and savvy.

Would you sell someone, as their first and possibly only firearm, a gun that is not functional or reliable? that unless you have the know-how to coax to work could cost them their life? Wouldn't it just be easier/safer/better to just sell them a low cost functional firearm?

I will tell you that while I would pick my finely made, and expensive, Heckler Koch P2000SK over a Lorcin any day of the week I also would pick my $300(new) CZ75BD over said HK in a heartbeat if my life were on the line.

/rant

To answer the question, I would feel uncomfortable selling anything without a strong reputation for reliability to any first time gun owner especially those who may not display the inclination/know-how to keep their firearm well maintained. If someone displayed good general knowledge of firearms I would have no problem selling them whatever they wanted at a fair price.
 
is it the "High Brow-my-sh*t-don't-stink-snobist-everyone-s*cks-if- they're- not- like- me" Forum?

No. If this forum went by the above name, there'd be more trashing of relatively (keyword -- relatively) inexpensive pistols like Rugers and new Tauruses as opposed to them being touted as quality firearms. I wouldn't knock someone who got a Lorcin or other pistol like that if that's absolutely all they could afford, but there's little doubt there are better guns to be had at relatively low prices, especially if you open yourself up to buying a used one.

When all is said and done we are going to lose, and it's going to happen because a small percentage of elitist snobs are willing to throw other gun owners under the bus.
I'd like to know how you came to this conclusion based on recommendations not to purchase certain brands of firearms. I might have missed it, but I don't remember anyone advocating they be banned, just that they would shy away from buying them or recommending them to others.

More absurdity stated out of ignorance by someone whose greatest risk is probably falling out of his SUV. Come live in the working class a little while buddy.
mmmk, now who's being the asinine one here?
 
When you talk about lowerpriced handguns you need to remember that they aren't all bad. What I mean is if you get a good one it may function as good as a glock but there seems to be a larger percentage of "lemons".

I remember buying a Davis .380 from a gunshow vendor in the early 90's - I wasn't really into handguns and didn't want to spend a much as the Colt Mustang (my friend was buying) cost. I asked the vendor "why should I buy this Davis from you for your price when I can get them on sale for $80 at the retail store"? His price was higher but he also included extra magazines, a holster and wood grips.

What convinced me to buy from him tho was he said he buys hundreds of Davis' at a time and tests them all - any of the guns that do not function 100% he returns and only sells the ones that past his test.

I belived him and bought one. It is clunky (tiny, hard to use safty lever) and chunky compared to my friends Mustang but it has alwasy functioned 100%.

When my friend picked up his Colt Mustang the rear sight fell off at the shop! He had them send it back and a couple of months later it came back so we went plinking.

My cheap Davis never had a problem and was as accurate as I can be to boot - his expensive Colt never fed a full magazine without jamming and/or locking the slide back when the mag wasn't empty. He was VERY discouraged.

My point is you have to compare a sample of more than one gun to really know the quality - obviously my friend got a lemon and I got a Gem.

After this story got out a few other friends went out and bought a cheap Davis just for the heck of it - from what I heard none of theirs was as accurate or reliable as mine. I haven't shot it in years now but it was a good learning experience.

I did buy a Colt Gov't .380 and it has been a Gem also.
 
my $.02

Gun Tests just reviewed the Hi Point 9mm pistol.
They rated it a Good Buy. Sure, it's cheaply made, and looks like crap, but at least for them, it worked fine. They concluded if you need a pistol and it's all you can afford, it will do the job. Granted, theirs was a sample of 1.

Llama - I only have limited experience with 1 of these, a Max-1 1911 "clone".
I have determined that the only parts that don't interchange with a Colt are the grips, the mag release and the plunger tube. The latter is an improvement as it fastens with screws. It would use a Colt mag release if I enlarge the left-side hole slightly. Other than that I haven't found a part that will not interchange with my Colt Sistema.
I would bet that the steel is not as fine as that on a Colt or Kimber. It doesn't have the same good mechanical feel as a Colt, but that may be because the Colt is very well broken in, and the Llama is new.

So far nothing's broke, but then I haven't fired it yet.
I'm preserving it's collector value :rolleyes:
 
When I took a class about a year and a half ago, one lady had an American Arms .25 cal semi-auto. She'd had it for years, in a box. Got it from her dad or ex-husband, I don't remember which. Pretty. Shiny. Nice chrome job.

During the shooting portion of the class it went bang. Four times in a row. Then - nothing. The RO and instructor couldn't get it to work again. She had to borrow a gun from the instructor to finish with.

Did it work? Yes. At first. But what if she had shot it only four times, decided it worked fine, then put it away? Then two days later had needed it to defend herself?
 
briansp82593 said:
and pretty much any of these...
I agree with you, except for all the Tokarev's in that pic (as Mark said on summitgunbroker.com where the pic's from, most trash but there's some treasure :) )
 
I could sell anything, just gotta let 'em know what the gun is for. For instance, I'd never sell a Jenning's .22 or a HP22 Pheonix Arms as a self defense gun, but they're fun and semi reliable plinkers and outdoor .22s, especially the accurate little Phoenix. Sure, they're cheap, so what if they do SOMETHING decent and are fun. The little Phoenix is simple to fix (a good thing) and has a lifetime warranty (a good thing), and has great customer service (a good thing) and is cheap (a good thing). Add to that 3" 25 yard accuracy from the 3" barrel, 2" from the 5" barrel and you got yourself a fun, cheap pocket plinker. Nope, you ain't got something to bet your life on, but as a tackle box gun or an addition to a survival kit for the outdoors, it'll get the job done.

Hi Points are supposed to be reliable, but I don't like lookin' at ugly guns. LOL! Everyone that actually owns one says it ain't real accurate, but accurate enough and generally 100 percent with ammo it likes. Still can't wipe the ugly off it, though. But, I'd sell it if I didn't have to touch it. :D
 
I'm going to second the HI-Points. Don't know them until you've tried them - especially considering the lifetime guarantee. The Hi-Point carbine is nuts.
 
This statement is clearly true, but so is this one. It is foolish to think that only a select group of manufacturers make all the guns that are worth owning. I'm sure that S&W would love to have you believe this, but it is not true.

Welcome back, Mr. (9 posts) Straw Man. I think you've been here before, under different names. :rolleyes:

Nobody here wants to ban your Hi-Point. The fact that some people do not agree with your choice of self defense arm does not equate to people dissing your right to self defense.

Please make sure you understand the difference. If you cannot, or will not, you are wasting your (and our) time.

I don't get the point fo (sic) this thread. Is this forum called "The High Road" or is it the "High Brow-my-sh*t-don't-stink-snobist-everyone-s*cks-if- they're- not- like- me" Forum?

Not worthy of a response. Go back and read the rules, or go elsewhere. Please.
 
I have to say Hi-Point pistols, while ugly, chunky, top heavy, and not very ergonomical, are quite unexpectedly good shooters; their chunky heavy construction actually makes them fairly strong and durable with a surprisingly light recoil... If you were needing a pistol and didn't have more than a hundred bucks or so, a Hi-Point 9mm would be ideal. I am sure we'll always find somebody to bash any gun, but truthfully, a $99 Hi-Point in your pocket beats a $2500 Kimber in your safe.

"IBTL!"
 
I would consider the shop I worked at extremely ethical. The shop sold Hi-Point carbines. Had very few in any come back. Ugly maybe, but they IMO were reliable and extremely well priced.

IIRC, we steered away from the hadguns.
 
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