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#10 or #11 caps? What's the difference?

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by AbitNutz, Oct 21, 2009.

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  1. AbitNutz

    AbitNutz Member

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    Ok, I have been shooting Remington #11 caps on Treso nipples on my ROA. The Winchesters just didn't work for me. They would typically blow apart and jam up the cylinder to the point I had to remove the cylinder to clear it. I moved to Remington #11's and the problem is solved. I just had someone swear up and down that I should be using #10 Remington caps on Treso nipples. So what the heck is the difference?
     
  2. dispatch55126

    dispatch55126 Member

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    As I understand it, #10 caps are slightly narrower than #11 caps. That said, I've had #10 caps from brand "A" be too narrow and too wide from brand "B". If #11 works, then go for it. If you have to squeeze the skirt to get a tight fit, try the #10's.
     
  3. Fingers McGee

    Fingers McGee Member

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    Remington #11s are shorter than #10s. Diameter is virtually the same.
     
  4. mykeal

    mykeal Member

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    Ok, here's the chart again. We really should put this in the sticky.
    CapSizes.jpg
    By the way, Winchester caps are just rebranded CCI's.

    And you don't get three decimal place precision for 4 cents apiece. What that means is that those dimensions vary from lot to lot as the machines wear and the material properties vary. The CCI No.10's that fit today might not fit next year when you buy another batch; same thing for the other sizes and brands.
     
  5. Hellgate

    Hellgate Member

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    mykeal,
    The RWS #1055 is even smaller and longer. It's the RWS equivalent to a #10. They don't fit anything I own.
     
  6. AbitNutz

    AbitNutz Member

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    I tried looking around to see where I could buy RWS caps. I thought I'd give them a try. They're not generally available and what I did find were expensive. Add in that you have to buy them a 1000 at a time and the hazmat fee...wow.

    I just shipped my ROA off to Lee's Gunsmithing to let Rowdy Yates have his way with it...so I'll guess I'll have some time to cast some bullets up...
     
  7. hildo

    hildo Member

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    Dynamit Nobel RWS 1075, different lots, fits everyhting I have.
    Uberti Walker, Dragoon, 51 Navy and an original R&S with, aftermarket, nipples.
    They are German made, maybe that's why they are more costly in the US.

    CCI 11 needed to be pinched, therefore I quit using CCI.
    Pricing of Dynamit Noble and CCI caps is identical here.

    Hildo
     
  8. BlackNet

    BlackNet Member

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    I was on the phone with CCI ammo today, I was told the reference ID (inside diameter) for the #11 and #11 magnum percussion caps are 0.1683
     
  9. AbitNutz

    AbitNutz Member

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    I had no luck at all with CCI/Winchester. I tried #10's and #11's and neither fit well. Every cylinder full seemed to have some problem that ultimately ended with removing the cylinder and clearing debris. I changed to Remington caps and no issues at all, shot after shot.
     
  10. mykeal

    mykeal Member

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    Which No. 10, CCI or Remington?
     
  11. BlackNet

    BlackNet Member

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    AbitNutz, try anew set of nipples. there seems to be very little standard in nipples. I had a set of tresco's that would not fit #11 that well but did fit #11 mag's, I changed them out and the new set (same make/model) and they fit super well.
     
  12. Sagetown

    Sagetown Member

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    mykeal ~ might I add this visual to go along with your data ~ ~

    [​IMG]
     
  13. BlackNet

    BlackNet Member

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    it is copper and corrugated so size will change with pressure. which means between production, packing, shipping, loading/unloading, fat fingers etc.. that size will vary heavily. It is designed to bend and move after all.

    Ed
     
  14. AbitNutz

    AbitNutz Member

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    Maybe it would be better if we did away with nipples on revolvers entirely. I've seen some cylinders made in Europe that use the 209 shotgun primer.

    I'm not exactly how that works; what you need to seat the primer or how you de-cap it. It does seem to offer better ignition and you never have to worry about incorrect fit, splitting and jamming.
     
  15. mykeal

    mykeal Member

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    I have no difficulty believing that. The inside diameter measurement is very difficult to make reliably; I measured at least 20 samples of each brand and size, and made at least 3 inside diameter measurements on each cap. The numbers were all over the place. What you see in the chart is an arithmetic average. Others have attempted to verify/refute the numbers and report similar difficulties. CCI's four decimal place spec is a bit amusing as it implies 0.00005 tolerance precision, which is clearly silly in a 4 cent part.
     
  16. BlackNet

    BlackNet Member

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    it's not silly when the die used is that :) now what comes out is that size yes but after all the banging around and getting picked up etc.. plus soft metal things get distorted and bent easily.
     
  17. Smokin_Gun

    Smokin_Gun Member

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    There are a few differant length cones ... three not counting thread types short sort, short and long I have run into SS bein' the Santa Barbara, short say Uberti, and long Euroarms/ASP. That cap chart shows the number 10 Rem cap bein' longer they work best on my S.B. Rems ... the Rem 11's work best on most Colts, for me. Now the CCI #11 was a perfect fit on my 1861 Old Army Rem ~ but I have to squeeze a hair CCI#11's on my Piettas.
    Good topic thanks for makin' me think and the Charts... I learned sumfin :O)
     
  18. Hellgate

    Hellgate Member

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    Mykeal,
    The RWS 1055 is the RWS version of a #10 cap and happens to be the smallest cap I've ever bought. It probably is closer to the CCI #10 only because the CCI #10 is the smallest of those available.
    What I like about the Rem#10 is that it is "pre-split" and will bell out to fit a greater variety of nipple cone shapes than the more rigid CCIs and RWS caps. The Rems don't fall off under recoil either. I have replace some of my ASM and Piettas with the Uncle Mike's/Butler creek stainless nipples but my Uberti and Euroarms '58 Remingtons all thake the Rem#10 cap as well as the Uberti Walkers and Dragoon.
     
  19. pohill

    pohill Member

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    From an old Colt Industries pamphlet:
    "Percussion caps are now made in sizes from nine to thirteen. Ten and eleven are the best numbers for the small and medium-sized arms, and twelve for the larger sizes, although, as different-sized nipples are sometimes met in specimens of the same model, no hard and fast rule can be given. It is better to have caps slightly too large than too small, as large caps can be pinched together at the bottom enough so they will stay on the nipples, but small ones must be driven down on the nipple by the blow of the hammer, and this process frequently cushions the blow to the extent of producing a misfire."
     
  20. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    Good idea mykeal.
     
  21. GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL

    GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL Member.

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    Abitnutz, that's what I shoot. Remington #10's and Remington #11's. Never have had a problem. Don't know if any of the others would work or not because I'vd never tried them. I know I'vd shot Remington for many a year. I'll tell you what I have never been able to understand. Like for instance my Manual that came with each of my 2 '47's told me to use #11 caps. I do. They fit perfectly on both Walker's and on the extra cylinders. Right on down the line with each of my guns be it calling for #10's or #11's. Somebody else will buy a '47 and immediatedly jump on here and start screaming about how such and such a cap won't fit. Well anyway, I use Remington #10's and #11's and use one or the other on my guns depending on what the book told me to use and I have never had a problem and I have been shooting for a pretty damn good while....
     
  22. firescout

    firescout Member

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    Remington #10s fit my ROA best, and CCI #10s now fit my Pietta 1851 Navy .36 best. I polished the stock Pietta nipples for a good fit with the CCIs. Out-of-the-box, 11s and Rem 10s were too loose, and CCI #10 were too tight.
     
  23. Smoke&Awe

    Smoke&Awe Member

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    I've only been shooting black powder muzzle-loading rifles (both cap & flint) plus cap & ball pistols & revolvers for 30+ years, but one thing I've learned is that the manufacturing of components vary from decade to decade, year to year and lot to lot. So I'll restrict my comments here to percussion caps purchased in 2009 and cap & ball revolvers manufactured in 2008-2009.

    Historically I've always used Remington #10 percussion caps. Last Spring I was caught up as a victim of percussion cap (and rifle/pistol primer) hording by others, and couldn't shoot for several months. Finally I discovered that one of several local gun stores had Remington #11 percussion caps "hidden in the back of the store". They didn't even have a full carton, only 500 percussion caps, assured me that they would work with ALL my cap & ball revolvers, and discounted them at the carton rate.

    Out at the range, with both my 2008 & 2009 production UBERTIs & PIETTAs, the results were IDENTICAL.

    The first chamber fired and the recoil knocked ALL the 5 remaining percussion caps off their nipples. 1847, 1851, 1858 & 1860 UBERTI/PIETTA revolvers ALL dropped these Remington #11 percussion caps at my feet.

    Then I squeezed the remaining Remington #11 percussion caps between my fingers to make them oval shaped. They THEN stayed on, ruined my fingers and ruined many a day at the club.

    FINALLY, last month, a store OUT-OF-STATE received a shipment of Remington #10 percussion caps, so I wasted several hours and gallons of gasoline so I can shoot every week.

    After 200+ shots using current Remington #10 percussion caps in my 1847, 1851, 1858 & 1860 UBERTI/PIETTA revolvers, no drops, and no misfires.
     
  24. AbitNutz

    AbitNutz Member

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    polished the nipples? How did you do that?
     
  25. River City John

    River City John Member

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    Sagetown,
    would appreciate credit for my photo.
    And you have plagiarized the information incorrectly:
    From l. to r.- Rem.#10, Rem.#11, Dynamit Nobel#1075, CCI#10, CCI#11.

    This illustration first appeared in my article in The Shootist magazine, September/October 2007, p.19.
    I have subsequently posted it on threads in CAS City and The Frontier Spot.


    River City John
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2009
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