#10 or #11 caps? What's the difference?

[Sagetown]

Hello River City John: Sagetown here........ Don't know Sagebrush ? Probably a typo......

Thanks for that great photo, I'll try and change the typo. Don't know where I came across it with the info, but being its your photo you should know how you had them set up.
Sorry about the

you have plagiarized the information incorrectly

,
but typo's are inevitable.

Sagetown (I chose this name from a bygone community on our ranch where the old Butterfield Stage Line came thru. The old well at the Stage Coach Station is still there.)

 

[mykeal]

Plagiarism, as defined in the 1995 Random House Compact Unabridged Dictionary, is the "use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work."

River City John - Since "Sagebrush" (sic) did not claim your work as his own, your accusation of plagiarism is unjustified. I'm sure he will accept your apology, however.

Umm, did your posts on CAS City and The Frontier Spot contain copyright notices? Just curious, not that it matters.

Oh, and welcome to the forum. We look forward to many informative discussions.

 

[poetgrey]

There is a difference, not sure if it really matters. I've learned through trial and error what works for best for a particular pistol. I have a Uberti Remmie which sports after market nipples instead of the originals, another Uberti, an 1860 Army that wears the original nipples and a percussion Kentucky, all of which favor a different brand or size. Actually, the Kentucky will take anything I can cram onto it but the wheel guns are more demanding, especially the Remmie, no matter which nipple is used. I wonder how the old primers used to fit?? Did the old guys have as much trouble with caps as we do? It is the bane of percussion revolvers. I got lots of advice from people...you've got to start somewhere...I became familiar with what is out there...and now I've got some pistols that work...most of the time.

 

[TheRodDoc]

I don't believe they had as much trouble with caps as most do now day. The first thing very different is the guns aren't manufactured well enough now.

Way to much clearance behind the unfired cap and back frame. The cap can just slide off. In most original guns they can't.

To fix this in a new copy you would have to use longer nipples. They should be fitted for rear clearance.
I have an idea that the large clearance in newer guns might be to protect careless users from multiple firing from a nipple being to long or close to the back frame. My colts have only .001 to .002 clearance between the cap and back frame. This is when the cylinder is pushed back tightly.

When they are close like this then it is important when reassembling your gun each time to always check this clearance again. All chambers. It can change with wear or a nipple not seated correctly.

The next problem with new guns is that no one seems to worry about the hole size in the nipple. That is what is important. not so much the outer size of it.

The hole in the nipple has to be sized along with the hammer pressure against the nipple and the pressure in the chamber. If the hole it a little to big of dia. the hammer will blow back when fired. this lets the spent cap open up and back up and fall off. And possibly jamming your gun. If it is sized right there isn't any way for the cap to get off the nipple while firing. The hammer has it trapped there. If it stays sealed on the nipple it also won't open up the fired cap.

So if you are having many fired caps fall off you most likely need different nipples that might need to be longer and or a smaller hole in them.

I have no idea of what is available today. Way back there were many choices for the nipples and cap sizes.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi TheRodDoc,


Good mentions there.


I have a San Marco 3rd Dragoon, which was missing some Nipples, so I got a set of 'TRESCO' Nipples for it, and, they seem good with Remington No. 11 Caps, though some Caps do in fact partially 'open' after firing, if with no jamming incidents so far.


Got a 'Uberti' 1860 Colt Civillian .44, Factory Nipples, lucky me, it loves the Remington No. 11 Caps also, same as the Dragoon, with occasional 'opening' though no fall off and jam issues.


Interesting mention on rear Clearance and Nipple-length/height.

Too bad 'TRESCO' does not offer some length options, or, a simple long version one could file down as one needs for ending up with an optimum length-height/clearence.

 

[pohill]

I don't believe they had as much trouble with caps as most do now day. The first thing very different is the guns aren't manufactured well enough now.

Not so sure about that. Bill Hickok was saved when a cap misfired once (the gun was pointed at his head).
I recently acquired a diary that belonged to a Civil War Veteran. In it (in 1876) he talks about the caps not popping on his hunting shotgun. It was decided that the caps were too small and when he seated them on the nipples, the mercury fulminate was disturbed.
I find that if I pay attention to each shot and where each spent cap goes, I don't have a problem. My 3rd Generation 1861 .36 spits spent caps out like a semi-auto.

 

[mykeal]

Too bad 'TRESCO' does not offer some length options, or, a simple long version one could file down as one needs for ending up with an optimum length-height/clearence.

In fact Treso does offer different length options. The 1/4x28 and 12x28 thread sizes each have 3 different lengths available and the metric M6x0.75 size has two. However, they don't provide the specs on how long they are, they just call them 'rifle', 'pistol' or 'musket' nipples.

And the length differences are much greater than the few thousandths that TheRodDoc is talking about (the following are overall length in inches for the 1/4x28 nipples):
11-50-01: 0.635 long
11-50-11: 0.494 long
11-50-13: 0.538 long

 

[TheRodDoc]

pohill,

I would say if your 1861 is blowing off a lot of spent caps that you might need a new hammer spring or nipples with smaller holes in them or both.

If you have a friend with a same gun, even a copy, that doesn't do that use a pull scale with a wire loop attached to it. hook the loop over the hammer and pull straight back. Check both guns. If your hammer pull is a lot lighter you might need a new spring. If you can compare with more then one gun the better it would be. If the spring is similar then the nipple holes must be to large.

If you are a math wiz you could probably figure out just what size hole the nipple needs and how much pressure the hammer needs to keep the nipple sealed during firing. You would need to roughly know the chamber pressure of a max load.
I Can't. All I know is that the bigger the hole the heaver the hammer needs to be. (stronger spring)

The .044" difference in two of those nipple length would be ok for some guns I have seen.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi mykeal,



Oh!


Good to know...I had no idea.


I will examine my two C&B Revolvers and see how their clearence is, Capped Nipple to Sheild area.

 

[pohill]

I would say if your 1861 is blowing off a lot of spent caps that you might need a new hammer spring or nipples with smaller holes in them or both

Nope. The gun is perfect. Trouble free. Never jams. Never misfires. I wish all my guns were like this one.
People have to understand that problems with caps come with the territory.
That's why I keep posting this:
From an old Colt Industries pamphlet:
"Percussion caps are now made in sizes from nine to thirteen. Ten and eleven are the best numbers for the small and medium-sized arms, and twelve for the larger sizes, although, as different-sized nipples are sometimes met in specimens of the same model, no hard and fast rule can be given. It is better to have caps slightly too large than too small, as large caps can be pinched together at the bottom enough so they will stay on the nipples, but small ones must be driven down on the nipple by the blow of the hammer, and this process frequently cushions the blow to the extent of producing a misfire."

Clarification: my mind is getting ahead of itself due to my 3 cups of perked coffee. When I said the caps were spit out, I meant that as the cylinder rotates, they are spit out from the side as the next nipple lines up. One of these days I'll figure out why - for now, I'm happy with that feature.

 

[TheSquire]

Maybe it would be better if we did away with nipples on revolvers entirely. I've seen some cylinders made in Europe that use the 209 shotgun primer.

I'm not exactly how that works; what you need to seat the primer or how you de-cap it. It does seem to offer better ignition and you never have to worry about incorrect fit, splitting and jamming.

Lots of my shooting mates have these shotgun primer conversions; they are often used on re-proofed pistols that use smokeless powders rather than BP for reliability and less cleaning.
This has been a response to the handgun ban here in the UK that didn't apply to muzzle loading or BP revolvers.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Lots of my shooting mates have these shotgun primer conversions; they are often used on re-proofed pistols that use smokeless powders rather than BP for reliability and less cleaning.
This has been a response to the handgun ban here in the UK that didn't apply to muzzle loading or BP revolvers.

Necro-thread!! An oldy but a goody.

 

[BCRider]

Is anyone going to shoot me if I post the obvious answer?

The difference between #10's and #11's is 1.....

 

[TheSquire]

Sorry (@Cooldill) I only recently found this thread, I hadn't realised how old it was!