$1000 reward to turn in an illegal gunowner

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As in all groups exceptions exist but as an organization the NYPD can make no claims to brave service without acknowledging all the terrible things that have been done by some their officers.
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i take it you didn't see what the NYPD did on 9/11. what did you do?

that's a rather stupid comment.
 
Yes I saw what happened 9/11, no it's not a stupid comment. I never said that brave acts are never performed by members of the NYPD. It is merely my position that said bravery is cancelled out by all the negative acts that they have committed against honest citizens. Don't beat your chest and ask for a medal if you won't take the licking for breaking regulations.

The same basic premise can be applied to the NOPD, the Atlanta PD and others. I don't care how much good a police department accomplishes if their members are also harming society with acts both of commision and omission. Willful wrongdoing can never be excused by a counter balancing amount of good doing. And many officers in many departments are wrongdoers thus painting the good doers with the same dirty brush.
 
so you think all the bad things that a few officers of the NYPD have done in the past negate the bravery displayed by the entire NYPD on 9/11?

please, oh great one, tell us what marvels you have done for mankind. :confused: i will go make a sandwich and get ready for your reply!
 
Argumentum Ad Hominem

Keep it clean, guys.

No hitting below the belt.

It is a fact that NYPD has acted bravely and sacrificed much.

It is also a fact that there has been corruption and misconduct among its members.

These are facts, but they are only related by the fact of common membership.

I will not tar the brave and honorable with the same brush I use to mark the dishonest and abusive.

Let us keep the discussion line to the matter at hand: the dishonest and illegal rules used to disarm the public, the misdirection and slight of hand used to confuse them, and the unavoidable conclusion that lies behind these actions.

Remember: the cop on the beat signed up to help people and to make things better. The politician from whom he takes his orders craves the power, and will order the most absurd and injurious things to that end. Most cops can't bring themselves to acknowledge that the folks they work for are largely -- even fundamentally -- corrupt. Good people have a real problem believing in the stark reality of evil, and will convince themselves that the villains don't really mean harm, they're just "clumsy and stupid."

If I can't enlighten you to that understanding, then so be it.

I'm not going to call you names for that.

I may, however, repeat myself.
 
the dishonest and illegal rules used to disarm the public
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Arfin,

are any of these NYC gun laws being challenged in court currently? i think they have been around for quite awhile in NYC.

...still waiting for thexrayboy's reply!... :D
 
Playing the 911 card is akin to playing the nazi card.

Is the rapist, who happens to save a baby from a burning building as he flees the crime scene, a good guy or a bad guy?

A bad man can do good acts, and vice versa. An employee of an organization, that has a problem with institutional corruption, can likewise do good acts.

I don't know if all the cops who did good things on 911 are truly 'good' people or bad. I do know that the NYPD has some serious, long term, problems with corruptions and infringement on the civil rights of citizens.

So take your 911 card and, umm, go get a coke or something.
 
ArfinGreebly: the beat cop is morally responsible for enforcing illegitimate firearm laws, just as the politician is for passing them. Both are guilty.

The servants of a "fundamentally corrupt system" (your words), when are are actively furthering the cause of corruption, are just as guilty as the masters imho.
 
Absence of Evidence

It is almost an axiom of logic that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

In programming, we rely on this as part of our quality control processes. The fact that you didn't find a bug is not "evidence" that there are no bugs.

The absence of litigation to overturn heinous legislation, the absence of active court cases disputing contra-constitutional legislation, is not evidence that the legislation conforms to the Constitution.

The evidence that said legislation is an abomination is pretty clear, though, requiring only a good grasp of the English language, and a willingness to wade through tomes of disingenuous phrasing to see it.

The lack of test cases is, as much as anything else, a consequence of apathy, fear of reprisal, and lack of means.

If I had the means and knew I could pursue such with impunity, I would certainly undertake it. That I do not is only evidence that I have not the means nor the protected status needed for that undertaking.

The fact that a bully may get away with intimidation and extortion for years is not evidence that this is somehow moral and righteous. It is only evidence that he has not yet encountered someone with the will and the means to successfully resist him.

You may belittle those who declare infringing laws to be abominable and who yet lack the means to do battle in that arena.

If your battle cry is "You can't fight city hall," then at least you will not have to worry about being exposed to the confidences of those who elect to do so.
 
Beat Cop

dave_pro2a,

True enough. You'll forgive me if I indulge in a bit of "benefit of the doubt."

Beat cops, on the whole, start out having bought into the idea of the greater good. They came to help.

The politician, on the other hand, in overwhelming numbers, seeks and craves power.

The fact that, years down the road, the beat cop is no longer pure of heart, is rather not the point. The point is that, while they may be seduced to the dark side, they didn't start there.

The resulting loss of honor may be a real shame, but at least the cop, whose origins were honorable, knows what shame is.
 
This will be my last post in this thread. I really wish I never bothered to read anything in this L&P forum.

The NYPD is probably the largest PD in the USA. NYC is the largest City in America. most people can't even imagine how really vast a city like NY really is. Because there are almost 38,000 Police Officers in the NYPD there is more opportunity for things to go wrong. At times there have been 40,000 Officers on the streets. Most people outside NY only know what they read. The source is a far left leaning media who tell only what they want you to know. You can not condemn an entire police agency for the bad actions of a few. What is reported as misconduct by the Media is often a mistake, not an intentional act. You hear about the "crime" of the PD by the Media before the investigation but they never report the results of that investigation when the Police are exonerated.

Mentioning 9/11 isn't wrong because it happened and the true nature of the brave Officers on the NYPD was shown, along with the Fire Department, Health and Hospital Workers and even the mechanics of the Department of Sanitation who went down there to keep all the equipment running.

For anyone to condemn a good Police Department for a handful of well publicized cases is totally wrong. The Liberal police haters just love to sit on the outside and judge others without first hand knowledge and armed with only one sided information provided by a bias Media.

NEVER judge others especially when you have never walked in their shoes. IMO, some of the things said here are shameful and have no place on a forum like this. You should be ashamed of what has been said here.

Don't bother to aim any answers at me because I won't be back to this thread or this section of the forum again.
 
if someone was arrested for owning a pistol in their own home in Texas (without any other crime withstanding) i don't think it would ever make it to a jury since there is no law violation.
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But if it happened in New York City it'd be all right if I was arrested, since that sort of thing is, basically, strictly forbidden by the law (unless, of course, you have cash and connections), even though for whatever reason I thought it would be best to be armed? :rolleyes: I suppose that's quite easy to say for someone who lives in a relatively free state and doesn't have to worry about that sort of thing, but this attitude that "the law is the law, no matter how unjust, God help you if you don't follow it and that's the way it should be, no questions asked" is really quite disturbing. There but for the grace of God go you, and I too.
 
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Wow, that comes to a stagerring $645 per gun recovered. I wonder if the economics really make sense? Factor in the cost of a police officer per hour, the warrants, etc... I wonder if it tops 1.5k or 2k per gun recovered. They don't mention how many convictions they actually got, that would be very interesting.
 
Well, it's taken about 4 or 5 pages to try to turn this into a cop-bash. I'm impressed with the self-disipline. It usually starts much sooner.:rolleyes: :barf:
 
Discussing The Law

Bashing??

I thought we were discussing the legal foundations of this thing.

Guess I missed something.
 
the pistolero wrote:
But if it happened in New York City it'd be all right if I was arrested, since that sort of thing is, basically, strictly forbidden by the law (unless, of course, you have cash and connections), even though for whatever reason I thought it would be best to be armed?
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that's the issue here. we live in Texas. this law has no bearing here. that is a simple undisputed fact. i can't live my life in Texas thinking, "I shouldn't do this because it is illegal in New York City."

if you don't think NYC laws are legal then do something about it. dont think that giving your $20 a year to the NRA is doing something, because it isn't. if it was, then please cite what the NRA is currently doing about the laws in NYC and provide some sort of evidence to establish that they are challenging the legality of said laws that most everyone on here says is unconstitutional.

that goes for everyone on here that says the NYC gun laws are unconstitutional. what are YOU doing to challenge the legality of NYC gun laws, other than typing about it here? paying your annual NRA dues really doesn't qualify unless you can specifically cite a source stating the NRA is actually actively challenging these laws.

i just checked on google and i found no sign that anyone is challenging these NYC gun laws. just babbling on and on on THR about how they are unconstitutional doesn't equate to squat in real life.

here's some websites i looked at. NONE of them say anything about challenging current NYC gun laws:

New York State Rifle & Pistol Association Political Action Committee

National Rifle Association

id really like to see something, somewhere, that shows that something is actually being done to question the legality of NYC gun laws.

here are some interesting facts from Gun Law News:

The Sullivan Act is a New York state law that requires a permit to carry or own any gun small enough to be concealed. Because the permit is issued by local law enforcement, it provides a great deal of local control on firearm availability.


Passed by the New York Senate May 10, 1911
Passed by the New York Assembly May 15, 1911
Signed into law May 29, 1911
In force as of September 1, 1911
amended in 1931 to require finger prints and photographs
The permit requirement is on a per gun basis. The initial fee of $3.00 per gun meant that poor people were immediately priced out of the legal gun market. Although promising to never raise the fee, it now sits at $55.00 per gun and the city takes up to six months.
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it has been in effect since 1911 (almost 100 years). if it is so blatantly unconstitutional how come it hasn't been repealed yet? oh yes, THR members say it is the corrupt politicians, cops, and judges that prevent any such lobby, including the NRA, from doing anything about it.

don't just sit here on THR and beat your chest. if you believe this law is unconstitutional then do something about it. :confused:

thexrayboy wrote:
As in all groups exceptions exist but as an organization the NYPD can make no claims to brave service without acknowledging all the terrible things that have been done by some their officers.
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dave_pro2A wrote:
Playing the 911 card is akin to playing the nazi card.....So take your 911 card and, umm, go get a coke or something.
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couldn't agree more. i think thexrayboy is really going out on a limb when he is busy talking trash about the NYPD but has yet to address us on what he specifically has done that could be even used in comparison to the acts of bravery the NYPD as a whole did on 9/11. if he is to question the bravery of the NYPD on 9/11, then he obviously must have a great incident of bravery that he did himself. other than typing on THR.
 
that goes for everyone on here that says the NYC gun laws are unconstitutional. what are YOU doing to challenge the legality of NYC gun laws, other than typing about it here? paying your annual NRA dues really doesn't qualify unless you can specifically cite a source stating the NRA is actually actively challenging these laws.
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I genereally stay out of these type of discussions, but Spreadfire, you've hit on something here.

Other that being part of an organization that works to change what we all feel are unconstitutional laws, writing letters to our representatives, and trying to educate others, our legal prospects are limited.

We'd all love for SCOTUS to rule that gun control laws are unconstitutional, after all everyone knows what "infringe" means.

We'd all love our representatives to take their OATH of office seriously, meaning that they would vote against any bill that was unconstitutional. We'd all love it for the president to veto any bill that was unconstitutional.

Back to your point... To challenge the legality, and for any law to be ruled unconstitutional by the courts, first you must have case. To have a case, you have to have standing. To have standing you must own the object that is banned. To own the object that is banned, you must either be a) ignorant of the law - which is generally not defensible or b) in defiance of the law. After all that you have to convince a panel of judges that the law is unconstitutional.

If you are convicted of a felony you will lose your right to vote and lose your right to own a gun.

Most of us here are not willing to do "b" for those reasons and continue go with option "A" which is to try to get the laws changed. In doing so you are engaging in many battles simltaneously. I'll stop there before I start rambling...
 
we live in Texas. this law has no bearing here. that is a simple undisputed fact. i can't live my life in Texas thinking, "I shouldn't do this because it is illegal in New York City."
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*ahem* I don't live here and think "I shouldn't do this because it is illegal in New York City." What I do is simply comment on the blatant violation of human rights that has been foisted on New Yorkers since 1911 (how ironic, eh?) and, of course, think and say, "thank God I don't have to operate under such rules." And as for those otherwise law-abiding subjects-who-choose-to-assert-their-citizenry hauled before a jury whose sole "crime" was the possession of an un-licensed firearm, well, I'd say some good ole jury nullification was in order. You, apparently, think that's wrong. And I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
 
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Wayne Fincher

Kludge: That's exactly why I applaud Wayne Fincher for putting his whole life on the line and doing the work most gunnies won't do.
 
That's exactly why I applaud Wayne Fincher for putting his whole life on the line and doing the work most gunnies won't do.
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Mr. Fincher's case is slightly different. he is accused of building unregistered machine guns and silencers. i don't think he was making them to symbolically protest any gun law. i think he was just making them because he wanted them and either didnt want to pay the NFA tax (on the silencer) and didn't want to pay for a transferable machine gun.

i look at it this way. if i dont like NYC's gun laws, then i won't go to NYC. simple as that. if i lived in NYC, i would either have to go without a gun, move out of NYC, or break the law and blame only myself if i was caught and arrested. it is irresponsible for gun owners to blame others and argue the constitutionality of a law they knowingly violate when the real blame lies solely upon their blatant disregard for the law.

you may disagree with the law. you may choose to violate the law. but if you are caught breaking the law at least be man enough to take responsibility for your actions and not go blaming everyone else.

the law has been in effect in NYC since 1911. there are no current legal challenges to this law that i can find. that being said, this law is probably not going to change anytime soon. nobody, including those on THR who speak so vehemently against the NYC gun laws, is doing a damn thing about it. when i ask who is doing anything about it, all i get are responses that nobody can do anything about it because the system is geared in such a way that we cannot change the law.

if it was so obvious that this law was unconstitutional, then some court, some attorney, some lobbyist, somewhere, would decide to listen to a challenge of this law.

instead, you resort to complaining about it on THR. if you've done nothing to change the law, do you think the law will change? probably not. if you hate this law so much then please do something about it that will make a difference. complaining about it on THR will not make a difference. paying $20 a year to the NRA has not made a difference in nearly 100 years.

bottom line, is that i see nobody who is against this law doing a darn thing to change it.
 
this law is probably not going to change anytime soon.
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Indeed it won't, despite anyone's best efforts perhaps, and whoever gets knifed, raped, mugged or any combination of the above as a result of their slavish obedience of this law, well, that's just their tough luck, eh? :rolleyes:
 
here here!!

"but if you are caught breaking the law at least be man enough to take responsibility for your actions and not go blaming everyone else."


now wheres the fun in that?
thats a lost attitude you espouse
 
the pistolero wrote:
Indeed it won't, despite anyone's best efforts perhaps, and whoever gets knifed, raped, mugged or any combination of the above as a result of their slavish obedience of this law, well, that's just their tough luck, eh?
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there you go again. blaming everyone else. if you think you need to carry a gun in NYC for your own protection then go ahead and do so. you're not doing anything to help change the law except sit in your Texas home in front of the internet on THR and complain about it.

just be prepared to face any legal ramifications if you're caught. the original thread mentioned getting illegal and unregistered guns out of NYC. i for one am for it. it will reduce the amount of rapings, muggings, etc. that you mention. allowing people to disregard the NYC law and have anyone carrying a gun also allows crooks to do the same. remember that if you advocate citizens carrying guns in violation of NYC law you also, by default, advocate the crooks carrying guns in violation of NYC law. it applies to both parties.
 
Absolutely it is hard to challenge a law. I can't just go and file a case against an unconstitutional law when I don't have standing, or it would have been done already, and we would have a decision. So we have to wait until someone with "nothing to lose" has standing.
 
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