10mm vs .45 acp, pros and cons?

[355sigfan]

Lone_Gunman

I just made an observations based on my informal visits to gun shops and from scanning the internet. I still have a 10mm and need to buy loading componets and ammo for it from time to time. Not trying to write a term paper here where such facts would have to be cited and listed.
PAT

 

[Sean Smith]

Pat,

In recent years Pro Load and Triton added 10mm loads to their lineups (135gr Nosler and 155gr Quik-Shok respectively), and Texas Ammunition (small company, yeah) added an entire line of 10mm Express ammo out of the blue. None of the major companies that were making 10mm ammo before quit doing so in the last several years, at least that I'm aware of.

As for handguns... S&W re-introduced their 610 (!), and Dan Wesson introduced the 10mm Razorback, and the Pointman Major is now available in 10mm, too. The Glock 20/20c/29 and EAA Witness/Witness Compacts continue as before.

Meanwhile, oddly enough Baer makes what are by all accounts very nice and reliable versions of their Premier II in... get this... 10mm Auto.

 

[Cal4D4]

Regarding 10mm reliability... I have a Glock 20 (with KKM tight/supported chambered barrel, a G29 with factory barrel and a S&W 1076 (stock), shoot untumbled reloaded brass used many times at velocities in the 1000 to 1200 range and get near perfect reliability. Just one sample to add to the mix.

 

[355sigfan]

As for handguns... S&W re-introduced their 610 (!), and Dan Wesson introduced the 10mm Razorback, and the Pointman Major is now available in 10mm, too. The Glock 20/20c/29 and EAA Witness/Witness Compacts continue as before.
END

Thats all fine and dandy. I notice that you listed the 20C to expand your shot list by one. When its the same gun as the 20 for all intents and purposes. So basically you have one good revolver option, and 3 general auto options. The glocks, some 1911 and the witness guns. Texas ammo and Triton for that matter are small companies accounting to little more than a large scale reloader.

But again if your a 10mm fan, I am happy for you. If your guns reliable and you shoot it well and you have a fair supply of good ammo you should be fine. For me I just don't see it as performing any task better than a 45 acp in a standard or +p load. I love my Smith 610. I shoot it and enjoy it. If I were to do it agian I would probably buy a 625 however.
PAT

 

[tetchaje1]

I just made an observations based on my informal visits to gun shops and from scanning the internet.

Yeah, substantiated from the two biggest sources of horsecrap out there...

Perhaps a bit more research into the FACTS is in order. The FBI dropped the 1076 because pansy agents couldn't handle the recoil of full-house 10mm loads. At the behest of the FBI, cartridge manufacturers started loading "FBI-lite" 10mm loads at 180gr and 950fps. Winchester and S&W then discussed shortening the cartridge because at these velocities there was a lot of wasted space in the 10mm case. Thus, the 40S&W was born.

FWIW, everything I have read about the 1076's in service is the exact opposite of what you are saying. They were reliable, accurate, and durable as tanks, but their pansy agents were scared of them.

I am skeptical of ANYTHING that I hear in a gunshop. I have heard more lies from gunshop-gurus than anywhere else. No, thank you.

 

[355sigfan]

FWIW, everything I have read about the 1076's in service is the exact opposite of what you are saying. They were reliable, accurate, and durable as tanks, but their pansy agents were scared of them.
END

Sorry but this is far from the truth. Their smiths were returned because of multiple reliability problems with the frame mounted decockers. As for the pansy agents, you try going through their academy and shooting their pistol qualification with a full house 10mm load. I think your perspective might change a little if you knew more about what your were talking about. Its one thing to plink slowfire at the range and quite another to shoot a combat course and pass.

As for lies at the gunshop I agree. Completely. But the fact that you visit 10 shops and only 2 of them have 10mm ammo does say something about demand for the cartridge.

Again if it works for you great. My observations and opinion is that it seems to be on the path of the 41 mag. It does not do much that a 45 acp can not and it has some other negatives attahed to it. Hence people are using it less and less.
PAT

 

[Sean Smith]

Hence people are using it less and less.

...except that there is no evidence that this statement is actually true. Except, of course, hearsay from PAT.

Nobody is claiming that 10mm will outsell .45 ACP anytime soon. But let's see... more guns made... more ammo to choose from... sounds like the death-rattle of 10mm to me.

 

[355sigfan]

Well Sean look at where it is today compared to about 6 years ago of so. Colt no longer makes a 10mm, Smith no longer makes any of the autos, Springfield no longer makes any 10mm's. A few other companies that used to make them no longer do. Today if you want a 10mm you have very limited choices unless you go the custom gun route.

As far as ammo goes if you want full power defensive ammo from a major manufactuer your pretty much stuck with Winchesters Silvertip. This round has even been defanged a bit. It started at 1290 now from what my chrono shows its at 1180. Their have been articles in the various gun rags talking about the down turn of the 10mm. You can go to gun shops and see it in smaller and smaller qualities. What other evidence do you need.
PAT

 

[jato]

...except that there is no evidence that this statement is actually true. Except, of course, hearsay from PAT.

Down my way the 10mm is almost dead. Ammo is hard to find. 10mm guns are hard to find. Owners of 10mm guns are hard to find.

That being said, I have an old G20.

I am a fan of the 10mm, but they are next to dead in my area.

As for the Smith autos, I have also heard of reliability problems as well... From people who have owned them. I have heard nothing but negative comments.

I generally agree with PAT.

 

[jato]

As to the FBI issue, I don't know why they quit using 10mm. I suspect it was for many reasons.

I know most plain clothes officers don't like to carry big, heavy, powerful guns. Okay, so they are wimps!

 

[jc2]

Sorry but this is far from the truth. Their smiths were returned because of multiple reliability problems with the frame mounted decockers.

Sorry, PAT, but you are far from the truth. There was a reliability problem with the 1076 when it was first issued to the FBI due to modifications the FBI demanded S&W make. (Sounds a lot like NJSP and the SW99--the agency screws up and S&W gets the blame). The problems were quickly remedied, and the 1076 became one of the most rugged and reliable LE weapons available serving in the bureau and other LE agencies (and still in service, I might add).

As for ammo availability, if I were to use your technique, based "an [sic] observations based on my informal visits to gun shops and from scanning the internet," I'd say the 10mm is in better shape than the 357 Sig. In the local stores, ammunition for both is a little hard to find, and when you do, there's usually only a limited variety--though normally at least you have choice between Remington and PMC FMJs for the 10, and you are stuck with Speer for the 357. When you go to the internet, it is a different story--there are far more varieties 10mm available (roughly twice) than 357 Sig.

As to weapons availability, I haven't seen a lot of either in any gunstore recently though the last time I was in the nearest "big" town there were more 10s available (in the form of used G20s and S&Ws) than 357s. In terms of new weapons, for all practical purposes, you are limited to Glock and Sig for the 357 and Glock and EAA for 10mm--not a real significant difference. I guess it's just how you want to spin things, right?

I do know that used S&Ws tend to be hard to find and demand a premium price (and not from collectors), G20s don't stay on the shelves, and the wait for Dan Wessons is ridiculous--somehow, I don't see just a whole lot demand for a $900 357 you have to wait six months or more for delivery. There must be something a 10mm market out there.

 

[DeltaElite]

Well if Pat is tolling the death bell for the 10mm, then I better sell all of mine.

The FBI agents couldn't handle the 10mm gun. Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhh
They claimed they were too heavy to carry all day. Wahhhhhhhhhhh
The 10mm has too much recoil for the pansies that have come into Le in the last two decades. Wahhhhhhhhhhh

The 10mm has gotten and still continues to get a bad rap, primarily due to urban gun legends.
Between wimps in Le and gun shop commandos, it's no wonder the cartridge has problems gaining popularity.

 

[CZF]

As i recall..the FBI LOAD was a 180 gr bullet at only 900 fps.
The Federal 180 loads are very pleasant to shoot.

I had a 1076 that was MINT when i bought it. The gun was both
heavy and 100% reliable..aging Novak style nights. Just heavier
than my Witness, and it being DA so i sold it at a good profit. The guy that bought it just loves it. He shoots only factory ammo.

I have no doubt that PAT prefers the .357 SIG or 45 ACP.
As a former 10MM owner he does have some points. I'll
keep shooting my TEN until i can no longer buy brass.
If such happens, i have the option of a Witness .45 kit
or maybe .38 super.

Right now.. i like the .40 caliber bullet at around 1200 fps.
I think it better for defense against dangerous animals
like bear and cougar, than a .357 Magnum or .357 SIG...
or even a .45 JHP.

When talking with hunters here and reading on various
boards. The choice for Black Bear is .44/.41 and some the
10mm. Nobody has mentioned the .45 as a good bear
cartridge, unless it's a handloaded .45 COLT or a 454.

 

[rick458]

The Ten MM works well for a hunting round where as the .45 ACP does not

 

[355sigfan]

Sorry, PAT, but you are far from the truth. There was a reliability problem with the 1076 when it was first issued to the FBI due to modifications the FBI demanded S&W make. (Sounds a lot like NJSP and the SW99--the agency screws up and S&W gets the blame). The problems were quickly remedied, and the 1076 became one of the most rugged and reliable LE weapons available serving in the bureau and other LE agencies (and still in service, I might add).
END

Well actually I feel I am a bit closer to the truth than you are. The 1076 was in FBI hands a very short time. It was not popular and it did have reliability problems. And yes a handfull are still being used by some agents I am sure.

As for the 357 sig it has a long list of agencies currently using it and the ammo list is also large especially if you count the leo only offerings. Like Ranger and Federals Tactical line. As for hunting the 45 acp with +p loads will take just about anything you could or should take with a 10mm.

But hey I am not trolling here as I was accused of. So I will leave by saying enjoy shooting your 10mm. I will enjoy shooting my 610 from time to time. We will have to agree to disagree. Time will decide this debate.
PAT

 

[WESHOOT2]

I WANNA TURN

IMNSLE the 10mm can get near 'normal' 41 Magnum ammo, but when pushed the 41 goes WAY beyond.
200g 10mm can go faster than you think (and 220's at over 1200fps are fairly stout and available, too).

It comes down to platform and user..........
I sold my M20. (Would like to add a 10mm Witness and GP100, though. When Ruger makes it )

 

[WESHOOT2]

DID I MENTION?

41 Mag 170g JHC @ 1700fps, 210g @1500fps, 230g @ 1400fps.....

Just look at powder capacity

 

[jc2]

The 1076 was in FBI hands a very short time. It was not popular and it did have reliability problems. And yes a handfull are still being used by some agents I am sure.

You're right in that it had some reliability problems (largely the bureau's fault) that were quickly fixed. You're right in that it was not "popular" (hell of reason to select or not select a serious weapon), but you are wrong in connecting the two issues (reliability and "popularity")--theywere not related. The lawyers and accountants in the bureau's ranks wanted comfortable not comforting, but many "street agents" did hang on to their 1076s, and it also experienced a great deal of LE success outside the bureau including being adopted (and still in use) by one state police agency.

 

[SIGarmed]

The reason I like the .45 is because of the availability and selection of ammo, also its great for self defense. You can still get 10mm pretty easy, and its stout. The thing that many people don't mention is their intended purpose for the caliber. If its for using on animals in the bush than the 10mm pretty much beats the .45, or I'd rather have the 10mm for that purpose.

In the self defense lineup .45 ammo is good not only because of its heavy caliber but also because of modern bullet design. I think there is a better selection of improved bullet designs for the .45 ACP. Thats not to say the 10mm wouldn't be good for self defense, but there are less off of the shelf self defense ammo choices for it.

 

[neviander]

No one has said anything about over penetration in a self defense situation. I would imagine the 10mm is more likely to go through more walls/obstacles than the .45acp; if you ever had to fire at an intruder having just woke from a dead sleep. I just don't like the thought of my well intentioned bullet trying to protect my family accidentally killing my neighbor. It sounds like an awesome round for just about everything else though.

 

[R.W.Dale]