Phaetos
Member
Title says it all? Why do you need a 10mm? More velocity out of the barrel? Slightly higher energy? And who makes a 10mm?
10mm? What purpose and why?
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MCgunner
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Phaetos said:
The ten makes for a decent outdoor round. Watched Sweaty Teddy take some exotic off the YO with it on the outdoor channel once, used his Glock. It's only chambered in service size autos. Would make a neat moon clip revolver round! That's about it far as I can think of. I never bought one. I have a friend with an AMT in 10mm. I've shot it a few times. I'll keep my .45, thanks. If I wanna kill something with a handgun, I have an ultra accurate Ruger blackhawk in .45 colt with some hot handloads using 300 grain bullets or I'll use my TC in .30-30.
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Phaetos
Member
Hmmm.. interesting. My dad was reading "Outdoor Life" I think it was and they said to carry a 10mm with you when out hunting to fend off other wildlife 
Like what, killer squirrels ... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4489792.stm?
Like what, killer squirrels ... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4489792.stm?Cosmoline
Member
The 10mm, esp. with heavy hardcast loads, is equal to hot .357 hardcast as a backwoods cartridge. No .40, 9x19, .45 ACP or any standard semi cartridge can make this claim. Neither can the .357 Sig.
mindpilot
member
OUTDOOR HUNTING
I am an avid hunter in MN and I have a disability that allows me to hunt big game with a hand gun. 10mm, .40 , and .45 are the only guns allowed to be used. A 9mm is not enough, it is a proven fact to bring down a large animal let alone a human on Crystal Meth.
I am an avid hunter in MN and I have a disability that allows me to hunt big game with a hand gun. 10mm, .40 , and .45 are the only guns allowed to be used. A 9mm is not enough, it is a proven fact to bring down a large animal let alone a human on Crystal Meth.
MCgunner
Member
mindpilot said:I am an avid hunter in MN and I have a disability that allows me to hunt big game with a hand gun. 10mm, .40 , and .45 are the only guns allowed to be used. A 9mm is not enough, it is a proven fact to bring down a large animal let alone a human on Crystal Meth.
Wow, you have to be handicapped in Mn to handgun hunt? Guess I'll stay in Texas. I prefer my contender, but it's kinda a two handed gun. You only mention autoloading rounds. They restrict handgun cartridges to THAT? No .44 mag, .50AE, or the new .50S&W? My favorite is the .45 colt, but I'd like to try a .454 Casull.
The ten is more of a .357 in power. When it first came out, I remember reading articles about "a .41 mag auto" which is pretty much BS. The .41 mag is a neat caliber to handload even if the factory loads may be a little weak.
mindpilot
member
not sure
Well I am sure you can use those calibers too...not sure. I am not even sure about the handicap law anymore, I am refering to whitetail deer mainly. Only thing I hunt with a 10mm.
MCgunner said:
Well I am sure you can use those calibers too...not sure. I am not even sure about the handicap law anymore, I am refering to whitetail deer mainly. Only thing I hunt with a 10mm.
As previously stated, the 10mm claim to fame is that it is the bottom feeder equivalent to the .357 Magnum.
Its strength is that it is a good general purpose round that is adequate for hunting (at least up to whitetail-size game), and it is a decent defence round (though it is pretty DOA as a LE round).
Its weakness is that there are better hunting rounds, and there are better defence rounds.
Weapon selection is rather limited, and ammunition is relatively expensive and hard to find--particularly if you are not into bulk mail (or internet) ordering.
Its strength is that it is a good general purpose round that is adequate for hunting (at least up to whitetail-size game), and it is a decent defence round (though it is pretty DOA as a LE round).
Its weakness is that there are better hunting rounds, and there are better defence rounds.
Weapon selection is rather limited, and ammunition is relatively expensive and hard to find--particularly if you are not into bulk mail (or internet) ordering.
MTMilitiaman
Member
Yes perhaps better hunting rounds--if you want to go from a 28 oz auto to a 43 oz hunting revolver. One could argue as a trail pistol, the added weight of the revolver isn't worth the power increase. As for better defensive rounds, maybe some that come close. The .45 might expand marginally larger but the 10mm has more capacity, which is an issue in a defensive firearm. The 10mm gives you the capacity of the .40 with more energy and bullet expansion. It offers similar energy to the .357 but with more diameter and slightly more mass in most defensive loads. Also most .357s hold 6 to 8 rounds while my Glock 20 holds 15+1 with the possibility of increasing capacity to 17+1. Basically the 10mm offers expanded bullet diameters very close to that of the .45 but with more energy and magazine capacity.
Michael Zeleny
member
The 10mm round was designed by Norma in 1983 for chambering in the Dornaus & Dixon Bren Ten. S&W made its model 1076 for the FBI in the late Eighties, for adoption inspired by the Miami shootout. After the FBI requested that the 10mm round be downloaded, S&W developed its shortened .40 round.WT said:
MCgunner
Member
MTMilitiaman said:
28 ounce auto? That glock I fired was HUGE, felt heavier, maybe not. 1911s like the AMT Javelina are 40 ounce guns in the short slide version. For outdoor carry, I prefer a revolver anyway. Had a really nifty Rossi a while back, very light and durable in .357 mag. Traded it away. I have a L frame sized Taurus now. As for autos, if you prefer autos as an outdoor gun, the 10 is a good choice. There is the Coonan in .357. .357 is a lot more common on shelves at walmart than the 10. Part of my affection with the .357, though, is the use of .38 in the same gun. Revolvers can do that, not the Coonan. Of course, if you handload and install a light spring, you can make your ten a .40 or lighter. But, with the revolver, life is easier if you want your magnum to do small game duty.
I think if I wanted a 10 for outdoor duty and I didn't go for that S&W 610 (knew they'd made one, but couldn't remember the model), the Glock is the gun I'd get. I wasn't too impressed with that AMT my friend has. It's mediocre in accuracy and he had to have a smith work it over to get it to feed reliably. Does Colt still offer the 10? I'm really not up on what's available in the caliber. But, the M610 revolver would have the advantage of the .357 in that it could use .40s for light loads. You could have fun with this gun handloading for outdoor uses. This would be a very neat outdoor gun I think. The moon clips are much easier to use than speed loaders and as a defense revolver it'd be hard to beat, very versatile. It also might do pretty well with heavy bullets on pins, though I'd think a 625 in .45 would be better for that.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
10
I've always had the idea that, although just a bit over the top in a pistol, the 10mm would have made a dandy subgun round in an Uzi-based platform. A 10-inch barrel would put it on par with the .41 Magnum.
Think about it...a 600 rpm .41 Magnum.
I've always had the idea that, although just a bit over the top in a pistol, the 10mm would have made a dandy subgun round in an Uzi-based platform. A 10-inch barrel would put it on par with the .41 Magnum.
Think about it...a 600 rpm .41 Magnum.
The 10mm was designed in 1983 for the Bren Ten pistol.
After the 1986 FBI shootout in Florida, the FBI went looking for a better pistol than the 9mm, 38 special and 357 mag they used at the gun fight. The two bad guys were armed with a shotgun, pistols and a Ruger mini-14 in 223. The rifle alone accounted for three agents wounded and two agents killed. In my opinion if was not the caliber of the pistols that handicapped the FBI, it was the fact they went to a gunfight armed with pistols instead of rifles. It is bad to blame the caliber instead of the tactics used.
The FBI decided to go with a 10mm pistol, but it proved to be too much recoil for some agents to control, so they kept the 10mm S&W with a lower powered round. COTW reference says the FBI load is a 180 JHP at 950 fps. Rather light if you ask me. Shortly after the 10mm FBI load was developed, the 40 S&W came out.
Ranb
After the 1986 FBI shootout in Florida, the FBI went looking for a better pistol than the 9mm, 38 special and 357 mag they used at the gun fight. The two bad guys were armed with a shotgun, pistols and a Ruger mini-14 in 223. The rifle alone accounted for three agents wounded and two agents killed. In my opinion if was not the caliber of the pistols that handicapped the FBI, it was the fact they went to a gunfight armed with pistols instead of rifles. It is bad to blame the caliber instead of the tactics used.
The FBI decided to go with a 10mm pistol, but it proved to be too much recoil for some agents to control, so they kept the 10mm S&W with a lower powered round. COTW reference says the FBI load is a 180 JHP at 950 fps. Rather light if you ask me. Shortly after the 10mm FBI load was developed, the 40 S&W came out.
Ranb
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Phaetos
Member
A little arguement over when and who it was created for? hehe... So, S&W makes one, in revolver form? And Glock makes one in semi-auto. Who else makes one?
The 10mm has several shortcomings as defensive round you chose to gloss over. While it may offer the capacity of the .40 S&W, it does so in a considerably larger weapon--the G20 has all the ergonomics of a cinder block (it's too big to be a brick). The short S&Ws (1066/76/86) are better defence weapons based on ergonomics/pointability, but they are still large and heavy. While the 10mm may appear to offer better paper ballistics than the .40 S&W, it has not shown any advantage in actual defence use. We also need to remember that, with the exception of the 175-grain Silvertip, there are absolutely NO current generation (modern technology) bullets designed for the 10mm. The only "full-power" defence/LE ammo available for 10mm besides the 175-grain Silvertips relies on bullets designed for the .40 S&W pushed the the far upper end (or beyond) the optimum performance window for those bullets (and they are all totally unproven in actual defence/LE use). Another important point to consider with the 10mm is that when you move into the full-power range, you pay a penalty in terms of controllability. When you argued for the 10mm as a hunting round, you cited concerns with the platform (bottom feeder versus revolver). When it comes to defence, platform (size, weight, ergonomics) argues against the 10mm--especially the G20 which you use in your argument. Couple that with a dearth of suitable projectiles designed for the 10mm (at least at the upper-end) and the sacrifice on controllability with upper-end loads, and it is plain to see there are better choices for defence.MTMilitiaman said:
Tuner has it right. The 10mm would make a dandy sub or magazine fed carbine.
There really is no argument. It was created by Norma for the Bren Ten. WT was wrong.Phaetos said:
Glock makes the G20 and the G29 (a chopped G20) in 10mm. EAA sells an Italian import in 10mm. I believe the S&W revolver (M610) is currently out of production so it's strictly an old stock/used proposition. There have been a couple of limited runs of 10mm in 1911 format recently, but I don't believe they are regular production items. Probably the best 10s are the discontinued S&W mid-size models (1066/76/86) followed by the discontinued S&W full-size models (1006/26/46).
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priv8ter
Member
1911
Yeah, if a 1911 is more your style, Dan Wesson still makes them.
www.cz-usa.com
They look much prettier than the glocks, but will run you a bit more than the Glock or EAA option.
greg
Yeah, if a 1911 is more your style, Dan Wesson still makes them.
www.cz-usa.com
They look much prettier than the glocks, but will run you a bit more than the Glock or EAA option.
greg
The 10mm Auto is not a "perfect" cartridge. There is no single job that it does better than any other cartridge. What makes the 10mm so special is that it can do so many different jobs exceedingly well. In town I would feel well armed with a .40 S&W, .357 Mag or .45 ACP. Out in the woods a .41 Mag, .44 Mag, or heavily loaded .45 Colt are hard to beat. But with a 10mm I can do both with one gun and load. I think the .357 is close, but it's best defensive loads are the fast 125gn loadings and I prefer something heavier when out in the country. Right now my main carry piece is a Dan Wesson bobtail Commander stoked with either Winchester 175gn Silvertips or Double Tap 180gn Gold Dots (I can't decide which I prefer yet).
Skofnung
Member
Did'nt Col. Cooper have something to do with the development of the 10mm? I seem to remember him saying that the 10mm is best suited for making long shots with an auto-pistol and that under 50 yards it gives nothing up to the .45acp.
I'm a fan of the Glock 21. The big boy fits my hand well. The Glock 20 has always intruiged me. 15+1 of such a round does have an appeal.
I'm a fan of the Glock 21. The big boy fits my hand well. The Glock 20 has always intruiged me. 15+1 of such a round does have an appeal.
aguyindallas
Member
Where is HighVelocity when we need him.....
not true on the calibers to hunt deer in Mn. the case length has to be at least 1.285" with a couple of exceptions and this includes the 10MM... the .40 and 45ACP are not legal, the 45LC is. there is a long list of calibers legal, and my hunting handguns are a T/C 44 mag, T/C 375JDJ, Ruger Super blackhawk in 44 mag, and a Savage Striker in 308 win.......mindpilot said:I am an avid hunter in MN and I have a disability that allows me to hunt big game with a hand gun. 10mm, .40 , and .45 are the only guns allowed to be used. A 9mm is not enough, it is a proven fact to bring down a large animal let alone a human on Crystal Meth.
MTMilitiaman
Member
This is personal preference, entirely. First off, the Glock 20 is only .04" taller, .27" longer, .09" wider, and about 4.8 oz heavier than the Glock 22. It is smaller than my USP Tactical and dimensionally, it is shorter in both length and heigth than my brother's Springfield Mil-Spec and while it is a fullsize pistol, I have carried it concealed inside my waste band in its Uncle Mikes with a spare mag. So it is not entirely unfeasible. The main additions over the Glock 22 and other pistol models is in girth and grip circumference. It is a fullsize frame. More on that in a second. The good news is that it fits me very well. I have big hands with long fingers that fit very well in the Gen III finger grooves and it points more instinctively for me than the 1911. The controls are easy for me to reach, even as a lefty, and the pistol's operation couldn't be more simple. So from my perspective, it suffers nothing in terms of ergonomics or pointability.jc2 said:
I was just waiting for someone to blurt this off. Cause I have heard it too many times and am sick of it so I have armed myself with the knowledge to counter it. I recently brought these concerns to Speer in the form of an email and recieved the following reply:
"Robert: our 180 gr. GDHP load data for the 10mm has a max velocity of
1295 fps. I don't see why the bullet would cause a problem in that
velocity spectrum.
Shoot Straight!
Coy Getman
CCI/Speer Technical Service Coordinator
(800) 627-3640 # 5351 (pound key must be used)
Fax: (208) 799-3589"
So when Mike McNett pushes the 180 gr Gold Dot to 1300 fps, it's not being unrealistic. Mike sounds like a smart enough guy to have thought of that beforehand. And indeed his published geletin tests seem to support this. Using 10% ballistic geletin calibrated to FBI specs the .40 Smith and Wesson load using a 180 gr Gold Dot HP @ 1100 fps expands to .68" and penetrates to a depth of 14.75". Not bad. But add 200 fps and push the same bullet out of the 4.6 inch barrel of the Glock 20 and you get an expansion of .96" and a penetration of 15.25". So you can say you are pushing bullets beyond their velocity threshold and you can blather on about how the 10mm's energy doesn't accomplish much, but from my end it is looking pretty good.
Now the Speer Gold Dot has established a pretty good reputation in a variety of calibers and most consider it among the best designs currently available. And the reasons most street statistics don't show the 10mm Auto being much more effective than the .40 I suspect is because a) there haven't been nearly as many shootings with the 10mm Auto so the sample size is lacking and b) if I can recall correctly from statistics, when operating on a standard bell curve, it is exponentially more difficult to increase. So if a test concludes that 97% of chest shots with the .40 are fatal, then getting to 98% is going to be 10x more difficult for the 10mm than it was to get from 96% to 97%. Someone correct me if I am wrong here. Couple that with the difficulty of achieving reliable (falsifiable, testable) street data, and you can see why I am pessemestic about what so-and-so says about the 10mm Auto, esp when everything I see that can be tested suggests otherwise.
Something you fail to consider is that the .40 attempts to put bigger bullets out at the same velocity as the 9mm in a 9mm sized gun with the affect of increasing the recoil. Recoil is snappier and harder to control. Then you put the 10mm Auto in a full-sized handgun designed from the ground up to handle the capabilities of the cartridge and I don't really see how you can complain about the recoil of the Glock 20. Between the recoil characteristics of the frame material, the beefy slide, recoil spring, low bore axis of the Glock, and the way the wider grip of the Glock 20 distributes recoil in a larger portion of the hand, and the Glock is very comfortable to shoot. Personally I find my Glock to be more comfortable and easy to control than my brother's Springfield Mil-Spec even though the Mil-Spec is heavier and gets 200 fpe less at the muzzle. I've seen a 17-year old girl do very well with the Glock 20 loaded with Double Taps so I refuse to believe all but the most anemic couldn't become profiecent with the pistol with practice. And while I acknowledge I am far from where I want to be in my pistol craft, I've never been as comfortable or confident in my abilities and my equipment as I am with the Glock. I shoot it better than any other pistol I have ever fired, including a fullsize Beretta 9mm.
Finally something we agree on. Where is this long rumored Glock carbine? If they introduced a carbine with the basic feeling and ergonomics of their pistols, to compete with the Beretta Storm, it would be awesome. Esp if they made mags interchangeable with their pistols then introduced a 10mm version and a 29 round magazine for it so we didn't have to rely on aftermarket magazines of questionable quality and durability. I am seeing Picatanny rails, a red dot scope, a 9 or 10 inch barrel or so...o boy...it might actually be a pistol caliber carbine I would consider.
Not expertly done I admit but practicing is the fun part. The chest is two 15 round mags and a mag loaded with 12 rounds cause 3 slipped between the truck seats or otherwise went MIA, all drew from hip and shot till slide lock at about 25 feet in about 10 seconds or so. The head shots was 10 rounds fired slow fire from 30 feet or so. All rounds were 180 gr Double Tap FMJs.
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Bob R
Member
8.85" barrel
30 rounds of 10mm
HK also makes a MP5/40 to go with the MP5/10
http://www.hkpro.com/MP5-10.htm
Every one should have a 10mm.
bob
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