10mm? What purpose and why?

[Gordy Wesen]

If you live where you'll encounter Cougers, black bear and people in several layers of winter clothing the 10mm is an unbelieveably nice niche gun, especially in the Glock 29. It's compact and easy to carry. If you hunt outside your backyard, pick another caliber. If you live in the city, go get a .45 or whatever suits your particular need. Guns are tools. The people who continually bash the 10 think the world filled with nails and carry only a hammer.

 

[Michael Courtney]

We also need to remember that, with the exception of the 175-grain Silvertip, there are absolutely NO current generation (modern technology) bullets designed for the 10mm.

This is simply wrong. Double tap offers a wide variety of loads including several weights using the Gold Dot, the XTP in 180 and 200 grains, and the Golden Saber in 165 grains, as well as the 135 grain Nosler. The whole range of penetration possibilities is covered with full power loads. Corbon also offers their Pow'R Ball loading in 135 grains, and Glaser offers a 115 grain load.

Michael Courtney

 

[MCgunner]

This is simply wrong. Double tap offers a wide variety of loads including several weights using the Gold Dot, the XTP in 180 and 200 grains, and the Golden Saber in 165 grains, as well as the 135 grain Nosler. The whole range of penetration possibilities is covered with full power loads. Corbon also offers their Pow'R Ball loading in 135 grains, and Glaser offers a 115 grain load.

Michael Courtney

Well, if I had a 10, I'd handload for it, but one thing I like about common calibers is you can walk into any walmart in America where every you may be and pick up a box. 10s are getting obscure. I don't care much for .44 special for the same reason, yet there's more .44 special loads out there I'm sure than there are 10s.

I'd still like one of those S&W 610s. Now, this friggin' thread has me wanting anothe expensive gun again. :banghead: There was a gun show near me this weekend. Thankfully I missed it.

 

[dairycreek]

I believe the 10mm was designed by S&W at the request of the FBI after the infamous Miami shootout in the 1980's.

Right on! Ater the abysmal performance of the 9mm round in that shootout which resulted in the loss of life for undergunned FBI agents, there was a hue and cry among law enforcement for a stronger handgun round to be developed. Hence the 10mm. But, the political "heads" of that time got all PC and opined that the round was just too strong and that they would be publicly criticized. So, they opted for someting less strong and "vicious" than the infamous 10mm and that ended up being the .40 S&W.

I sat in a courtroom and listened to a female judge absolutely ream a federal marshal for carrying a 10mm which he had sucessfuly used in a gunfight against drug dealers. Go figure

 

[1911Tuner]

H&K

Bob R...Neat! I'd heard that H&K was workin' on one, but stopped keepin' up with the story. Just shows where I've had MY head buried for awhile.

10mm Thompson Sub clone w/drum magazine anyone?

 

[Guns_and_Labs]

If you live where you'll encounter Cougers, black bear and people in several layers of winter clothing the 10mm is an unbelieveably nice niche gun, especially in the Glock 29. It's compact and easy to carry. If you hunt outside your backyard, pick another caliber. If you live in the city, go get a .45 or whatever suits your particular need.

+1

I also find the 10mm has a definite edge (over the .45 acp or .40 S&W) on penetration through light cover, knock down of opponents with body armor, and longer range shots (e.g. over 50 yards).

It should be said that the .308 does an even better job, but it's tougher to carry concealed.

 

[jc2]

This is simply wrong. Double tap offers a wide variety of loads including several weights using the Gold Dot, the XTP in 180 and 200 grains, and the Golden Saber in 165 grains, as well as the 135 grain Nosler. The whole range of penetration possibilities is covered with full power loads. Corbon also offers their Pow'R Ball loading in 135 grains, and Glaser offers a 115 grain load.

Michael Courtney

Nope, Mikey, you are dead wrong. The Gold Dot, Golden Sabre and Nosler bullets (bullets, Mikey, bullets) Double Tap uses are designed for the .40 S&W (and .40 S&W velocities/energy levels)--not for the 10mm. Mike McNett doesn't design or manufacture bullets (and he doesn't know how to conduct accurate ballistic gelatin testing either).

None of the major manufacturers have spent a dime on defence/LE bullets (bullets, Mikey, bullets) for the 10mm in many, many years (if ever). The 10mm was long dead as a LE/defence round long before the development of current generation, modern technology bullets.

 

[redneck2]

let me preface this by saying, I handload for my G20 and Delta Elite, so

Let's see. I want to get this straight.....

I've got 15 rounds of a rifle weight bullet (180 grain Gold Dots), at nearly rifle velocities (1,320 fps)...

and you're asking "why??"

guess my question is "why not ??". If there were ever a perfect SD round it seems to be the 10.

Now, I'm really not a Glock fan. They're blocky, ugly, and there's just nothing to like about them, other than the fact they they need virtually no maintenance, are simple to use, always go "bang", and really reduce the felt recoil to a manageable level.

My house gun is the G20 with a M6. Got a safe full of guns including the Delta, a M29, a couple of 1911's, a Ruger .45LC. Which one is going to be better???

If I just want something to go out and shoot, the Glock is probably the last on the list. It's just not "fun". But for something at 2:30 am, it's the weapon of choice. YMMV.

 

[NordicG3K]

Nope, Mikey, you are dead wrong. The Gold Dot, Golden Sabre and Nosler bullets (bullets, Mikey, bullets) Double Tap uses are designed for the .40 S&W (and .40 S&W velocities/energy levels)--not for the 10mm. Mike McNett doesn't design or manufacture bullets (and he doesn't know how to conduct accurate ballistic gelatin testing either).

None of the major manufacturers have spent a dime on defence/LE bullets (bullets, Mikey, bullets) for the 10mm in many, many years (if ever). The 10mm was long dead as a LE/defence round long before the development of current generation, modern technology bullets.

I don't feel this is a completely fair assessment. The Hornady XTPs and the Winchester 175gn Silvertip were indeed designed for the 10mm, but all bullets have a "performance window" they are designed for. While ammo manufacturers try to establish a specified muzzle velocity (for a given barrel length), they have absolutely no control over impact velocities as this is largely determined by the distance between the shooter and target. Because of this manufacturers try to ensure that their bullets will perform adequately over as wide a range of velocities as possible. Most of this effort is on the downward end of the spectrum (positive expansion at slower than normal velocities), but there is also a "cushion" at the high end as well. It must also be remembered that part of the reason for the 10mm is to extend the range of the handgun. In other words, you have the ability to hit your target with the same (or greater) energy as a .40 S&W or .45 ACP, but further away. I have not as of yet seen any tests showing any .40 S&W bullet coming apart inside the target when fired at 10mm velocities. Overpenetration is more likely, but personally I don't think this is as big of an issue as it's portrayed. If you consider other possibilities such as the use of FMJ ammunition, hits in relatively shallow target areas such as arms or legs, or just plain misses for that matter, then you're going to also have bullets continuing on beyond the intended target.

 

[JohnKSa]

I don't feel this is a completely fair assessment.

Clearly you haven't seen many discussions on this forum about 10mm if you were expecting fair assessments. These discussions are often more about what people feel they can say without being challenged than they are about fair assessments.

I too, would be interested to hear of bullet failures resulting from driving ".40 S&W bullets" at 10mm velocities. Like you, I have seen/heard no evidence of this being a problem.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

This thread is the ballistic equivalent of masturbation.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Well, if I had a 10, I'd handload for it, but one thing I like about common calibers is you can walk into any walmart in America where every you may be and pick up a box. 10s are getting obscure. I don't care much for .44 special for the same reason, yet there's more .44 special loads out there I'm sure than there are 10s.

Actually, the 10mm has been making a significant comeback the last 4 or 5 years. After S&W discontinued the 10xx series, Glock or a custom 1911 were about your only choices. Now, EAA has a dozen variations of the Witness in 10mm, dan wesson has 3, Kimber has 2, STI makes some, Parker arms, the S&W 610, Vector MP5/10, Oly Arms 10mm carbine, and a few others. Ammo is Remington UMC 180, CCI blazer 200, Federal American Eagle 180 and 200, Federal Hydra-shok 180, Winchester silvertip 175, Norma 170, PMC 180 and 200,and of course a variety from Buffalo Bore and Double tap. I'm sure I've missed a few, but what I am trying to say that finding either a gun or ammunition in 10mm is not difficult unless you ONLY shop at Wal-Mart. And if that is the case, you're not going to find much 44 spl. either. (and countless other cartridges).

We also need to remember that, with the exception of the 175-grain Silvertip, there are absolutely NO current generation (modern technology) bullets designed for the 10mm.

Find me a 200 grain .40 S&W load. Fact is, most 180 and all 200 grain pills were designed for the 10mm's higher velocities. The .40 S&W has fairly dismal velocity with 180's and too short a case to load 200's. Yes, some manufacturers load the .40 with 180 grain pills. And you can get .410 loaded with 00 buck . Speer says their 180 gr. GD is designed to operate up to 1295 FPS. The .40 will barely hit 1100 with top loads. So why would a bullet be designed for a cartridge that can only achieve 80% of the velocity for which the bullet was designed to operate up to?

To the original post:

The 10mm does not push to slightly higher velocities than .40. In the world of autoloading handguns, 200-300 FPS is a BIG difference. You are talking a 70% energy gain in maximum loads for each cartridge. That's .30-30 vs. .30-06. Or, if you prefer cars, a Pontiac Grand Prix GTP vs. a Corvette Z06.

But the 10mm isn't for everyone. Some folks are OK with mediocrity

 

[jc2]

I don't feel this is a completely fair assessment.

Actually, it is. The specific bullets cited (Gold Dots, Golden Sabres) were definitely designed for a .40 S&W application. There may be some "cushion" at the upper end, but there's no doubt the 10mm boutique loads are at the upper end or beyond their optimum performance window. Actually, it is pretty well documented that Gold Dots, in particular, performance deteriorates when pushed too fast (not fragmenting but delivering smaller temporary and permanent cavities). It is very likely that if the boutiques would knock 150-250 fps they would be more effective. BUT you are very right in one point: None of these boutique loads are test (and have absolutely NO LE/defence performance history). There are lots of proven loads available. It's rather silly to bet your life on what are essentially unproven/untested loads just because they're a little faster when there are a number tested and well-proven loads available.

 

[cz75bdneos22]

Do you n-e-e-d it? No..Do you w-a-n-t it? Y-E-S !!!!
i settled on Glock G20... YMMV

 

[MTMilitiaman]

jc2, I provided an email from Speer documenting their approval with the velocity McNett loads the 180 gr Gold Dot at. That's info straight out of the horse's mouth saying you're wrong and still you deny it. Fact is, if those bullets weren't designed to perform and perform well at those velocities, Speer wouldn't load them to that velocity and provide data for it in their own manuals.

As for McNett's testing procedures, I dare say, unless you can provide info that says specifically what he did wrong, it is best to keep such allegations to yourself. Or let me guess, you can do better? I don't see your company name on a box of ammunition widely regarded to be some of the best available anywhere.

 

[warriorsociologist]

Actually, it is. The specific bullets cited (Gold Dots, Golden Sabres) were definitely designed for a .40 S&W application. There may be some "cushion" at the upper end, but there's no doubt the 10mm boutique loads are at the upper end or beyond their optimum performance window. .

Why are you so certain this is a fact? Where is your evidence? I can’t understand how or why you are trying to make such sweeping and blanket statements. Just because some of these these bullets were in fact designed to perform well at “.40 velocities” (e.g., well lower than can be achieved in a 10mm) in no way necessitates/requires that they will automatically perform poorly/worse/(or better for that matter) if pushed faster. Certainly there are some bullet designs that suffer from being pushed “too fast,” but JHPs like Hornady's 200 XTP bullets certainly perform better at "10mm velocities" than at ".40 velocities" and most .40 load "recipes" hardly ever contain any truly viable loads >180gr bullets. Also, for example, Beartooth's 200gr WFN hard cast (my favorite 10mm hunting round) was designed specifically for the 10mm. I generally don’t take such a confrontational stance on these ‘boards, but it does appear that you are overly sure about a few things said here that (so far) you have backed up with little (make that no?) substance. Your “faster is always bad for bullets” logic is flawed…but like many such universal claims, there is always a good number or readily available examples of such things to “prove such a case” to less-informed bystanders who don’t know/care enough to dig deep enough to find the “real” truth/trend/facts. I know this sounds harsh, but if you do have anything that does contribute in the way of actual data or substantiated facts, please share them with us. If not, please remember that your opinion is just that – an opinion – and shouldn’t be trumped up to appear as anything more than precisely that.

 

[mr.trooper]

I need a 10mm Glock 20 to go with this:

Civilian Legal MP5-10

 

[VirgilCaine]

+1

I also find the 10mm has a definite edge (over the .45 acp or .40 S&W) on penetration through light cover, knock down of opponents with body armor, and longer range shots (e.g. over 50 yards).

Wow, I didn't know it was so different from the 9mm. The guys who made Deus Ex knew their stuff more than I thought. [It's a future-SF video game where you carry 10mm handgun and a .308 bullpup assault rifle, rather than the current 9mm/.223 standard--cops/military wanted more power vs. terrorists.

 

[warriorsociologist]

FYI

I need a 10mm Glock 20 to go with this:

Civilian Legal MP5-10

Before buying that Vector, check some of the 10mm forums (the 10-ring at GT for starters). Those who have picked these up have found them to be hit & miss (maybe even more "miss"). I gave up my spot on the waiting list after seeing some of these stories & talking to Vector Arms a few times (not to mention that doing so allowed me to buy 3 hanguns I would have otherwise passed up).

 

[NordicG3K]

Actually, it is. The specific bullets cited (Gold Dots, Golden Sabres) were definitely designed for a .40 S&W application. There may be some "cushion" at the upper end, but there's no doubt the 10mm boutique loads are at the upper end or beyond their optimum performance window. Actually, it is pretty well documented that Gold Dots, in particular, performance deteriorates when pushed too fast (not fragmenting but delivering smaller temporary and permanent cavities). It is very likely that if the boutiques would knock 150-250 fps they would be more effective. BUT you are very right in one point: None of these boutique loads are test (and have absolutely NO LE/defence performance history). There are lots of proven loads available. It's rather silly to bet your life on what are essentially unproven/untested loads just because they're a little faster when there are a number tested and well-proven loads available.

I do not disagree with your point concerning the original design requirements of the Gold Dots and Golden Sabers in .40 caliber. My point is that one of the original goals of the 10mm Auto was to extend the effective range of the handgun. So, what is the difference in terminal performance of a .40 S&W 180gn Gold Dot hitting it's target at 900fps at a distance of 25 yards and a 10mm using the identical bullet hitting it's target at 900fps at 50 to 75 yards? As far as temporary and permanent cavities, these are fine if you're attacked by a blob of jello in some dark, deserted alley, but personally I don't put a lot of weight into such "science." There are far too many variables such as clothing, bone, fat, bullet path, bullet placement, barriers, etc. that have, in my opinion, far greater impact on terminal performance. These are the reasons why I feel your statements are not a fair appraisal of the situation.

 

[jc2]

Why are you so certain this is a fact?

Speer developed the Gold Dot bullet for use in its own line of ammunition (even though they do sell components to the boutiques like DT as well individual loaders). They developed the Gold Dot bullets DT uses for their own .40 S&W ammuniton. Because they share a common diameter, the .40 S&W Gold Dots will work in a 10mm, but they were designed for the .40 S&W.

in no way necessitates/requires that they will automatically perform poorly/worse/(or better for that matter) if pushed faster.

That is part of the problem. Nobody really KNOWS how they will perform at the velocities some the boutiques push them. We do know for a fact that Gold Dot performance deteriorates (smaller temporary permanent cavities) when pushed too fast. These boutique loads have not been tested by any independent, professional labs or testers and remained TOTALLY UNPROVEN in actual LE/defence use. We know .40 S&W Gold Dot bullets perform very well at ~1000 fps based on test results from independent, professional labs and testers and actual results based on their use in LE. We have no real idea (though lots of speculation) on how they will perform at the velocities some these boutiques push them. Again, why bet your life on unknown when we know the same bullet at ~1000 fps HAS PROVEN to be very effective in LE/defence applications. Some become so enamoured of MV that they loose any modicum of common sense they might have.

Also, for example, Beartooth's 200gr WFN hard cast (my favorite 10mm hunting round) was designed specifically for the 10mm.

Actually, we have sort of ventured off track here. The discussion of the Gold Dot, Golden Sabre loads was strictly in reference to LE/defence loads/applications. We've already acknowledged that while the 10mm (like its ballistic twin the .357 Magnum) is adequate (at closer ranges with good placement) for medium game (up to whitetails anyway), there are far better calibres for hunting. This discussion has actually morphed into a discussion of the boutique loads from small shops like Double Tap based on a poster taking umbrage at my remark that there are better calibres for LE/defence (and LE has certainly "voted with its feet" when it comes to the 10mm).

BTW, had you bothered to read before you chose to take a confrontational chance, you would have seen that I never said "faster is always bad for bullets" (that's your strawman)--I have said faster is not always better which is very different.

 

[jc2]

I do not disagree with your point concerning the original design requirements of the Gold Dots and Golden Sabers in .40 caliber. My point is that one of the original goals of the 10mm Auto was to extend the effective range of the handgun. So, what is the difference in terminal performance of a .40 S&W 180gn Gold Dot hitting it's target at 900fps at a distance of 25 yards and a 10mm using the identical bullet hitting it's target at 900fps at 50 to 75 yards? As far as temporary and permanent cavities, these are fine if you're attacked by a blob of jello in some dark, deserted alley, but personally I don't put a lot of weight into such "science." There are far too many variables such as clothing, bone, fat, bullet path, bullet placement, barriers, etc. that have, in my opinion, far greater impact on terminal performance. These are the reasons why I feel your statements are not a fair appraisal of the situation.

Again, we were originally talking about LE/defence which involves ranges considerably less than 25 yards in the large majority of the cases. I certainly don't want to give up effectiveness under 25 yards in LE/defence usage in order to gain effectiveness in the 50 to 75 yard range. As far ballistic testing goes, we know, whether you like it or not, that Gold Dots in particular loose effectiveness when pushed too fast. As far as "variables such as clothing, bone, fat, bullet path, bullet placement, barriers, etc.," NONE of the boutique 10mm loads have ANY LE/defence performance record against "variables such as clothing, bone, fat, bullet path, bullet placement, barriers, etc." while we KNOW these bullets have proven effective in LE/defence use at common .40 S&W velocities for which they were designed.

Frankly, I like the 10mm. I have a couple of them, and one was my regular carry piece for years. If I ever go back to a bottom feeder for regular carry, it will be again. Even now, I carry a .357 Magnum which the ballistic twin (if you will, the revolver equivalent of the 10mm). I like the calibre 10mm (and .357 Magnum), but as stated before, which started this whole mess, there are better calibres for hunting and better calibres for LE/defence (but I can't think of any better calibre for doing both adequately)--and my reservations about the various boutique shops/loads for LE/defence stand

 

[warriorsociologist]

I guess that's one way to respond. Since when was this a GDHP/GSHP only thread? This is a 10mm thread.

10mm? What purpose and why?

Title says it all? Why do you need a 10mm? More velocity out of the barrel? Slightly higher energy? And who makes a 10mm?

Also, there are in fact plenty of folks who seem to be more "in the know" about how many of these perform than you seem to be. Most of my experience with these has been on whitetail (XTP & WFN). We are all still waiting for the reasons that you think the testing McNett has done with his loads is not adequate...or how/why experiences such as mine do not translate into support for the position that these bullets can and do perform well at these higher velocities.

So, what tests would you recommend? How might we/McNett/others satisfy your unfounded skepticism? I say "unfounded" because you haven't given us anything but conjecture.

Don't forget that many of the original .40/10mm bullets were in fact designed with the 10mm in mind. Even some of the less spectacular (in terms of design) of these such as the Fed 190gr JHP performed quite well and earned their (albeit short-lived) place in the FBI inventory. Many of these "older-tech" bullets performed quite well at the "warm" velocities of these Fed loads, the early Norms loads, the subsequent (rather) anemic "FBI-lite" loads, and later the .40S&W. Many of today's newer bullets represent a variety of improved designs with respect to maintaining their integrity upon impact and such. If anything, it would seem that until proven otherwise, we should expect better performance out of these more recent bullets. Most of the tests I have seen (by McNett and others) have been compelling to me and many others...and my experience with XTPs and WFN have been very impressive on deer. I also have a friend in MN who used a 180gr GSHP (S&W 610) to take a nice 8-pointer last year with a through-and-through ribs/shoulder wound about 2 years ago. As I said before, if you have anything more than your hunches to go on with respect to your assessment that these rounds shouldn't be expected to perform up to snuff at "10mm velocities"...by all means, let's have it.


Also, the .357 mag is not the balistic twin of the 10mm. A more adequate comparison would be a "warm"/moderate (not max) .41 mag. I also am a .357 mag fan. As 'proof,' .38+p/.357 loads are in fact a much better represented caliber in my CCW guns (3) vs. my 10mm CCW pieces (1).

...my reservations about the various boutique shops/loads for LE/defence stand

fair enough....but all I/we want to know is on what do they stand??? So far, it seem to only be on your gut feeling.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

...based on a poster taking umbrage at my remark that there are better calibres...

And yet you have chosen to completely sideskirt my remarks and basically the whole issue.

As far ballistic testing goes, we know, whether you like it or not, that Gold Dots in particular loose effectiveness when pushed too fast.

And yet again, you have yet to provide any evidence that states the 10mm pushes these bullets "too fast" to counter that by the Speer representative, who says they're not. So while you seem to be able to state the same thing over and over again, it is as of now unsupported and completely unfounded...no matter how many times you say it.

 

[NordicG3K]

Again, we were originally talking about LE/defence which involves ranges considerably less than 25 yards in the large majority of the cases. I certainly don't want to give up effectiveness under 25 yards in LE/defence usage in order to gain effectiveness in the 50 to 75 yard range. As far ballistic testing goes, we know, whether you like it or not, that Gold Dots in particular loose effectiveness when pushed too fast. As far as "variables such as clothing, bone, fat, bullet path, bullet placement, barriers, etc.," NONE of the boutique 10mm loads have ANY LE/defence performance record against "variables such as clothing, bone, fat, bullet path, bullet placement, barriers, etc." while we KNOW these bullets have proven effective in LE/defence use at common .40 S&W velocities for which they were designed.

Frankly, I like the 10mm. I have a couple of them, and one was my regular carry piece for years. If I ever go back to a bottom feeder for regular carry, it will be again. Even now, I carry a .357 Magnum which the ballistic twin (if you will, the revolver equivalent of the 10mm). I like the calibre 10mm (and .357 Magnum), but as stated before, which started this whole mess, there are better calibres for hunting and better calibres for LE/defence (but I can't think of any better calibre for doing both adequately)--and my reservations about the various boutique shops/loads for LE/defence stand

This topic has wandered a bit, so you'll have to forgive me if I focused on issues beyond LE/defence issues. I certainly agree with you on two points however. First off, there are not enough bullets designed specifically for full-power 10mm loads. Secondly, there is simply not enough data (if any) to establish the 10mm's performance using ammunition from such makers as Double Tap, TAC, Cor-Bon, Pro-Load, etc.

Personally I find the real-world value of ballistic gelatin testing rather suspect due to the issues I already discussed. Objective, scientific data requires consistent and repeatable testing though and it is impossible to do this using actual "real-world" shootings.