10mm? What purpose and why?

[Myself]

Getting back on track. The 10mm gives a user a great deal of choices in power for a large number of applications. It is a single cartrige that can perform as a hunting, self-defense and critter protection round. I believe that is its greatest asset.

Platforms are currently being produced by Kimber, Witness. STI, Dan Wesson (CZ) and Vector. The various Colt & Smith offerings that have been produced in the past are fairly avialable. There have been numerous other smaller manufactures some good some not that have produced 10's.

Additional specific information is avialable at Nordic's site or at 10mmtalk.

 

[jc2]

Most of my experience with these has been on whitetail (XTP & WFN). We are all still waiting for the reasons that you think the testing McNett has done with his loads is not adequate...or how/why experiences such as mine do not translate into support for the position that these bullets can and do perform well at these higher velocities.

Again (still), you are focusing on one issue--hunting--while my remarks have been directed in another direction--LE/defence. The 10mm is an adequate low-end hunting round for medium game (up to whitetail-size). It is in the same class as the .357 Magnum (actually it is the ballistic twin of the .357 Magnum--the 10mm is really the bottom feeder equivalent of the .357 Magnum).

So, what tests would you recommend? How might we/McNett/others satisfy your unfounded skepticism? I say "unfounded" because you haven't given us anything but conjecture.

Again, I would suggest you read BEFORE you post. Double Tap's Gold Dot (LE/defence loads) have NOT been test by any independent, professional labs/testers (and Mike's PR results have been openly questioned by independent labs/testers). Double Tap's Gold Dot loads are totally UNPROVEN and have NO RECORD in actual LE/defence use. That is by no means "unfounded skepticism" but merely a stating of the facts.

Don't forget that many of the original .40/10mm bullets were in fact designed with the 10mm in mind. Even some of the less spectacular (in terms of design) of these such as the Fed 190gr JHP performed quite well and earned their (albeit short-lived) place in the FBI inventory.

Again, these bullets have not been the focus of the discussion (please try reading before posting). We have been discussing the loads offered by the various boutiques. The 190-grain Federal JHP was my favourite 10mm carry load for years. Unfortunately, it is no longer manufacutured and is no longer available. (BTW, despite you correct in stating it was a "warm" load. It's velocity fell considerably short of that of most of the boutique loads we've been discussing.) You might also note that I acknowledged the 175-grain Silvertip as good current production LE/defence load (and is what I carry when I carry a 10mm nowadays).

Also, the .357 mag is not the balistic twin of the 10mm. A more adequate comparison would be a "warm"/moderate (not max) .41 mag.

Unfortunately, with this statement, you are revealing how little you know about the subject. When you compare the upper-end (velocity/energy wise) .357 Magnum loads from manufacturers such as Buffalo Bore with the upper-end (again, velocity/energy wise) from manufacturers such as Double Tap, you will find that they are virtually identical (with the .357 Magnum a very, very slight, insignificant advantage in velocity/energy in most cases). On the other hand, when you look at upper-end .41 Magnum loads by Buffalo Bore, you will see that the .41 Magnum exceeds the energy levels of the hottest 10mm by roughly 50%. There truly is no comparison of the .41 Magnum to the 10mm when you compare max load to max load to max load. If you would like to continue your silliness, I could compare Federal 180-grain 10mm Hydra-Shok at ~1030 fps with the Speer 180-grain .40 S&W Gold Dot at ~1025 fps and point out that the 10mm competes favourably with .40 S&W.

 

[jc2]

This topic has wandered a bit, so you'll have to forgive me if I focused on issues beyond LE/defence issues. I certainly agree with you on two points however. First off, there are not enough bullets designed specifically for full-power 10mm loads. Secondly, there is simply not enough data (if any) to establish the 10mm's performance using ammunition from such makers as Double Tap, TAC, Cor-Bon, Pro-Load, etc.

That's really all I have been trying to say all along (except I have added that it seems kind of silly to depend on what is unessentially totally unproven loads for defence of life and limb when there are any number of loads that have been very well tested and have proven themselves themselves effective repeatedly in actual use).

 

[jc2]

And yet again, you have yet to provide any evidence that states the 10mm pushes these bullets "too fast" to counter that by the Speer representative, who says they're not. So while you seem to be able to state the same thing over and over again, it is as of now unsupported and completely unfounded...no matter how many times you say it.

Actually, you are mixing three separate points.

The first point was that Double Tap is pushing their Gold Dot loads to or beyond the the upper-end of their optimum performance window. DT loads their 180-grain GD to 1300 fps, and you cite a max velocity 1295 for the 180-grain GD. You are supporting exactly what I said.

The second point is that Gold Dots loose efficiency (i.e., yield smaller temporary and permanent cavities) when pushed at or beyond their optimum performance window. That is well-known characteristic of Gold Dots and can be verified David DiFabio, Gary Roberts and others.

The third point is simply stating the fact that the load simply has NOT been test by a professional, independent lab, and it has NO performance history ("street record").

As for DT's test results (which, BTW, are published to sell his product), they have been openly questioned by professional testers with a whole lot more experience with ballistic gelatin testing and Gold Dot bullets than DT. Serious ballistic testing is not a job for amateurs, and DT is a rank amateur when it comes to ballistic testing. So, yes, Double Tap's results are open to question for a couple of very good reasons.

 

[warriorsociologist]

Again (still), you are focusing on one issue--hunting--while my remarks have been directed in another direction--LE/defense. The 10mm is an adequate low-end hunting round for medium game (up to whitetail-size). It is in the same class as the .357 Magnum (actually it is the ballistic twin of the .357 Magnum--the 10mm is really the bottom feeder equivalent of the .357 Magnum).

Please explain to me how this is irrelevant to other areas (like LE/defense)?

Again, I would suggest you read BEFORE you post.

Wow…you first.

Double Tap's Gold Dot (LE/defense loads) have NOT been test by any independent, professional labs/testers (and Mike's PR results have been openly questioned by independent labs/testers). Double Tap's Gold Dot loads are totally UNPROVEN and have NO RECORD in actual LE/defense use. That is by no means "unfounded skepticism" but merely a stating of the facts.

This is practically my point. Perhaps you need to re-read what has been posted as well. PLEASE TELL US WHAT TESTS should these pros/independents do that Mike hasn't done (or how he fails to comply with their standards)? How does a lack of evidence = proof of poor results? Basing you opinion if "NO RECORDS in actual LE/defense use" is in fact (virtually by definition) "unfounded skepticism.” If this is still not clear, I am afraid I’re run out of patience to try to help you understand this point.

Again, these bullets have not been the focus of the discussion (please try reading before posting).

Pot calling the kettle black I see. Get over yourself and jump down from your high horse (it’s not needed to travel “the high road”). As I said, you need to read some more as well (specifically threads other than your own). The couple types of bullets you and a few others have been focusing on do not encompass the entire topic the original poster started this thread with.

We have been discussing the loads offered by the various boutiques. The 190-grain Federal JHP was my favourite 10mm carry load for years. Unfortunately, it is no longer manufacutured and is no longer available. (BTW, despite you correct in stating it was a "warm" load. It's velocity fell considerably short of that of most of the boutique loads we've been discussing.) You might also note that I acknowledged the 175-grain Silvertip as good current production LE/defense load (and is what I carry when I carry a 10mm nowadays).

The 190gr Fed load (XM1003A) was available recently from ammoman. I picked up 1000rds of it a little while ago before it ran out (I don’t think he has anymore). It was/is an accurate and respectable load. Personally (like you) I also liked it better than the 175gr STHP, and I too used to use & carry both based on how easily I could get my hands on them. I think I saved a 100-150 rds of the 190gr Fed stuff, so if you are looking for some "for old times sake" or to carry again, send me an IM and we can talk about me sending you some.

Unfortunately, with this statement, you are revealing how little you know about the subject.

Wow. In what way? :banghead: This is like talking to a child (and reading one’s writing I might add). Please explain to me exactly how I am "showing how I don't know what I am talking about" since you by contrast I assume have apparently been (magically?) impressing us (somehow) with your vast knowledge. All I have been doing is asking you to show us some support for your position. I have no problem with you being skeptical, but from my perspective (and from the perspective of at least one other poster here) you have been overstating the strength of your convictions and presenting them as hard facts when you have yet to explain what basis you have for settling on them. Worse yet, you are cutting down others’ attempts to provide evidence to support their positions and then not following up with offers explaining how they might better test things in the future. This is unproductive, immature, and not fit for "The High Road."

When you compare the upper-end (velocity/energy wise) .357 Magnum loads from manufacturers such as Buffalo Bore with the upper-end (again, velocity/energy wise) from manufacturers such as Double Tap, you will find that they are virtually identical (with the .357 Magnum a very, very slight, insignificant advantage in velocity/energy in most cases).

Have you done this matching up test barrel length?

On the other hand, when you look at upper-end .41 Magnum loads by Buffalo Bore, you will see that the .41 Magnum exceeds the energy levels of the hottest 10mm by roughly 50%. There truly is no comparison of the .41 Magnum to the 10mm when you compare max load to max load to max load.

No kidding. For someone who chants "Read before you post", you seemingly failed to notice that I said that 10mm was better compared to (only) warm/moderate .41 mag loads (like hunting loads commonly available by Rem for example), NOT "max loads." Wow...please take some of your own advice.

If you would like to continue your silliness, I could compare Federal 180-grain 10mm Hydra-Shok at ~1030 fps with the Speer 180-grain .40 S&W Gold Dot at ~1025 fps and point out that the 10mm competes favourably with .40 S&W.

Ok, please do. You have shown your true and transparent colors. (No you can't have my lunch money - or anyone else’s here either.) While you’re at the above, note that many currently available 10mm defense loads have been loaded to duplicate .40 loads & not loaded to their potential. Also, instead of lashing out at me and others, it would be nice if you actually addressed the questions that we have been asking of you (hint: you have to read the posts to find them). To save you the trouble, all I/we are asking is for you to show us (a) what’s your evidence and (b) how can we (or McNett for example) conduct better tests that might satisfy you. Continuing to holler and beat your chest just simply doesn’t enlighten anyone as to how you have come to your conclusions. Few if any of your current explanations directly answer these basic questions – they only repeat your conclusions. Again I will mention that I would also be interested in knowing exactly what tests you would like independent labs to conduct that would satisfy your skepticism. Clearly, the lack of "real world" LE/defense shootings with current 10mm offerings like DT is a real issue...but just because there is a relative lack of evidence both for AND against these rounds does not offer anything upon which to suggest that these rounds would not perform well. There is of course a healthy amount of LE/defense .40 data, and yes, most current & common 10mm defense loads have been produced to duplicate .40 ballistics. Perhaps this level of performance is "good enough" since most of the 'real world' .40 results are quite good. However, until you can show some compelling evidence to the contrary, I see no reason to not expect that when someone takes these same types/weights of bullets (or ones 20-40 grains heavier) and pushes them a little faster, that similar and/or perhaps (likely?) better results will follow. Further, while there is an overall lack of LE/defense use data for these new 10mm loads, many of them have been used successfully on game animals (150-200lb. deer and some black bear and other larger game) with very good results. From my perspective, it seems that if these bullets hold up this well on these larger and arguably tougher-skinned/boned animals (and yes, many of these animals were in fact shot with gold dots/golden sabers and the like as well...not just XTPs for example) I see this as fairly reasonable evidence in favor of the 10mm's potential on humans in lieu of having actual results on humans.

Also, I will note that I agree that some of DT’s loading are a little too “velocity driven”. Also, I am aware of Speer's performance windows with respect to the GDHPs. Perhaps this is why I favor 190-200gr rounds in the 10mm. Perhaps this also one reason we have been talking past one another. Of course, DT’s 200gr loads are not at the hyper-velocity of the lighter rounds he loads. That said, the .223 has a very good “1-shot-stop record” and it relies on velocity….so who knows how these would perform on humans. To me though, I can see the parallels between the hyper velocity 135-165gr. 10mm loads and the venerable 124gr Fed “B” .357 mag load (both rely on velocity and the fed JHP is not known for it's ability to remain intact upon impact).

Anyway, as we both now have said in one form or another, this bickering is getting us or this topic nowhere. I'll leave my posts stand as they are and let the jury of public opinion rule on what I have said and how it was delivered. I encourage you to do the same. If you want any of the 190gr ammo I mentioned and/or you want to continue this (civilly and like adults, I might add) via IM, please let me know.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, I see the ten as a great all arounder like the .38/.357 revolvers. If I had a reasonably light, small revolver, even a five shooter K frame maybe, it'd be a SUPER defense round gun even with hot .40s in moon clips, great outdoor gun, easy packin', ammo even at Walmart for the .40. I could see this thing as a baby mountain gun, maybe, with a little heavier bullet than possible with the .357, but the big attraction to me is moon clips.

However, the only revolver I'm aware of that was chambered for it is the N frame Smith. Too big to be carrying IMHO for self defense IWB and heavy on the belt. I'd as soon carry a .44 mountain gun and have more power. I had a nifty little Rossi revolver once, light, a little over 30 oz unloaded. It was such a handy little thing to haul around, had a full lug under the barrel, easy to shoot, quite accurate. Shoulda kept that thing, I guess. Took a Javelina with it, once, and some camp meat rabbits using .38 loads. Used to carry that thing out in west Texas on a HUGE ranch our hunting club had leased. Never slowed me down out there walking and spotting from the ridge lines. If that gun were a five shot 10mm, it'd been an AWESOME and unique revolver. Heck, I liked it in .357! I don't even remember what I traded it on. LOL

I like revolvers that use auto calibers and moon clips. I don't see the point in some of 'em, though. This hypothetical 10 would be a really neat gun. There is the 625 in .45acp. Could see that for pins maybe, not much else. My Ruger P90 is lighter and easier to carry. There are the little 9mm J frames. They're cool, but my Kel Tec is lighter, easier to conceal, accurate, and holds 11 rounds so what's the point? The 10 in a light K frame size gun would have a purpose, be unique and versatile.

 

[Greybeard]

Quote: "What makes the 10mm so special is that it can do so many different jobs exceedingly well." This quote, from a couple of pages back, pretty well summed up my decision some time ago to get a Glock 29.

Also having a .40 S&W barrel and several 15-round mags, I've found the Model 29 to be a quite versatile "tool" for various purposes - whether in the woods or in the concrete jungle.

Similar comparison to me can be made with my .454 Casull - another "tool", which at one time I believed I'd never have "need" for. The SBH can be loaded with "cowboy loads" from 250 grainers at 700 fps up to 240-grain XTPs at 2,000 fps. For the 10mm Glock 29, I've got OPTIONS rangeing from 220 grainers at just under 1000 fps to 135-grainers at over 1,500.

Whether the .40 or 10mm barrel is in the gun, it's most commonly carried with 165-grain Gold Dots. And I've yet to loose a wink of sleep over which one might be going too fast or too slow if needed in the middle of the night.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

jc2, if you expect me to believe that the Gold Dot is going to suffer a complete break down in five feet per second over its design parameters, you're really fishing. Five feet per second is probably within the standard deviation for both Mike's and Speer's load. And again, anybody can say "boo hiss" but unless you can point out exactly what Mike did wrong, your allegations aren't supported and thus, aren't important. Ballistic testing is tedious but it isn't rocket science. Provided you follow the mixing instructions for the geletin, freeze it and use it at the right temperature, and callibrate it correctly--well Mike's test shouldn't be the ballistic equivelent of programming the lander in meters.

So what we do know is that:

1. Gold Dots were designed to perform at the velocities the 10mm is capable of pushing them, or at least at the velocities some of these "boutique" manufactures load them too.

2. The Gold Dot is a well-respected premium defensive handgun bullet widely regarded for its balance of expansion and penetration.

3. Putting 1 and 2 together, I see no reason not to expect more of the same with McNett's loads.

and finally,

4. You still haven't provided any evidence to the contrary. In fact the only thing I have seen that might support your side of the story is some results from Ammolab. Then all we have is a "my jello is better than your jello" war. And me digging up a why I am skeptical of Ammolab, which I would prefer not to do.

 

[Michael Courtney]

This is simply wrong. Double tap offers a wide variety of loads including several weights using the Gold Dot, the XTP in 180 and 200 grains, and the Golden Saber in 165 grains, as well as the 135 grain Nosler. The whole range of penetration possibilities is covered with full power loads. Corbon also offers their Pow'R Ball loading in 135 grains, and Glaser offers a 115 grain load.

Nope, Mikey, you are dead wrong. The Gold Dot, Golden Sabre and Nosler bullets (bullets, Mikey, bullets) Double Tap uses are designed for the .40 S&W (and .40 S&W velocities/energy levels)--not for the 10mm. Mike McNett doesn't design or manufacture bullets (and he doesn't know how to conduct accurate ballistic gelatin testing either).

None of the major manufacturers have spent a dime on defence/LE bullets (bullets, Mikey, bullets) for the 10mm in many, many years (if ever). The 10mm was long dead as a LE/defence round long before the development of current generation, modern technology bullets.

Who cares what cartridge the bullets were designed for? Actual performance matters more than design, and gelatin results confirm my assertion that "the whole range of penetration possibilities is covered with full power loads."

Why does Speer have to design a bullet specifically for the 10mm when both in-house and independent testing shows that their .40 caliber Gold Dots penetrate very well at 10 mm velocities?

Further, I challenge your assertion that you can push a bullet to a higher velocity and have a decrease in permanent and temporary cavities if the weight retention is basically the same. Please provide references to back up your claim.

Michael Courtney

 

[JShirley]

The .357 Magnum was originally loaded much hotter than typically seen today. Compare the Buffalo Bore 180 grain from 6" barrel (1500+ fps) to original Norma ballistics: 200 grain @ 1200 fps or 165 grain @ 1360 fps from 5" barrel.

The .357 Magnum, loaded to potential, is still considerably more powerful than the 10mm.

I like the 10mm, but it is not a .357 (or even, its twin, unless you compare a weakly loaded .357 with a stoutly loaded 10mm), and it certainly does not equal the .41 Magnum in the real world.

I personally would prefer to see the 9x23mm Winchester in a carbine. Yummy!

John

 

[MCgunner]

If they fed well and were accurate without leading, I'd shoot hard cast, perhaps gas checked SWCs in the ten anyway for outdoor use. If you had to shoot a bear, that'd be the bullet I'd think for penetration. It's already a .40, expansion less important in a bear. I've examined enough SWC wound channels from my .357 carbine in deer to be a believer in them for outdoor use. I see the 10 as an outdoor caliber, but if you don't mind the muzzle flip and flash, too much expansion is not a problem in human targets. I mean, how deep are the vitals on a human? You think the 10 won't reach 'em?

With a matching .40 barrel, I'd likely carry the thing with .40s anyway for self defense. That sounds like a really good system. I don't want an over-penetrating bullet in a PDW. I mean, in Texas, the shooter is responsible for what that bullet does when it exits the target. If it goes through three grandmas and a baby, well, you're in some DEEP stuff! Frangibles are a good thing if you can make 'em feed and they'll shoot accurate. I don't like frangibles in autos, though, because I don't have Bill Gates' expense account and I won't shoot an auto that hasn't proven reliable for several hundred rounds.

That's another plus for the revolver in personal defense.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

The .357 Magnum, loaded to potential, is still considerably more powerful than the 10mm.

Using what ammo?

Actually I suppose that depends on what you consider "considerably more powerful." But with similar barrel lengths and bullet weights, the 10mm Auto and the .357 Magnum produce similar velocities--enough so that any energy advantage held by the .357 could arguably be made up for with the 10mm's greater diameter.

From Buffalo Bore's website:

.357 Magnum, 5" barrel
180 gr Hardcast @ 1398 fps
158 gr Speer Unicore @ 1457 fps
125 gr Speer Unicore @ 1543 fps

10mm Auto, 5" barrel
180 gr Speer Unicore @ 1350 fps
200 gr FMJ FN @ 1200 fps

From Double Tap's website:

.357 Magnum, 4" barrel
158 gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400 fps
125 gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1600 fps

10mm Auto, 4.6" barrel
180 gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300 fps
165 gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400 fps
135 gr JHP @ 1600 fps

So unless you have a source that loads the .357 Magnum much hotter or are trying to compare a carbine length rifle to an automatic handgun, then the round is comparible with the 10mm Auto. Actually, with how I understand barrel lengths are measured, the Double Tap loads are actually closer to equal barrel lengths but we'll ignore that for the purpose of this argument because hey, I am willing to let 50 fps or so go to get 2 to 3 times the magazine capacity and a little bit more diameter.

I may come across as an unrealistically zealous 10mm Auto fan. But that is only partially true. I am willing to admit that the 10mm Auto may not be perfect, at least not for everyone. I just don't want it to be short changed or presented unfairly. I feel this is how it got to where it is today--which I feel is grossly under-appreciated. That is why I am trying to make people support allegations against the 10mm. I really don't care what you people carry. I just feel like if someone is going to say something negative about my choice, it should be grounded in something solid.

 

[warriorsociologist]

The .357 Magnum was originally loaded much hotter than typically seen today. Compare the Buffalo Bore 180 grain from 6" barrel (1500+ fps) to original Norma ballistics: 200 grain @ 1200 fps or 165 grain @ 1360 fps from 5" barrel.

The .357 Magnum, loaded to potential, is still considerably more powerful than the 10mm.

I like the 10mm, but it is not a .357 (or even, its twin, unless you compare a weakly loaded .357 with a stoutly loaded 10mm), and it certainly does not equal the .41 Magnum in the real world.

I personally would prefer to see the 9x23mm Winchester in a carbine. Yummy!

John

How about a 9x25 carbine?


Also, I still think the 10mm can "hang" and then some with the .357 when you even out the barrel lengths. Here are a few of DT's loads from a 6" KKM G20 barrel:

200gr XTP - 1344fps
200gr FMJ-FP - 1369fps
200gr WFN Beartooth - 1412fps (that's 886 ft/lbs by may calculations)
*Also, the BT loads are BHN 21 (22 initial hardness, ages to BHN 21 after 18 months & stays there) so they are VERY clean/no leading.

Also, you can carry 15+1 of them vs. 6 or 7 (That said, I love wheelguun and I still carry my 6" 686-4 as a whitetail gun on occasion too (with the very 180gr BB loads you mention).

Now, I also know that most common .41 loads are way under their potential. Perhaps we could think of the 10mm as a rimless ".41 special"? Consider that a .41 magnum (with admittedly mild factory Remington 210gr. loads) generates “only” 788ft/lbs. per shot (this is from a 4" revolver I think).

 

[Nail Shooter]

by warriorsociologist:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc2
"Again (still), you are focusing on one issue--hunting--while my remarks have been directed in another direction--LE/defense. The 10mm is an adequate low-end hunting round for medium game (up to whitetail-size). It is in the same class as the .357 Magnum (actually it is the ballistic twin of the .357 Magnum--the 10mm is really the bottom feeder equivalent of the .357 Magnum)."

Please explain to me how this is irrelevant to other areas (like LE/defense)?
************************************************

Pretty good rationalization by warriorsociologist I'd say. I personally own numerous handguns in 357, 9, 10, 44, and 45. The G20, 10mm would be my "go to" gun in a bad situation--especially if I had time to pick any gun that I owned. Nothing seems to match it as a good all around performer, and it is esp advantageous in the capacity dept. There's plenty of good ammo out there, only one person in this thread seems to be obsessed about the origins of the 40 cal pills loaded by Double Tap.

It's kind of like that saying "If it positively has to be destroyed in the shortest possible time, send in the Marines"--just substitute 10mm for Marines.

 

[warriorsociologist]

:
Quote:
It's kind of like that saying "If it positively has to be destroyed in the shortest possible time, send in the Marines"--just substitute 10mm for Marines.

LOL. Semper Fi!

 

[VirgilCaine]

Also having a .40 S&W barrel and several 15-round mags, I've found the Model 29 to be a quite versatile "tool" for various purposes - whether in the woods or in the concrete jungle.

Let me see if I understand this--the [Glock] 29 can take the .40 with a barrel-switch, and there are 15-round mags for the 29...nifty.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Let me see if I understand this--the [Glock] 29 can take the .40 with a barrel-switch, and there are 15-round mags for the 29...nifty.

Actually that is an unexplored realm of the Glock 10mms that hasn't been brought up here. While the 10mm Auto can be loaded to a wide variety of tasks in these pistols as they come, the ability to take aftermarket barrels and components adds even more. Simply by changing barrels, and in some cases spring weights, you can fire the 10mm Auto, 9x25, .40 Smith and Wesson, and .357 SIG out of your Glock 20 or 29. Since they are all based on roughly the same case, I don't believe you even need to change magazines. If you want to shop around Lonewolf Distributors, you can find a 6 inch slide and barrel for your Glock 20 to give you a little bit more velocity and you can choose barrel lengths from standard 4.6", in the case of the Glock 20, to 5.5" from the standard slide--allowing you a lot of leeway in how you want your pistol set up for a specific task. You can have a 6 inch slide and 10mm Auto barrel loaded with 200 gr hardcast projectiles and equipped with a red dot sight for hogs and deer, then slap on the standard slide and barrel and a Surefire, load the pistol up with 135 gr JHPs and be set for home defense. If you decide you want to turn money into noise but don't want to go through as much money as noise, you can slap a standard length .40 S&W barrel in it and pick up a couple boxes of WWB from the local Wally-World on the way to the range. And you can explore other cartridge options on a whim. If you decide even the 135 grainers in the 10mm don't offer enough velocity for you, slap in a 6 inch BarSto chambered for the 9x25 and shoot some 115 gr Gold Dots out at 1800 fps. That load is, admittedly, probably well beyond the threshold the bullet was designed to perform at, but if all you want to some varmint or small game disposal or a change to blow up some water bottles--it'd do the trick. Point is, that is a lot of options and we haven't even discussed buying the Glock 21 slide and barrel from Lonewolf, which allows us to further explore the .400 Corbon and .45 Super with varying barrel lengths and a couple 13 round Glock 21 mags. And none of this requires more effort than field stripping your pistol and swapping barrels, recoil assemblies, and/or slides. Admitting that at $150 bucks a pop for the barrels, $20 a pop for the magazines, and $10 a pop for the springs, as well as several hundred for the individual slides, this system could get expensive in a hurry, you still have to admit that regardless of your impression of the Glock or the 10mm Auto, to those of us that fit the pistol and cartridge well, that is a lot of versitility.

 

[JOE MACK]

Why the 10mm?

Well, because it's the closest thing to the .41Magnum I can shoot in a reasonable-sized semi-auto handgun. My DE is NOT a reasonably-sized semi. I don't bother with 10mm revolvers 'cause I've got a lot of .41Magnums and it would be a major step down in power. I've got a Glock 20, Glock 29, and two custom 1911s. I'm thinking about the Kimber now that it's on Kaliforniastan's "safety" list. If Coonan would have put out enough .41Magnums that I could've glombed onto one... Now, if they made semi-autos for a rimless .41, I'd dump my 10mms in a heartbeat.

 

[JohnKSa]

Let me see if I can summarize...

The 41 Magnum is obviously better than the 10mm based on having much higher velocity and energy compared to the 10mm. In fact "there truly is no comparison".

But the 10mm isn't any better than the .40S&W even though it has much higher velocity and energy compared to the .40S&W. In fact its performance is actually suspect due to its having higher velocity and energy.

 

[cz75bdneos22]

+1 MTMilitiaman...
good points...
that's why i settled on G20...

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Let me see if I can summarize...

The 41 Magnum is obviously better than the 10mm based on having much higher velocity and energy compared to the 10mm. In fact "there truly is no comparison".

But the 10mm isn't any better than the .40S&W even though it has much higher velocity and energy compared to the .40S&W. In fact its performance is actually suspect due to its having higher velocity and energy.

If you believe what you hear

Personally, if I wanted anything more than the 10mm it would be as a designated hunting handgun and I would be willing to sacrifice versitility to get more accuracy and power at a longer range from something like a Ruger in .44 Mag--.41 Mag wouldn't even be a consideration. If I wanted something less than the 10mm for self defense, well I can't personally really explain why I would do such a thing but suffice to say my choice wouldn't be the .40 Smith and Wesson.

 

[Guns_and_Labs]

If I wanted something less than the 10mm for self defense, well I can't personally really explain why I would do such a thing but suffice to say my choice wouldn't be the .40 Smith and Wesson.

While I happily carry a 10mm in the 'burbs or the woods, I think it's a bit much for the urban scene. To each his own, but I find a BHP in 9mm gives me enough cumulative power with less risk of overpenetration. And you can't beat a Kahr P9 for pure concealability. Yes, they have .40's in each model, but I'm already downloading, so I might as well go down to a 9mm that I can reliably get to make a doubletap/headshot combo. YMMV.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

While I happily carry a 10mm in the 'burbs or the woods, I think it's a bit much for the urban scene. To each his own, but I find a BHP in 9mm gives me enough cumulative power with less risk of overpenetration. And you can't beat a Kahr P9 for pure concealability. Yes, they have .40's in each model, but I'm already downloading, so I might as well go down to a 9mm that I can reliably get to make a doubletap/headshot combo. YMMV.

Fair enough. I don't personally CCW and even if I did would probably opt for a 10mm or .45. If overpenetration was a serious concern I would look into the 135 gr Nosler JHPs and sleep well but to each his own. I breifly consider the Kahr myself but after seeing a recent advertising campaign of theirs opted against it. Even if I did go with something less right now it would probably be a Glock 26 9mm.

 

[Devonai]

I've been wondering about the .40 barrels for the Glock 20/29. Do the rounds stay seated properly in the 10mm magazines or can they shift forward? If they do shift to the front of the magazine, can that have a detrimental effect on feeding?

Also, where can I find out more about the 9x25mm?

 

[MachIVshooter]

The .357 Magnum was originally loaded much hotter than typically seen today. Compare the Buffalo Bore 180 grain from 6" barrel (1500+ fps) to original Norma ballistics: 200 grain @ 1200 fps or 165 grain @ 1360 fps from 5" barrel.

The .357 Magnum, loaded to potential, is still considerably more powerful than the 10mm.

Do remember that a 6" magnum revolver vs. a 5" auto is an additional ~2.5" of barrel. You could probably consider it an extra 1.5-2", once you factor in pressure loss form the cylinder gap, depending on the revolver (S&W's are damn tight!). So whe one considers that, and the fact that a hot 10mm load will gain 35-50 FPS per inch (within reason) they are truly equal with top loads. *this is not unfounded, as I have done extensive chronographing of dozens of loads from my 3.5" Witness Compact and 5" Kimber and S&W 1006, as well as from my various .357's*

Also, some .357 loads that were topping 800 ft/lbs (various primer/powder/bullet combo's) required smacking the ejector on the truck tailgate to get the shells out. No bueno! Some 158 grain loads that came in at 814 ft/lbs created a small crack at the bottom of the forcing cone on my Security-Six stainless. I scrapped the remainder of those loads. The only .357 loads that will equal my top 10mm loads from a 4" revolver that aren't overpressure are using 110 grain pills, which I consider far too light for reliable performance/penetration at such extreme velocities. I stick to loading most .357 rounds to develop ~600 ft/lbs from 4" barrels. OTOH, I've had no issues whatsoever with my 790 ft/lb 10mm loads. I've even been able to load the Remington Nickel brass 5 and 6 times at such pressures.

I like the 10mm, but it is not a .357 (or even, its twin, unless you compare a weakly loaded .357 with a stoutly loaded 10mm), and it certainly does not equal the .41 Magnum in the real world.


John

The reason this comparison is so frequently made is that the average off-the-shelf .41 mag load is only in the 750-800 ft/lb arena from 4"-6" guns, which is totally obtainable by a 5" 10mm. Most of us are aware that there are .41 mag loads besting 1,150 ft/lbs. But the average winchester/remington/federal .41 mag loads are not all that impressive. And again, these super .41 loads are coming out of a 7.5" tube. Barrel length matters!

Along these lines, a 4" wheelgun is very comparable to a 5" bottom-feeder for velocity.

As to the bullet design argument, with Speer being cited so much on the GD I will only mention that they make 180 and 200 grain bullets that they do not load in factory ammunition, so the claim that they are designed for Speer's own .40 loads is null and void. Also, the Remington Gold Sabre 180 performs extremely well at 1,400 FPS.

PENETRATION:

In this department, the 10mm is unsurpassed by other autopistol cartridges, sans the .45 win mag, .50 AE, etc. I got hold of some 1/2" ballistic lexan and decided to do some testing. We cut it into 6"x8" pieces and then screwed the peices together in pairs for a total of 1" We had enough 1" thick pairs to test a single round of each load. First, rifles. Even a 35 gr. V-max out of a .22 Hornet punched through 2 layers at 100 yards like nobody's business. Anyway, testing was done with .380 90 gr., 9mm 115, 9mm 124, .40 155, .40 165, .45 200, .45 230, .357 125 JHP, .357 158 JSP, 10mm 180 and 10mm 200 (all are FMJ except the noted .357 rounds, and all were stout handloads). .45 (both loads) and .380 did not even get through the first sheet. The .357 158 grainers nearly got through, cracking the back of the second sheet. The 9mm loads were lodged in the rear sheet. The .40 loads were stuck between sheets, bulging the rear sheet a bit. Only the 10mm loads punched both 1/2" sheets completely (and lodged 2" into the rail road tie behind). I did try some factory 10mm 180 grain Black Talons just for the helluvit. They performed similarly to the 155 gr. FMJ .40 loads. Bottom line: the 10mm is a penetrating SOB. Since handguns have a rather lowsy reputation in this department anyway, I'd rather take any advantage I can get.

We also tried a 325 gr. Speer JHP .50 AE load at 1520 FPS and a 240 gr. XTP-JHP 454 Casull load at 1915 FPS on the extra couple pieces. I can't say if the actually penetrated the lexan, since the stuff blew into many peices on impact with these two rounds .

I also carry my 1006 with 180 grain GSHP's while hunting, in case I jump a deer and do not have time to unsling my rifle.