12 ga Green Dot and Red Dot loads please...

[RoostRider]

Been reloading for what seems forever.... well over 20 years...

Started small (Lee hand dies) and moved up and up and up... now running a Dillon 550, Lee Turret and a MEC shotshell loader....

I never got into loading shot much, just basically set it all up years ago, cranked out some basic rounds and left it on the bench.

Well, I went and made some good rounds the other day to try out... 209 primer, 1 1/8oz 8 shot with 22.4 grains of Green Dot under the Remington wads (RXP12??)... (A bit under the loads listed in my data)... loading into Federal low brass ribbed plastic (Champion?)...

I went and shot them today and they worked well... but they clearly weren't the equivalent of a good hot game load...

I am looking for a good load for Grouse in dense woods (needs some ompf)...
I have Green Dot and Red Dot available (as well as a couple others I can't recall right now)
I have 6,7 and 8 shot available
I would like a good hot load for game such as this

I have noticed, in my manuals, that they are very sure to state not only the case but the primer and wad as well.... not sure how big of a deal the wad and case actually are, but I have a LOT of different shells around, and varied primers and wads, some of which aren't in my data at all, and finding a recipe with all the components I have is difficult, not to mention my data only shows one load for each setup (primer, case and wad)

I want something somewhat universal in the demands for the exact case, wad and primer...

I have all the bushings and shot bars for the MEC, so I should be able to put together just about any load I want...

Any help.....

BTW- if you are giving anywhere near max loads PLEASE STATE SO IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS!!!

 

[NuJudge]

Everything's critical in shotgun

The pressure range you want is rather narrow, and all the components stacked in the case have to fill it precisely. If the stack is not right, you get crimps that don't quite close, or are dished way in, and either way dribble shot. Some brands of cases can crush at the bottom if things are not stacked right.

I've been using IMR700X for some years because I bought a lot of it cheap. Before that I used Red Dot with no complaints.

I like #7 for doves, #6 shot for grouse, and #5 for pheasant. Go with published data and use the specified wad, powder, primer and size shot. A lighter shot charge of larger shot moving at at a normal velocity gets the job done. Alliant's data is here:

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeList.aspx?gauge=12&gtypeid=3

 

[Bailey Boat]

Be VERY cautious changing any component in a listed load as it can and WILL shoot pressures through the roof. In my opinion you should ditch the "mixed bag" of components and settle on a load that is running about 1200 fps and giving even patterns over some "hot rod" hunting load. Faster isn't always better, it's pattern size/density that kills........ Also, Green Dot is a fairly high pressure powder to begin with so be careful doing anything to raise that.......

 

[RoostRider]

thanks for the replies guys...

I think I have data for most of the components I have, just not all together in some instances....

I was hoping I could substitute parts, but I guess that isn't likely....

What do you guys do when you have to switch a component? Use new data or adjust your worked up loads?

 

[Steve C]

What do you guys do when you have to switch a component? Use new data or adjust your worked up loads?

There is no work up with shotgun loading. You cook book to the manual with exact components listed including primer. Its best to standardize on a single type case or two. I've always like Winchester AA's but have loaded Remingtons and Federals. The thing to remember is that the brass height is not important, its the case type and length. All Winchester compression formed cases have the same volume so they can be loaded with the same data. For example you can load all AA shells the same way for hunting or target regardless if they're Super X hunting hulls or AA target hulls.

I never felt the need for a special Grouse load in the days when I lived in WA and there was Grouse to hunt. I simply loaded the same 1-1/8oz load I used for trap with around 18.2 grs of Red Dot (from memory). Shooting was close in woods hunting and I'd killed them with both 7-1/2 and 6 shot from my old Winchester model 12 with modified choke.

 

[RoostRider]

LOL... that was my next question... "well then, how do you work up a load?".... lol

Thanks....

For the record- I don't feel like I need a hotter load to get Grouse.... just, since I have the ability to make hotter loads for no extra cost (aside from a little powder), I thought it would be nice to have one with a little more penetration through the leaves and heavy underbrush.

I usually try to use high powered game loads when I buy, but I have used trap loads with success as well.... trap loads go for about $6 a box and game loads $12 a box around here (considerable difference).

Looking at my manuals, there is very little difference between what they call a 'trap' load and a 'game' load.... but with purchased ammo there is a considerable difference... and my produced ammo in game load did not seem as powerful as the factory game loads (albeit without any scientific testing, but it was noticeable)

I was hoping someone here had worked up a better load than what is listed in my manuals....

Thanks for all the input guys

 

[rcmodel]

Going to a 1 1/4 field load, rather then making the 1 1/8 load go faster will probably work better.
Having more shot in the pattern to get through the brush might insure more of it will make it to the target.

I long ago settled on two hunting loads for upland game.

A 1 1/8 oz #8 trap load for quail, and a 1 1/4 oz #5 field load for pheasant, prairie chicken, and anything else.

Both about the same velocity on each, so the amount of lead & follow through doesn't change when changing loads. If you can hit with one, you can hit with the other.

As has already been noted, there is no "standard" shotgun load that will work with all hulls & components.
What the book says for the hull you have is what you should use.

rc

 

[fecmech]

Roostrider--The only effective way to get extra energy downrange with shotshells is more shot or heavier shot. Extra velocity is a losing proposition with round pellets going supersonic. As an example # 6 shot at 1200 fps reaches 40 yds going 662 fps. The same #6 shot at 1400 fps gets to 40 yds at 725 fps. At your shoulder you really feel like you are projecting power but at the bird a 63 fps advantage doesn't mean much! Recoil at 1400 fps and 1 1/8 oz of shot is 32 ft lbs, recoil at 1200 fps is 21 ft lbs. Factories want you to think grand things are happening with the high dollar loads.

 

[RoostRider]

Hmmmm... interesting...

To be honest I understand some of the physical issues that might result in such 'dimished returns', but I don't have a really strong grasp on that.

I have reloaded for a long time, but as mentioned, my experience in shot is very limited. I had not considered the differences and assumed that you just work up a load like you do with a rifle or pistol. I also assumed that the harder it thumped the better the penetration (all other things being equal). Which is true, minus the diminishing returns you state I assume.

So, do tell, what is a generally accepted 'good' velocity for 6-8 shot?

Will different velocities produce radically different shot patterns (all other things being equal)?

Will different cases produce different shot patterns (all other things being equal)?

I assume different wads will....

And I would assume different primers will not.... which, I might as well ask now... is a Federal 209 the same as a Winchester 209 and/or a CCI 209.... and how does a 157 differ.... (geez, this is an adventure in and of itself)

Straighten me out if I'm wrong here....

Sounds like I was right in taking the conservative course here.... that was the experienced reloader in me.... lol

The load I produced was .6g shy of the published data I was using... all the components were spot on... but it almost seems as if I was just lucky to have all the right parts to make one of the loads listed in my manuals.... even the Alliant website referenced earlier doesn't have data for all the components I used.... *sigh*

I have a LOT of different kinds of cases.... 4 different kinds of wads.... 3 different primers.... many different powders... :banghead: ... that's gonna be a pain to deal with... been collecting shells for 15 years... lol... but seldom the same as before... Got primers whenever it seemed like a good time (way before the crunch)...

I have lots of different powders, but I got the Red Dot and Green Dot specifically for shot, so I'd like to use that.... are these good powders to use for shot?

Geez, I really had no idea shot was so picky...

 

[Bailey Boat]

Rider, I agree that it seems confusing and the same basics that apply to metallics seem to go out the window when dealing with shotshells but I would suggest you purchase or borrow a specific shotshell manual and only load the specific loads listed.
I have been loading both shotshell and metallics for 40 years and have never produced a load that wasn't in print in one of my many manuals. I wish you were close to me in NC and I could be of more help.

 

[Remo-99]

I also assumed that the harder it thumped the better the penetration (all other things being equal).

RoostRider, using a scattergun is not about penetration(most of the time).
Dense and even patterns within range is more important.(correct shotsize used will give the needed penetration).
Pushing shot too hard will deform it in the barrel and destroy patterns. Where as larger shot weights of standard velocity offer better pattern density, as well as help cut through the brush/twigs etc. in the way of your quarry.

 

[fecmech]

Roostrider--Tell me what components you have exactly,primer,wad, hull and I know you have Red and Green Dot. I have a lot of shotshell data maybe I can help. Nick

 

[Steve C]

So, do tell, what is a generally accepted 'good' velocity for 6-8 shot?

If you go to the Remington Web site Upland loads and click on the box of the type of shell you will see that most 12ga will run from 1,200 fps to just under 1,300 fps. The Nitro loads, or baby magnums run a little over 1,400 fps. For lead 1,400 fps is about the maximum velocity you can push it before the patterns blow leaving a big center hole as the wad pushes through the shot column.

Will different velocities produce radically different shot patterns (all other things being equal)?

Generally the higher the velocity the more open the pattern with the same wad.

Will different cases produce different shot patterns (all other things being equal)?

They case shouldn't make the difference, its the wad and the velocity. The case changes the load though to achieve a given velocity.

And I would assume different primers will not.... which, I might as well ask now... is a Federal 209 the same as a Winchester 209 and/or a CCI 209....

There is no "same as". Change in primer can change load so check the manual.

I have a LOT of different kinds of cases.... 4 different kinds of wads....

Sort your cases into type and brand. Keep the ones that will work with the wads you have and get rid of the rest. Field case from cheap ammo will not give you more than a reload or two as they'll split at the folds. Trap loads and those type cases, AA's, and the Remington of Federal equivalents will take 10 or more loadings. Paper hulls you can get perhaps 6 before they burn out at the bottom.