12 ga slug blooper problems

[Cliff Roberts]

Well... this is embarrassing...

I've reloaded brass for about a decade now but I'm only 2-ish months in with reloading shotgun hulls so please keep in mind I may be unfamiliar with some of the terminology... (I think I've delayed the inevitable long enough)

BACKGROUND: I've started loading for 12 ga after buying a couple new shotguns. Mostly #4 buckshot with about 400 successful reloads and some birdshot with about 250 successful loads. However, given that factory slug prices are... elevated... Slugs are the main thing I wanted to reload.

I'm using a Lee Load-All 2 press and a Lyman 525gr diabolo slug, WAA12 wad, longshot powder with an overpowder card (about .030 thickness), and mostly fed cases. Primers are varied based on what I can get (finding primers still sucks around here) but, right now, I'm breaking into the case of CCI 209As I bought about 2 years ago after getting my first in-line. I was using Federal primers previously and experiencing the same issue, hence the switch. According to the lyman manual I'm using, max load is about 37gr (which was a little hot for the old JC Higgins and Savage 820B so that load got dropped to 33.7gr) and, depending on whether the hull was a range pickup or new, a 6- or 8-fold crimp (which is recommended by the book... luckily... since I haven't made/bought a roll crimper).

PROBLEM: I've been experiencing what I've seen described as "bloopers" in common nomenclature in about 40% of my loads described above. Specifically, the primer will ignite but is either not thoroughly burning the powder or not igniting the powder at all. This results in the slug/wad exiting the barrel at a VERY slow velocity (thankfully no squibs) and, upon ejection of the hull, the unburned powder dumps out of the hull into the barrel and action of the shotgun and/or on the ground. I have not had this issue using Nitro 100NF, HS6, Green Dot, or Unique. I have not tried Blue Dot (because I can't find it). I don't have enough experience reloading with the shotgun to try to work up a load outside of the recommended data that I have and, currently, longshot is the only powder I can find with data for the slug I'm using.

TROUBLESHOOTING: I verified that the powder hasn't been contaminated (going as far as opening another lb from a different batch to verify and still getting bloopers), no moisture in the cards or hulls (range hulls are not washed but they are left to dry in an old air-dryer like I do with my wet-tumbled brass), and no change between once-fired Hulls or new hulls bought from Ballisticproducts.

WEIRD OBSERVATION: I have noticed that a couple of the ones that "feel" full pressure may still occasionally have unburned powder in the hulls upon extraction. The partially ignited loads have a really funky odor that's difficult to describe.

QUESTION: Is it reasonable to think that the bloopers are a result from irregular powder compression using the card (as I don't seem to recall having bloopers prior to using cards with this powder but the powder-leaching was resulting in poor consistency in placement and velocity) or is that charge just potentially just too light resulting in poor pressure/ignition (as I dont seem to recall any bloopers in the 20 or so slugs loaded at 37 gr either)?

If time permits, I hope to get back out to the range tomorrow and try a few rounds loaded up to 35 gr to see if that helps alleviate some of the bloopers.

TL;DR: I am a newbie... getting poor ignition... send help... maybe the marines...thank you!

 

[entropy]

The lee load all is NOT the press to be loading slugs with; you're better off with a a MEC 600 Jr., or the MEC 250, which was designed for loading slugs. Despite what you may have heard, slugs are always best roll crimped.

 

[Cliff Roberts]

Any reason why the lee load all wouldn't be appropriate for slugs? I know there are better options but this one (other than feeling a bit like a toy) seems to be doing as needed. Unless something with the lee is contributing to the malfunctions? Which would lead back to my question regarding inconsistent compression.

Originally, I had considered roll crimping but ended up going with a star crimp after receiving the loading book in the mail which specifically states to use a fold crimp on this particular slug. Heck, I've still got the roll crimper I was making chucked up in the lathe - albeit I've yet to grind an appropriate trepanning tool... I hate grinding hss...

 

[Howa 9700]

Sounds to me like you have mismatched components. Federal is a straight walled hull. WAA12 wads are for tapered hulls like Win or Rem. If you found this in some published load data, your load data is already suspect.

But Go back and explain this WAA12 wad again. An actual WAA12 or one of the clones, like a Clay Buster? If the Clay Buster version, does it have vertical ribs running up the center of the wad petals? If it has the ribs, when you insert a slug into the shot cup, do the petals splay out to the sides?

And explain this over powder card too. Where is it going? Between the powder and wad?

 

[MEHavey]

Get rid of that over-powder wad to start.
If's preventing the WAA12 cup/base from sealing the hull under pressure

(As noted above the shot cup mismatched to the hull. But that over-powder
wad is making failure to seal 10X worse)

 

[Akula69]

I agree with the mismatched components. A straight hull and a tapered wad will not get you where you want to be.

While many have poo-poo'd the Lee load all, I have had great success with it and 1oz slugs in a Federal hull using the Ballistic Products helix wad. I use the Ballistic Products X10X gas seal over HS-6 powder with a 1/4 inch 12ga cork spacer under the wad, and a 20ga 1/8 inch spacer over the slug and a fold crimp. I am achieving fps readings similar to the factory loaded Federal LEO slug load (with the noticeable 'Kicks like a mule' from my Remington 870). While the shell is accurate at 50 yards, I set up this shell as a home defense round and only required accuracy out to 35 feet.

And incidentally, these components are a published load from Ballistic...I did switch powder and grain weight (and had the load pressure tested as well). Your results may vary, and please wear your seatbelt while the vehicle is in motion.

 

[Cliff Roberts]

Good info! Thank you! To answer some of the questions:

On the "federal gold metal plastic cases" page, the book called for waa12 when using 800x powder but waa12f114 wads when using longshot. I couldn't get the f114s at my local shop but they had the clay buster "cb1118-12" waa12 replacement wads so I thought those may work. They do not have the ribs in the petals (at least the ones I've been using. I have another batch of wads that do but they didn't seem like what I needed). I also have the clay buster wtw-12 replacement wads but didn't see load data for them so I was just using them for shot.

Regarding placement of the card, it is going between the powder and the wad; I decap the hull, prime it, dump the powder, place a 12ga nitro card in the hull (just the cards I use in my BP shotguns), seat the card using the priming ram, set the hull in the loading dock, and load the wad with the slug already inside it. The ram moves the wad and slug down until I get resistance and then I give it a couple of "black powder taps" wit the ram. When I was having leeching issues, this was a recommendation I saw on YouTube.

So... this is all sounding like a "sealing" issue from what I'm hearing. So, given the info, what kind of wad should I be looking at using? 12S4?

 

[JO JO]

i load the lyman 525 with longshot using new fiocchi hulls without any issues , I also only roll crimp my slug loads
I do not put a card between the powder and wad also after you crimp is the shell tight or is there play / rattle inside the hull
I do put a card between the wad and slug

 

[Cliff Roberts]

Without the card, I was getting some rattle from the powder leaching up into the wad stack. With the card, everything is solid as a brick.

Looks like you're using a 12s4 wad in that picture?

 

[Howa 9700]

Was as feared. First and foremost, ditch the card. The base cup on the plastic wad is all that is needed. I do not have the Lyman 525 slugs, so don't know how they stack up in relation to shot cups. Wad numbers that end in 14 are intended for 1 1/4 oz payloads. Neither the WinAA or Federal 12S4 are available. The clones of same don't have the same sized shot cup, so scratch that too. But in any case, a Win AA tapered wad is a loose fit in a straight wall hull. Both expanding gas and powder will fly past it, leaving you with a blooper due to unburnt powder and escaping gas. Longshot is fine enough as is (compared to say Blue Dot, Herco, etc) so the fit of the wad has to be tight or powder will migrate past it.

You might try the CB6118-12 wad, with shot cup sized for 1 1/8 oz payloads. If the stack height works out, you may be OK.

Option B is to stick with what you have, but switch to a Win AA or Rem Gun Club / STS / Nitro hull.

 

[entropy]

As Akula69 points out, good slug loads can be done on a Lee Load All, it's just harder to do. And as several have pointed out, yous main problems are using a tapered hull wad (WAA-12) in a Riefenheiser type hull, and putting a card underneath it to prevent the meager seal usually achieved with that set up.
I agree with Howa 9700, switch to a tapered hull, and ditch the over powder card.

 

[Howa 9700]

These are Lee 7/8 oz slugs in a clear Fiocchi hull. Wad is a CB6118-12 (no ribs), with 20 gauge nitro card in bottom of cup to get the stack height right. Your Lyman slug may fit right without the nitro card. Also note this used Green Dot large flake powder and there is still a bit of powder that has migrated.

A Federal Top Gun hull would load the same. A true Gold Medal may not for a folded crimp as these are, but a rolled crimp should be OK.

 

[Cliff Roberts]

@Howa 9700 and @entropy yup, I think that seems to be the case based on general consensus. It would also explain why I only had that issue in my slug load and not the shot or buck loads (I keep everything color coordinated based on what's in it and the hulls I'm using for buckshot, after learning and looking, are tapered and the skeet shot I loaded up used CB 12s3 with ribs in the fiocchi hulls)

Thanks for the heads up on the correct wad! I think I'll see if I can't find a bag of those next time I get down to the gun shop. Otherwise, I'll have to order some from Ballisticproducts. I think that, just because federal tend to be the most available hull, particularly as range pickups, I'll keep a bunch of these wads on hand but, in the future, I'll try to swap to tapered hulls just because tapered wads are the most widely available at my gun shop.

This has been particularly helpful, thank you!

 

[243winxb]

Match the case with the correct wad.

Claybuster Shotshell Wads 12 Gauge CB1114-12 (Replaces WAA12F114) 1-1/4 oz​

I load the Lee slug, so not much help.

 

[NMexJim]

I've read through your posts and made some notes. Hopefully, I've got your components right. If not, let me know.

Let's start w/ wads. I have Lyman 5th in front of me and am looking at 525 Lyman with a Federal Gold Medal Case. Note that Federal Plastic Hunting Cases have a bit different recipe.
Anyway, for the Gold Medal, a WAA12F114 wad is called for. You were sold a CB1118-12 which is not the crossover you want. The CB1118-12 is a cross for a WAA12 wad. There is a difference. What you want in Claybuster is a CB1114-12 wad.

I cannot calculate how many Claybuster wads I've used. I don't load slug, but I sure load buckshot. I load for skeet, 5-stand, and Sporting Clays not to mention birds of all stripes. I've used factory and then Claybuster and have found no difference that I can tell. I've also used a lot of Ballistic Products wads, but their price is stiff.

I have no trouble following Lyman to the letter tapered hull or straight; If they have published it, then they have tested it. Don't worry about straight or taper hulls. Just follow the recipe to the letter.

One of the problems w/ buckshot and slug wads is that there is not as much of a demand for them so the local shops often don't carry a full selection. For specialty loads like buckshot and slugs, it's better to get exactly what you need even if you have to ship it in. Following shotgun recipes to the letter is really important.

The CB118-12 is for 1 to 1 5/8 loads while the CB1114-12 is for 1 1/8 to 1 1/4. There will be some differences in wad length. I think this is your main problem.

Further, in the Gold Medal Lyman recipe, no card is called for. I'm sure you're trying to make the components you have on hand work, but I would not advise doing that.

In the Federal Hunting case, for 525 Lyman a Federal 12S4 wad is called for. Claybuster does not make a crossover for that hull which is too bad because Claybuster is cheaper and gives more wads in a bag.

You mentioned 37 grains of Longshot which I can find in neither recipe. The Gold Medal calls for 39 grains and the Federal Plastic call for 36 grains. You mentioned that the 37 grains were too strout and that you dropped down to 33.7 grains. Shotgun loads are not like, say, pistol loads. You really can't change the charge. Not at your level anyway. After a lot of years, I still do not vary charge weights in birdshot. I don't have to - there is lots of loading recipes available. I have messed with buckshot charge, but that's because there is not a huge amount of info available on speciality loads. I do so very carefully, and I talk to folks who do load a lot of such stuff.

Finally, l want to give you a couple of resources. Join the link below. Introduce yourself and let them know your level of experience much as you did here. Over on the right top is a drop-down menu for the forums. There is one for shotshell reloading. Ask for some assistance there. Great folks.

https://www.shotgunworld.com/

Second, Ballistic Products had manuals on buckshot and slugs although they are geared to their products, there is enough there to justify buying their manuals. I buy my powder and shot cards there. Their catalog is handy. You could well find an alternative load with them. Look their products over, get your ducks together, and give them a call.

Shotshell reloading supplies, components, & accessories: Ballistic Products

Good luck and be safe.

 

[NMexJim]

One more small addition. When seating wads on powder columns, you need to be sure you've got the wad on the top of the powder. Not packed down on top tightly, but at least a light "firmly". On my 9000 and 600 presses, I used a light spring pressure indication. If you need, cut a section of wood dowel and push some wads down on powder to get a feel. I do that for buckshot loads. Those are done almost without a press.

The reason I mention this is that you need that contact between powder and wad for good ignition and pressure, but also for the total powder/shot column length. If you're way too low to get a good crimp, then this is when you might want to adjust using felt and paper cards. That's how it was done in yesteryear.

The book recipes should give you good room for crimp. If not, look for where your problem is. Crimping can be a pain as well.

I do roll crimp. It's kinda the fix-all for a lot of specialty loads. However, there is a large learning curve when it comes to slugs and buckshot. I don't think it's something that comes overnight or right away. At least it didn't for me. I went through a raft of crapola before I got on level ground.

Find a recipe and follow it to get started. Almost all the information you need is in Lyman 5th.