12GA Rifle From HELL--

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by hubel458, Jan 23, 2006.

  1. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    If the Lee slug is partlu hollowbase it is the KEY slug.

    We are working at getting a good proper size discarding sabot
    made by someone. Will post it all over the net when they are ready
    and where to get them. We will have the data also.Ed
     
  2. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    I think we found good overall sabot design that will
    be the easiest to get made, easiest to get seals
    and whatever wads needed... Keeping design simple.
    It is same simple design as the ones pictured above
    but with slightly thicker base.It is fairly compact
    for more room for our slow powder loads, and when
    using slower powders, we don't need as much cushioning
    which makes the room for the powder. Larger charges
    of slower powder, better velocity with less case
    expansion, and more reloads possible.

    We hadn't tested soft lead 58cal slugs in 12ga sabots
    for penetration until now.. They did very well,
    two different 440 gr ones, going though 4 inch dried
    timber, pushing out some wood on the back.
    Shows they are just starting to expand.Should do great
    for deer and hogs. Going 2200 in long barrel NEF.
    Have pictures later. A 58cal slug at good speed is
    nothing to look down on. Many African hunters liked
    that caliber in their 577 doubles for big game.
    Slugs can be loaded faster, cast heavier,
    and cast harder for any need.And compared to other
    way of getting slugs out of a shotgun, once
    we have good fullbore sabots, we save on needing
    bullet lube, gas checks, cheaper to get, no barrel
    leading, much better BC in the same weight of slugs
    compared to short fullbore ones....


    Here are pictures of molds that can make cast
    58cal slugs for the 12ga sabot we are working
    on.There are many makers and brands and styles
    of molds and weights available.

    mold58-1.jpg

    mold58-2.jpg


    Here is picture of a 10ga wadcup with a 730gr hollowbase
    lead slug in on the left .In my heavy barrel 10ga smoothbore
    I got 6" group at 50 yds. If we made hollow in the base
    bigger it would be more accurate in smooth barrel.
    The slug is .69cal one,measures .686"(from Lymam mold
    like in picture), that Dixie Gunworks has. I bumped up the
    diameter about .015" --wadcup is BPI VP100.

    10ga690.jpg


    Here is picture of a nice 8ga double a fellow has.
    Great looking gun..Ed

    wil8ga.jpg
     
  3. turp81

    turp81 Member

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    pump action

    Hello, sorry to barge in so late in the post. However I just cannot find the infromation I need anywhere else.

    II have a moss 835, 3 1/2mag with a fully rifled moss barrel (pretty thick walled).
    I would like to make a 12ga from hell pump action. What loads do you suggest. I know it would be limeted to a 31/2 casing to fuction probarly. my goal is to reach 5,000 ft-lbs + safely.
    Without blowing apart my shotty or face lol
    to note: the moss 835 is built for the 3 1/2 factory 15,000 psi ( however the gun has an aluminum receiver and a single yet robust locking lug. the gun seems to be robust. I shoot mags through it regularly.

    I am also looking into purchasing a supernova, or rem 887 with the rotary locking lug. Our these two designs better suited for the 12ga +P round?
    Thank you,
    Chris
    ;)
     
  4. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Rotary lug bolts are stronger, but can't be loaded much more than
    your 835 Mossy without a Pacnor barrel job like we did on
    the Savage 210s, or same heft as NEF bull barrels. WIN has a model
    with a 25" bull barrel.

    What is the Outside Diameter of the muzzle of your Mossy.
    Following loads are for modern steel guns with .920" OD muzzle.

    For 3.5 inch plastic cases using our slow powder loads staying
    just under 15,000 psi; use 100gr IMR4759 with slugs up to 600gr.
    discarding sabot slugs up to 550gr or so. If you want more
    powder,less wads, use RE17 up to 130gr to get about same pressure
    and velocity.Leave no space, but fill with the seal and whatever wads
    or cushion wads needed.Roll crimping is best.Ed
     
  5. turp81

    turp81 Member

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    thank you

    Thank you, Ed.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2012
  6. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Working more with 58cal lead slugs in 12ga sabot we want
    to get built. We shot a few for checking penetration,
    with 440gr slugs at 2200 plus fps. Shooting into popple.
    In picture the 6x6 on the left penetrated by harder lead
    alloy slug, with slug showing very little expansion on
    exit from the 6x6, On the right, soft pure lead slug through
    a 4x6 starting to show expansion on exit. These slugs can be
    gotten or cast your own to about any hardess needed.
    They can even be heat treated to be as hard as jacketed.
    I have rounded up 9 different ones very easy, shown in
    2nd picture and there are more. Ones in picture range
    from 400gr to 530 gr. There are molds to make them
    down to 350 gr and less.

    58calpen.jpg

    58allslugs.jpg

    Here is picture, on left of Accutip sabot we been taking out
    of loaded rounds and testing 58cal lead slugs with,
    and right a hard plastic sabot model, we are working on
    to see how slugs fit and how it looks, and how
    it compares to the Accutip and other sabots we have
    here from WIN, REM, FED, Hornady.

    two58sabots.jpg

    In picture is a really neat, very strong, 10ga Beretta style
    gun we got. Its barrel is heavier at the muzzle than most
    all 10 gauges we've seen except the NEF with bull barrel.
    Made by Pedretti, has top lever to open, instead bottom
    lever like Beretta or the Investarm 20ga we showed above.
    Going to make into switch barrel for 10ga and monoblock one
    in 585HE later. Have 2 barrels for it. Has nice big pad we put
    on it and it is weighted to 12 lbs in 10ga..

    ped10.jpg

    Now for some internal ballistics comparisons.There is formula
    for figuring appoximate Average Barrel Pressure,

    You take Muzzle Energy times 12......and divide it by

    the BORE Area in sq in, times the length of the barrel in inches.

    Examples- you have a 458 WIN, my 585HE and 12ga 3.5"--
    all at 5000 Ft Lbs of energy which for 458 be standard load.
    The 585HE in this mode would be burning close to charcoal.
    The 12ga 3.5 would be 440gr slug in sabot at 2200 plus.

    The 458 Ave Barrel Pressure is about 16,000 psi.
    The 585HE Ave Barrel Pressure is about 8,000 psi.
    The 3.5 12ga Ave Barrel Pressure about 5,200 psi.

    The purpose of this-- To show the possibilites of big bores.
    Ok you can't go much higher with 458WIN, about 80gr of powder

    But 585HE you can get way over 10,000 ft lbs,with 180gr powder
    it holds running at 458WIN Ave Barrel pressure.

    AND 12ga and 3.5" brass case in Savage 210, slow powder loads,
    heavy barrel, you can get over 10,000 ft lb. with 180gr powder
    at much less than 458Win Ave Barrel Pressure.
    Possibilities are really great fun. Ed
     
  7. Dave McCracken

    Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam

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    Holy Overkill, Ed!!

    If I read this correctly,you're exceeding 460 Weatherby performance by a factor of 2X.

    Wow.....
     
  8. madmike

    madmike Member

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    In a well-equipped suburban bunker
    .460 Wby is 8200 ft lbs at the muzzle.
     
  9. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Well in the Savage with the heavy barrel and
    long 3.85 inch 12ga FH case we made from BMG brass
    running 40K psi we get almost twice the 460 energy.
    In a high pressure action like Rob's falling block
    or my falling block, we get 2 1/2 times as much.
    In my 585HE we get about 1 1/2 times as much.Ed
     
  10. turp81

    turp81 Member

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    Hi ED,
    I am getting everything together to load my rounds for the 835 mossy. I have one more question before I start... I was going order my slugs from DixieSlugs. I wanted to try the IXL DGS slugs; however, they weigh 870 gr. instead of the 600 gr. How much of IMR4759 should I drop? You recomended 100gr IMR4759 for a 600 gr slug to stay at a safe 15,000 psi.
    I will be using brass 3 1/2 rocky mt cases.
    Thanks again for the help :)
     
  11. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    That 100gr 4759 was for a 3.5 plastic case with 600gr slug.
    For the brass case and 870 gr you can use same amount.
    But if you have RE17 it is better for the larger charges with
    heavier slugs in brass case.Start with 150 gr Re17.
    And even in brass case no airspace use wads.Ed
     
  12. turp81

    turp81 Member

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    just for fun

    Just for fun, I was thinking of loading some black powder rounds like the paradox 12 bore. is it possible to over pressue a modarn gun like my 835 with black powder?
    I was thinking of using 100=200 gr of f triple 7, in the rocky 3 1/2 mountian caseings, with the same dixie slugs (870gr) loading with reload-17.

    :)
     
  13. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    I'd start with a 100gr black, as I've never tested black.
    Then go up 5gr at a time checking extraction and
    case expansion.Ed
     
  14. turp81

    turp81 Member

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    sounds like a plan. Thanks Ed :)
     
  15. turp81

    turp81 Member

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    I am looking for another slug supplier. I went to Dixie’s site to order my slugs. Found out they only sell pre -loaded ammo in the IXL (out of stock at the moment). They also do not have the other slugs available on their site anymore. :(
     
  16. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    I know they don't have anymore. And their 600 gr
    was the best full bore slug ever.

    So what do we do, Well you can cast,
    but if you going to cast might as well cast 58cal slugs
    and use the 12ga sabots, that will be available by fall,
    that hold 58cal slugs. The 58cal molds are lot cheaper
    and 58cal slugs are much more streamlined, and that can extend
    their effective range.Plus there are guys selling 58cal slugs
    on Gunbroker. I've bought a whole bunch.Ed
     
  17. turp81

    turp81 Member

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    58 cal sabot

    Hi Ed. I cant wait to see them available :). What do you think of casting sabots out of Hevi-shot? I like the Greek US-S slug in 970 gr however it looks too long to give much room for 100+ gr of re-17.
     
  18. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    The USS isn't imported yet that I know of.
    You can't melt hevishot with lead melting and casting stuff.
    It has tungsten with higher melting point than steel.
    You can make tungsten bullets on lathe from bars,
    but price is way too high for material.Also expensive
    to machine.Hard on cutters.
    The 58 cal bullets for 12ga sabot are just plain or
    hard alloy lead. You can get weights up to 530gr and
    still be streamlined and get them out at over 2000 fps in
    long plastic cases and faster in brass cases.Ed
     
  19. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Some 12ga sabot progress. Here is pic of our sabot model, two
    in front, shown with Accutip sabot behind. They are all holding
    58cal slugs, showing how tight they fit and conform
    to the inside of the sabot petals. A decent fit is a help
    for better accuracy. Hope they get built for us this summer.
    We are working on it.

    side58sabot.jpg


    Second picture is from a fellow who put 58cal cast slugs in a
    thinwall 20ga shotcup and shot this at 50 yds. This with first
    load he tried. Great accuracy for so many shots. This shows
    great possibilities with 58cal slugs, and should even do better
    in the 12ga sabot like the above we like. I've heard about BP
    guys who got into 58cal that they get good accuracy.

    20gatarget.jpg


    Here is picture of some the grey bls sabots showing the way
    they have got bent and beat up, and shows what I and many
    others have found; that plastic cushions can bend and twist
    and shift, affecting the slug on leaving the barrel, affecting
    the accuracy.

    firedBLS.jpg


    On a future work, I'm doing a Greener Martini in my 585HE long
    case, Here is picture of a parts action with a stock idea
    I'm experimenting with. Might use this or regular pistol grip.

    oldgreener.jpg
     
  20. turp81

    turp81 Member

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    Hi Ed, those were awesome sabot loads posted above :)
    I've seen a browning bps 10 ga pump action at my local gun shop. I thought about getting one for my next big bore slug gun project when I'm finished with the mossy. It is a breech locking lug also. If I cut the barrel to cylinder bore, do you think it can handle the same posted loads?:

    ome 10ga experimenting with slug loads.
    In NEF with 32" factory, long bull barrel.
    It is smooth so we use hollowbase slugs

    Cases FED 3.5" plastic cases, roll crimped.
    900gr full bore slugs -180 gr RE17- 1800 plus.
    Use plastic powder seal and fiber wads.
    Slug hollowbase and hard cast.

    740gr 69cal hollowbase soft lead slug, in VP100
    10 ga wadcup. Deep hollowbase Cup has it own seal
    and cushion. 180 gr RE17 -- 2000+ fps.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2012
  21. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Thr Browning action is strong enough- Barrel not as heavy
    as my NEf , I'd reduce loads by 20gr to protect barrel.

    Back after losing time to a lightning fried computer.

    Test in 3.5" plastic using a few accutip 12ga sabots out of factory loads.
    The 12ga accutip sabot, hard cast 440gr 58cal minie slug in
    36" rifled NEF at 2200, and it went through 12 inches of wood like
    butter. The hole out showed it was starting to expand a little.

    Test of softer lead 500gr 58cal Minie with deeper hollowbase in accutip
    in smooth cylinder bore barrel at 2000, and 3 shots in 3" at 30 yds.
    This was a Lyman 575213 new style minie slug
    More experimenting can make these work fair in smooth barrels.
    For best accuracy use a blunt nose heavier 58cal 600gr slug with
    deepest hollow in the base. The blunt nose would be more front end
    heavy and a little more accurate from smooth bore..
    Lee and Lyman have molds like that.Others selling slugs also.

    I mentioned before about seals/wads must be stable and not crush
    down off center, or it might affect accuracy. Here is picture of
    the one piece seal and wad Federal uses in their sabot loads.
    Notice it doesn't have a lot of space in the cushion part that would
    allow it to tip or go off center.

    fedseal.jpg

    Here is picture of some 10ga work using expanded 69cal minie and
    700cal bullets in 10ga wadcup. 69cal hollowbase fairly accurate to
    50yds in heavy barrel smoothbore.

    10wadcup.jpg

    Here is picture of the Savage 110 done in my 585HE. Hollow butt of the
    stock is weighted, gun handles nice.Ed

    sav585.jpg
     
  22. turp81

    turp81 Member

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    Thank you, Ed. Glade your back.

    I think I will stick with a 12 with a rotary lugs for my next project. The 10ga bps doesn't seem to offer much more power advantage then 150 gr re-17 in the 3 1/2 brass case for my mossy.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2012
  23. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Using scoped NEF Ultra 12ga, 24 inch
    barrel, shot hard cast, 400 gr 58cal Lyman Minie
    in Accutip sabot at 75 yds. Hit small paper plate
    5 for 5. Going 2000fps.

    Speaking of 585HE above. We have two in falling blocks,
    10 bolt guns,5 break actions, and other types.
    A fun cartridge, and now that we are working with
    58cal slugs in 12ga sabots, 58 cal is where it is at..
    And now we are getting a run of 585HE cases made.
    Bertram getting ready to make the last die;
    done later this month and will be doing cases then.
    Cases are 3 bucks each, bulk shipping included.
    He usually charges 5 or more for wildcats, but as
    I'm furnishing final sizing die, and he will ship
    by bulk freight saving him handling, and he had
    a couple tools already to use, he said $3 each, a
    real good deal..

    He will ship whole bulk order to me.
    I will pass them on to everyone buying in first run.
    I and the boy will get a bunch also, to load for others,
    to fill orders, and collectors. Get 100 for 300 bucks,
    or be a 500 guy buying a 167 cases for 500 bucks.
    I'm having guys just make out MO to Bertram Bullets
    and get it to me and I send them on to him.
    I'll keep track of who gets what and ship cases to
    the guys helping with first run, no shipping charge.
    Want to make the run as big as possible. Got
    money ready to go for over 700.
    Like to get 3-4 times as much if possible.Ed
     
  24. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Sorry, late in posting, bad weather, computer lines zapped again.

    Some more experimenting with the Accutip sabots, Designed a
    two ball load using .577" cast lead balls. Bottom ball flattened a
    little in vise with the flats up and down in sabot.
    Used a fold crimp, 3.5" once fired REM case in NEF, long rifled
    barrel.....Fold crimp goes down on the top ball...Round
    balls 285gr each, going about 190 hit within 2 inches at 30 yds.

    Those 58 cal inside Accutip sabots are really versatile.
    Tested 3 shots with 58cal Buffalo hollowpoint, hollowbase, lead,
    muzzleloading slugs, 2" at 30yds. All loads with plastic x12x
    seal and white felt cushion under sabot.

    Experimenting with an Enfield, had one set up with my 700HE 3.25,
    and just did one in my longer 700HE. Did little longer port and
    added little more weight.First picture. 2nd picture is a neat 3 barrel
    16ga, which if I had it,deepen chamber, I'd have a neat 16ga FH....Ed

    en700he.jpg

    triple16.jpg

    PS---We are gaining on getting the big run of brass made for our 585HE.
    He is finishing the tooling and soon be producing. We want make the run
    as big as possible so everyone is welcome to help. You in US get in on
    first order, cases are $3 each.Those in the US he'll send whole order to
    me bulk freight, a big savings, and I'll get them to the parties involved,
    no charge for helping out on first run.The $3 cost is a great bargain
    compared to other big bore cases and if you buy 150 or so you've saved
    enough, over the cost of others to buy a barrel to make 585HE gun with.
    My contact--- gunowner at journey.com

    For those in Australia,Canada,South Africa,UK, and other countries
    send pmt to Bertram and he'll send cases to you individually when done.
    Right now can't afford export costs to send cases back out of US...


    .
     
  25. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Here is picture of the two ball sabot load, using two
    58cal balls in a 12ga Accutip style sabot.

    58ballsabot.jpg

    Hoping we will have sabot like above for reloading soon,
    in volumn so we can load and test a bunch of these 58cal
    bullets and slugs. There are soft cast, hard cast, and
    the heavier jacketed. These all work in my 585HE also.
    The 440gr hollowbase ones loose in the big box on left
    measure in at .585" and work great in my 585HE cases.

    all58sl.jpg

    Part of my 585HEs are smooth barrels guns
    just for testing the different style guns, and different loads.
    In the one smooth barreled one I have on BBK action, shooting
    my 585HE with 440 gr hollowbased Minie slug, we were hitting
    8 inch paper plate with them going about 2700 at 30yds.
    Hollowbased they act like shotgun slug at short ranges.

    Will be neat deal to shoot them in 12ga accutip style sabots in
    rifled 12 gauges and the smoothbore 585HEs with $30 barrels.
    Here is picture of Pedretti(Beretta style) that came as 10ga. I
    have monoblocked in 585 barrel. In picture there is 585HE case
    partly out of chamber. I have extra fairly heavy 10ga barrel
    also and changes in 2 minutes. And that monoblock break
    action locks up like a bank vault.Real strong.

    ped585.jpg



    And an ultimate big bore from history.ED

    railgun.jpg
     
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