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12GA Rifle From HELL--

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by hubel458, Jan 23, 2006.

  1. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

    Joined:
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    677
    Location:
    Brinton,Mich.
    We hope a company will be making our modeled 12ga sabots
    soon, this fall, to deliver to reloaders and suppliers..
    We also got first part of funds collected for the initial big run
    for our 585HE long cases being made. Sending in bunch
    this week, and need more to make run bigger For more info
    if your interested contact me.

    We, others, and 'VdoMemorie' on the Cast Bullet forums
    and Shotgun World are experimenting with 58cal Minie slugs and
    58cal round balls in 20ga wadcups, and find it is away to slug
    load your 20ga economically. You can use 20ga Commander wad and
    also shorter "sporting 20 short" wad from BPI. I cut bottom off of
    commander and use felt wads and 20ga obturator seal with .575"
    470gr minie slug and got 4" group at 30 yds, with smooth barrel.
    That is with heavy thick,smooth barrel I put in CBC below.

    Here is picture of the CBC break action that I mono-blocked in smooth
    super heavy, thick 20ga barrel..30" long, chambered for 3.5" cases.
    Works great with 3.5" plastic or brass cases.

    20gacbc.jpg

    Here is picture of the 1887 WIn with my 585HE in it. I put in a
    heavy barrel and different kind of extractor Barrel is 28"..
    I like putting my 585HE in all the old style of guns, just
    to show all the uses the case has.

    585in87.jpg

    I found supply of super long bmg cases to make my 700HE Long cases.
    It is 4.27" long and holds over 370 gr ball powder, 1000gr at 3400 plus.
    I have it in my Vulcan BMG bolt action and I just got one done in
    a MRC PH bolt gun, in picture below...Ed


    ph700helong.jpg
     
  2. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Location:
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    I found pics of a factory 12ga over under that
    has bottom barrel rifled, top one smooth with
    chokes. Will have pics few days. Also pics of
    585HE case samples from the first run
    of my 585HE cases, Bertram is doing.ED
     
  3. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Location:
    Brinton,Mich.
    Here is breach picture of that 12ga O/U made by Armi-Lumar
    It has the bottom barrel rifled right from factory, top barrel smooth,
    with interchangeble chokes. A real neat gun.

    armi-lumar.jpg

    Good news, I got few samples of first production run of my 585HE
    cases from Bertram, to test for strength and measure for uniformity.
    They all measure perfect and especially the belt length headspace.
    He made part of the run, a 1000, without headstamp..And over 3000
    with headstamp. Cases only 3 bucks each if you get in on the first
    shipment right away..Ship by mail to US cost too much, $1.50 each,
    so we will have a bulk freight shipment to US as big as possible.
    Folks in other countries order direct from Bertram.

    This case can be used in different style guns.,
    Bolt, Falling blocks, Break actions, Etc. I have reamers, and dies.
    Manson Reamer can make more reamers,CH4D has dies also.
    Earlier in thread I've shown various 585HE guns we have set up. Here
    is a break action, with 585 barrel monoblocked in, one my favorites,
    we just got done.

    585mt1.jpg


    I tested 585HE moderate loads(650gr @ 2400) in NEF, CBC, Pedretti,
    etc, break actions and didn't need sizing on the bottom 2/3. Real
    tough built cases. Cases, are real uniform. For high test loads we
    fired couple with 650gr at 3000 in Enfield bolt action, and it extracted
    ok, and resized ok back to specs. About a 62k psi load. Pockets tight.

    First picture, shown is some he made without headstamp that I stamped,
    and some with stamp and ones I made on the right..
    Also they can be used for wildcats, shorter cases, etc, and folks can stamp
    what they want. 2nd picture you see them in a regular # 31 shellholder,
    they don't need a special holder.

    In 3rd picture of sectioned cases, you can see how strong the cases are
    in base and corners, strong like the ones I made, on the left in picture,
    which were real strong cases, that worked great with max loads..
    The new 585 from Bertram on the right in picture.Nice strong base/corners.
    He supplies same base cases for 408 Cheytac, used with hot sniper loads
    that run real high average pressures..He will be manufacturing
    these Cheytac runs regular, so we can get ours made anytime
    we get money built up for an order..Ed



    new585head.jpg

    new585hold.jpg

    new585sec.jpg
     
  4. pilatus

    pilatus Member

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    Ed, interesting gun.

    I just returned home from a trip through the UK. He told me that virtually all new magnum 3" barrels, regardless of muzzle diameter have a rated service pressure of 15,000 psi, proofed at near 20,000 psi. beretta is now making a side by side slug gun you might be interested in. If that's the case, your reloads should be fine.
     
  5. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Location:
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    Some European guns like Zoli Z are proofed a lot higher
    than that. And the replica 87 WIN 12ga they proofed at 40k psi.Ed
     
  6. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Location:
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    Here is overall view of the Armi-Lumar O/U 12ga that has
    one barrel rifled. Second is another view of the breach.
    Nice looking gun.

    armi-lumar3.jpg

    armi-lumar2.jpg

    Here is picture of the 58cal Minie bullets in 20ga BPI Commander
    shotcup wads, and some 50cal bullets in 20ga BPI Sport shotcups.
    Sport wads were too small inside and to tapered inside for 58 cal.
    Other two are 458 bullets in a non-discarding base that had SPW,
    Buckhamer type slugs in them, that someone took apart, that I got.
    Last, 100yd group shot by Ajay on ShotgunWorld with Sav 220 20ga,
    with 20ga Commander wad and 58cal cast Minie bullets. Ed

    20gasport.jpg

    58target.jpg
     
  7. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Location:
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    Shot 575" Minie in 20ga Commander wad in heavy smooth barrel
    on singleshot at 30 yds. 4 shots in 6" group.

    First is picture of the 8ga Falling Block with texturized paint finish
    on the stock. It enhances the grip quite a bit on hard recoil guns.

    8gafinish.jpg

    Second is the Greener that I have my 585 HE in.Also have
    12ga barrel for it..

    585greener.jpg

    Third is Magtech singleshot action that I'm experimenting
    with putting on a thumbhole stock.

    585mt2.jpg

    Fourth are the long bmg bulleted blank cases that I found, to use to
    make my 700HE Long case, 4.27" long. I have few extra sets of
    five in links like shown, extra to sell 5 at a time in links,
    if some need them for their collections, etc... Ed

    bmgblanks.jpg
     
  8. wolf695

    wolf695 Member

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    I like it! Ive been using bmg rounds in my bolt 12 for years, as well as a few others. Not much for range but short shots they are great.
     
  9. madmike

    madmike Member

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    I do hope you mean cut and loaded for 12 gauge, and that you're not trying to fire them directly?
     
  10. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Guys on YT shot original loaded bmgs in modern break
    action with strong hammer spring / Put tape on it for tight fit.
    Goes off and case expands, fireforms and bullet rattles
    down the barrel.No gun damage so far in their video. Ed
     
  11. txnative1951

    txnative1951 member

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    Wow, 31 pages of a thread. It took me a few days to read it all, but it was quite interesting.

    I stumbled across this thread while looking for information on the 12-gauge rifled barrel that is available for the Thompson Encore. Thanks to this article, I now have to think that it would be better to buy the H&R Ultra Slug 12-gauge instead since they're about the same price as the Encore's barrel plus they have a thicker wall thickness on the barrel, so they're probably stronger.

    In my searching, I came across someone who was using a single-shot 12-gauge as a musket loading shotgun. He cut the plastic off the 12-gauge shell, put it in the breach, and then poured the blackpowder down the barrel, followed my a cotton gauze patch, some shot, and another cotton gauze patch.

    That got me to thinking about the large 16" guns from WW-II and their loading sequence. As such, I have to wonder if it would be possible to design one of these ultra 12-gauges so that you used a 3.5" shell, but it did not have a slug in it and instead just contained the powder and a cardboard / cork wad to keep the powder in the shell. Could the chamber be lengthened a bit so that you could drop a slug in it and it would be tight enough to not move? It would be a bit slower to reload than a case where the cartridge was completely self-contained, but I do not see the time that it would take to reload being that big of a deal since you probably need to give your shoulder a rest anyway. :)
     
  12. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    This would only be safe if it could be done without any air space
    between the top wad in the case and the base of the slug or ball.
    And to get that you'd have to have case full to the top with
    wads and ream out the forcing cone using longer case so
    that when slightly oversize slug dropped in wedging in rifling,
    then the case full of wads wedged against it, But so tricky to make
    work I personally wouldn't do it, Without a charge and wads
    and slug crimped hard in a case ignition problems would happen.
    Which could give SEE and blow up the gun at the worst or
    wedge a slug in barrel. It is so easy to roll crimp slugs into cases.Ed
     
  13. txnative1951

    txnative1951 member

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    I've wondered if making the bottom of the cartridge cone shaped on the inside would be more conducive for duplex loads (i.e. ones with a faster burning powder for a starter charge). Maybe slope it at a 45 degree angle from the perimeter of the cartridge to the primer hole / center?

    With respect to SEE, I've seen it claimed that it is caused in certain slow powder loads where there is a large air space between the powder and the projectile. I wonder if the reverse is true (i.e. if there was a large air space between the base of the cartridge and the start of the powder).

    There's a lot of theories about SEE floating around. There are some who even claim that it does not exist and is merely a result of other reloading mistakes. Having never experienced it, I guess I'm still open to new ideas on the subject.
     
  14. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Making the bottom of the inside of the case taper to the primer
    does aid ignition with our slower powder loads. I had brass ones
    for slugs made with a taper inside. Also in plastic cases those without
    the groove around the primer, IE, groove lower than the primer, ignited best.
    If they have the base wad in the case up around primer with
    taper in the corner they work best.

    Two ways SEE or related events occur, low amounts of powder and
    the flame flashes over the length of powder to front so that it explodes instead of
    burning progressively. Two airspace between powder/wads and slug causing
    the poor ignitiion, fire goes out,and slug moves a little, jams in rifling,
    then it re-ignites explosively, and slug is then and obstruction and stuff
    comes apart. Gun chambers can't stand explosive speeds and obstructions.Ed
     
  15. txnative1951

    txnative1951 member

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    I guess what I'm thinking of is a shoulder version of the old breech loading cannons from the 1860s or so, but with smokeless powder instead of blackpowder.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4goqGlku3hE
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sIn-n5ZeSs

    Instead of having the primer / percussion cap and powder charge separate like they were using at this time, the 12-gauge shell would be the primer and powder charge combined and the projectile would be loaded separately.

    According to the first video, they were supposedly able to fire 8 rounds per minute with that weapon. That's a lot more rounds per minute than my shoulder would want to put up with even on a scaled down shoulder mounted version.

    To reduce felt recoil, we typically just add weight to a firearm, right? The problem with this is that eventually it gets difficult to hold the weapon up when the barrel starts getting heavy. I've wondered how well it might work if heavy firearms like this were designed so that the barrel went over your shoulder so that the weight was more balanced fore and aft across the shoulder. Maybe somewhat like the way the old M1 bazooka was carried?

    300px-Soldier_with_Bazooka_M1.jpg

    Of course, the M1 was rocket propelled, so the recoil would have been negligible, but I have to suspect that a similar stock arrangement could be designed for a high weight firearm if needed.
     
  16. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Easiest way to handle recoil is add weight, which I
    do on all my blasters. You can design one like in
    your picture and as long as it is shoulder fired and
    not rocket propelled it counts as a regular shoulder
    fired firearm. Some would use bullpup design to get weight
    back. If I had to do a lot of shooting with heavy
    barrels I'd use a target rifle handgrip that extends down
    from forearm far enough so that my elbow would rest against
    my body. Be a lot more steady for accuracy also.Ed
     
  17. txnative1951

    txnative1951 member

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    Which brings about an interesting question... In the event of a catastrophic failure of the barrel from exceeding the allowable pressure, would it be safer to have your head near the chamber like we carry a rifle or to have it 2 ft in front of the chamber (assuming a 4 ft long barrel / total weapon length)?

    I've found a source for some DOM steel tubing that I could make into a smoothbore shotgun barrel if I so desired that could probably handle anything that could be thrown at it. I wonder what sort of pressure a .625" wall thickness barrel could handle (2" OD tubing)... :)
     
  18. madmike

    madmike Member

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    DOM seems to only be mild steel. It would work for a while, but I'd be worried about heat and stress reversing the lattice of the cold working. If you could get some from a mid range carbon steel...
     
  19. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    You can find seamless high alloy tubing like 4140
    that would have great strength. hold any pressures
    a brass 12ga case could hold.Ed
     
  20. txnative1951

    txnative1951 member

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    I've never really gotten into muzzle loaders or studied up on the various types, but I stumbled across something today concerning "inline action" blackpowder rifles. My idea of having the 12-gauge shell just contain the primer and powder seems to be basically just the next step in the progression of that idea. Hell, an argument might even be made that the inline action rifle is just a miniaturization of the loading sequence for the 16" guns on the Iowa class battleships.
     
  21. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    In our research to find economical and easy to use setups to load
    various slug/sabot combos in 12, 20 and other gauges, you've
    seen what we are doing with 58cal slugs in 12ga accutip type sabot we
    are getting built, and 58cal slugs in 20ga BPI Commander shotwad.
    You've seen pics of group shot by Ajay 58cal in 20ga Commander wad.
    And Greg Sappington made 16ga HP slug that fit 12ga BPI CSD wad.
    CSD wads are little thicker. In that vein we found another 20 ga combo
    that uses the BPI 20ga CSD wads and larger diameter of the 54cal
    muzzleloading slugs. Wad is thick and short so we can get the
    volumne of our slow powder we want in the loads for higher speeds.
    And base of CSD 20ga wad is thicker and stronger than most wads.
    . It doesn't have built on cushion, doesn't need cushion, which is not
    needed for slow powder loads. Has a good built on powder seal.
    It is long so it can be cut to fit any 54cal slug length.
    Best 54cal slugs to use are .543" and up.
    There is .548" Sharps style 2nd in picture from Dixie Gunworks.There is
    54cal Great Plains in picture on left, Far right in picture is 550 Magnum
    jacketed bullets in 20ga CSD. Great for hogs, bear. There are a variety
    of 54cal slugs you can cast or buy. Not big number like 58cal, but
    enough to find goos combo. Shot 3" group with 54cal Great Plains in
    CSD at 30 yds, smooth bore. Going over 2000 fps.
    Second picture shows they even work and fit good in 20ga RMC brass.
    Fits in a brass case real tight with .548" Sharps style slug in picture..

    csd20.jpg

    csd20-2.jpg

    Third picture shows how we mono-block 585HE barrels into strong
    singleshot break actions. Done it in NEFs, CBCs, Pedretti, Beretta,
    and the Magtech 199 shown above.

    monostub.jpg

    Fourth picture is the O/U Tristar with 585HE on top and 3.5" 12ga bottom.
    We sleeved the top barrel with .585" ID sleeve. We will use it with
    the 58cal .585" Minie hollowbase slugs. Bottom just for shot loads
    with a interchangeable chokes. Ed

    585ou.jpg
     
  22. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Little work on non-discarding 12ga sabots,You can get SPW
    wads without slugs in them and we set up one for a light load.
    We put a 20ga Lyman in some and they stay together ok. Just
    shorten the bottom skirt of Lyman and bevel the bottom corner.
    Total weight sabot and all is 360gr,,Shown In the picture..
    We also shrunk the skirt of the 12ga Lyman cast slug and put it
    in 12ga SPW wads and total about 550gr. If you have Lyman
    12ga mold, can use it as pattern to make a slug to go into a
    SPW wad. Leave the top part same as original Lyman and make
    bottom so it fits in the SPW with real tight fit.

    lymanspw12.jpg

    I like to use P14/M17 Enfields for our testing. Great for my 585HE
    case and in picture it shows how we change the sear spring to one
    on the back of the sear. So we can open up the bottom to feed
    the long cases from singlestack magazine box by removing the
    unneeded front of the sear and the action metal above, giving
    room to the back for cases that are 3.9" overall loaded length.

    bspring.jpg

    Couple guys who are setting up 585HEs in singleshots are going
    to shoot 58cal Minies and other bullets and use black powder
    and/or substitutes. So I tested some with Pyrodex pellets,
    Used 54cal, 60gr equivalent and they stack in the case ok,
    and just beveled corner of bottom one so it set tight to the base.
    As the case has good inside radius. Used 3 pellets with 24ga
    card over pellets, 3/8" felt wad and another card with 440gr Minie.
    There is a certain nostalgia about all that sulfur smell.If you can
    stand the cleaning. Slug going 2100.. 4 pellets about 2400.

    Here is picture of another long bullet in sabot/wad , in 12ga that
    was sent to me. Ajay on Shotgun World set this one up

    vdolong.jpg

    Did some testing, 12ga plastic & brass with new super slow RE-33 powder.
    It fires off ok in 12ga with 700gr and heavier slugs, with shotgun primers
    like slow RE-17 . It is made the same way as RE-17 as far as how the
    deterrent is put into the powder. Which is why it ignites in large diameter
    cases like 12ga and BMG with shotgun primers. Really be great for super
    heavy 1100 to 1500 grain slugs to get good speed and keep case damaging
    peak pressurs down. Example in 3.5" Fiocchi 12ga plastic case, 690gr slug in
    BPI Helix Driver Wad with 180 gr RE33 the basecup only expanded .002".
    And the Fiocchis are the softest bases around.Ed
     
  23. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Last picture above shows what can be with sabots. It was thought to
    be 20ga size when we got picture, but it is a smaller
    45cal caliber sabot with 30cal streamlined bullets in them.
    This was set up by the poster 'edge' on Castbullets forum.

    More info SPW sabots with 520 gr Lyman reworked and locked into
    them. With 3.5" brass RMC in the NEF long barrel gun, going about 2500
    they smash though 6" timber with Lyman tearing wood up. Also got the same
    combo 2200 in 3.5" plastic. Lyman in sabot left in picture , on right
    is factory SPW.

    lymanspw12.jpg

    Another setup using the largest diameter 58 Minie I have is this .590" in this
    12ga real thick muzzleloading wadcup for steel shot. I chamferred the bottom of
    Minie slug and wedged it in the cup. The cup comes real long and we cut it off.
    That leaves perfect edge to roll crimp against. Dab of epoxy holds the Minie slug
    in, so it works like a non-discarding sabot. This wad has is own seal and fairly
    short compared to others, so it leaves room for more of our slower powders.
    Shorter slug and wad setups make loading easier.



    58inmzwad.jpg

    Here is picture of the Magtech we redid in the 585HE by mono-blocking in 585
    barrel. This is second one we've done. Tried out a ladder peep sight on the
    back. Makes a neat gun.That underlever is a great touch.Ed


    585mt3.jpg

    As part of the 585 test guns have smooth barrels, they are like a hopped up
    24ga. We got couple bags of 24ga cards and felt wads. Easy way to use
    reduced loads as the wads are perfect in 585 case. For comparison top load
    say with RE17 and 650gr bullet is 170gr, but you can put in 100gr and card
    and couple wads and have real easy load. And you don't have to worry about
    airspace. Great for reduced loads with Minie slugs. In the same vein you
    can put in a card over the powder and about 3/4 oz of shot and have a real
    speedy 24ga shot load equivalent. Put card over the shot and glue it in.Ed
     
  24. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Location:
    Brinton,Mich.
    First picture is of nice finished 87 Winchester Will Sanders got set up
    and he is using short brass cases.Beautiful scroll work on the stock.

    wills87.jpg

    Next is takeoff of a slug idea from Longbow on Cast Boolits, 12ga lead
    roundball with section of copper tube, with wads inside, bpgs seal on the
    bottom, screwed together. I have many boxes of wads. Now he did his with
    screw into ball, put tube on with screw centered inside tube and filled tube
    with hot glue. It stays together. Both are nose heavy for smooth bore work.

    tubeslug.jpg

    Next is side sectioned view, one of our 585HE cases, showing how 3/4
    ounce of shot fits in.. 585 is same bore as 24ga. Cards shown are 24ga.
    Just glue top card in.Some of our 585s are smoothbore and the HB Minie
    slugs work at short range and the shot will do at short range also going
    over 2000 fps. Could use 24ga shotcup.

    585wadshot.jpg

    Next is a Mossy 390 with heavy 585 barrel. Makes a nice big bore gun,
    and handles nice with texturized stock finish. About same strength as
    the heavy break actions I have 585HE in.Ed


    585mossy.jpg
     
  25. hubel458

    hubel458 Member

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    Here is picture of the 12ga short brass RMC cases being used in
    the 1887 WIN shown above. They are 2 5/8" long cases and we
    get 600gr over 1900. He had work done on action to get it to feed
    these and 3" roll crimped plastic. Brass loaded about same length
    as 3' plastic crimped little long.

    12shortbrass.jpg

    Next pic are Lyman slugs cast for thin 12ga wad, used in thickwall
    10ga VP100 wads. These Lymans I got are on large size and fit
    VP100 fairly well. Makes easy, lighter, superfast load in 10ga.

    10lyman.jpg

    Next; further idea with Longbow's tube/roundball slug shown above.
    Use tube hot glued to ball with screw in the back and use it in
    a 10ga VP100 wadcup. These type slugs little more accurate used
    in wads as opposed to fullbore.

    10gatube.jpg

    Next shows picture of a long 585 bullets, about 1600gr in our 585HE
    cases. Got the idea from Bret In Minn that could setup 585HE
    guns with super long throat and load down to subsonic speeds to
    make the 585HE Whisper.....And regular bullet loads would still fire
    in the same guns......And at subsonic 1050fps it would have about
    4000 ft lbs, about twice what the peashooter whisper cases have.
    And my case could get a 2400 gr long bullet to same subsonic speed
    for 6000 ft lbs. And one that long would have proportions like the
    newer tank cannon, smooth barrel saboted darts, that it could be
    possibly be done, using long 2400gr in smooth barrel.
    Neat ideas from guys interested in whisper type loads.

    585whisper.jpg

    Last is picture of FBW in our 585HE with handgrip stock and light
    barrel for lightweight carrying. Grip is weighted, gun is 6lbs.
    Barrel is 28". I'm not a fan of light barrels. 650gr at 2500 is max of
    what I can hold onto shooting from the hip Moderate load
    .Little info about my 585 loads, like in the break actions and the
    Mossy in post above. I load about 85% max velocities, but to get
    85% we only need 2/3 the peak pressure, like 40,000 psi
    instead of 65,000...Ed

    585tact.jpg
     

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