1851 Bolt "Slipping"

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gobsauce

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I got my first Black Powder Revolver a while back, got it used from a nice old man named "Pat". Being used , I figured it'd be like my first car : have lots of issues I could learn from. So far, this is the only issue I've had and I can't seem to find anything about this issue.

It was working incredibly well, then one day the bolt's legs snapped and so I just replaced it. Bought the replacement from Taylor's & Co., got it yesterday and simply installed it, except it doesn't work as it should. I think it may be a fitment issue, but I cannot really say.


The link is to a video I recorded trying to show the problem( sorry for the poor camera work). Maybe it's supposed to work that way, I've been called a troglodyte in the past.

I can post images or more videos if needed.

 
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I don't see the bolt as a drop in part. It tends to take all the variables in in the relationship of several parts. A dozen interfaces need to be checked and adjusted. Maybe start by comparing it to the old part that worked.
 
"a while back" ? "got it used " ?

If it's a pre-CNC machine era model then current production parts may need to be altered to work otherwise it's usually a drop in fit. It's an important consideration.

Keeping the pieces of the old part for reference while fitting is probably a good itdea.
 
Dont see the link?
Whoops, My bad!

Pat said he bought it new ten years ago, It's a Pietta 1851 Navy in .44 with a steel frame. The only way to tell how old it really is would be to look up the serial.

The bolt is new from Taylor & Co. I have the old part, but the section that interfaces with the hammer is what broke off. Considering that it broke in the field, I had no chance of finding what broke. Here are images of the original bolt.

PBR.jpg PBL.jpg
 
The bolt is a real bugaboo for me. I've figured out the hand, and trigger and sear and all that really well, (reasonably well) but I still don't understand the bolt. The Kid and the Dragoon will chime in and set you straight I'm sure.

Be sure to de-bur and polish up all them parts when you have them out. "The Duelist" has a couple of good videos on doing that. Even a cave man can do it. The old bolt looks like it was in desperate need of polishing.
 
I already polished this new one, polished it to 1500ish grit out of boredom. I was actually heading home to polish the bolt and see how it would change the way it feels ( I took it out to the range after polishing a single component to see if I noticed the difference). Mechanical things are not my forte, electricity is, that's why I have such an easy time reaching out.
 
Right on, polish all the moving parts. That's funny, I'm a major gear-head, but electricity is like VooDoo to me. I understand automotive electricity/wiring perfectly, but household wiring? I'd be better off trying to understand Rocket Science. !!!!!! :) Or women.
 
It's interesting that both legs are broken off. Its hard to tell what's going on without having the pistol in hand, I can tell you the bolt should drop into the lead in front of the deep cuts on the cylinder, it should also bottom in the cylinder cuts with minimal side to side play. The length of the leg next to the hammer determines when the bolt drops. It should start to retract at around a 1/4 inch of hammer travel.
 
For a first ever black powder revolver I would get a new one. Don’t let some second or third hand 40 year old Italian reproduction set the precedent for you. Not saying there isn’t any good ones out there.
They have been made much better since yours was made. You will have more worry free fun from the get go and broken parts will be less of a hassle to replace. Only my opinion of course but it’s the same advice I would give my best friend.
 
I'm not sure they are making them better. Quality control seems to have taken a dive, at least at Uberti. (and I'm a Uberti fan) I just bought a brand new Uberti, and had to do more work to the gun than replace the bolt and adjust the length of the dog-legs.

I have a "DGG" or Euroarms 1860 that was made in 1974, and it's been a good and reliable pistol, and accurate. I've had loading-latch stud problems with it in the past, but since I shortened the barrel they went away. But never a broken dog-leg or spring in the 40 or so years I've had it.

I think if one goes over old or previous posts you'll find plenty of problems with out of the box, new pistols. I would send the pistol to one's favorite pistol smith/action tuner, two on this forum I know of, and have it tuned and tweaked to perfection. If I had it to do over again, I would have had my new pistol sent directly to one of the "fine tuners", have them do their magic, and send me the pistol and the bill. It would have been well worth it.
 
I don't mind buying a used BP revolver as my first, I did that on purpose. To me, that means that I'll face challenges later. It gives me a reason to use it. beat it up. So the question is: What is it supposed to do, and how do I get it to do that. Is the bolt supposed to do what it does in the video? If not, what is it supposed to do?
 
I don't mind buying a used BP revolver as my first, I did that on purpose. To me, that means that I'll face challenges later. It gives me a reason to use it. beat it up. So the question is: What is it supposed to do, and how do I get it to do that. Is the bolt supposed to do what it does in the video? If not, what is it supposed to do?

There are a series of files as to how to address problems with Uberti and Pietta revolvers written by Pettifogger around 2009. Download the appropriate .pdf files and study them.

PettiFogger_Files directory listing (archive.org)

If you can't figure out the problem(s) after viewing this stuff, take it to a reputable gunsmith.

Regards,

Jim
 
Calling Mr.Kid! Calling Mr.Dragoon! Clean up on isle five. Just kidding. The Dragoon and the kid can tell you. They'll come around soon I'm sure.
 
I got a question, Given that the bore was and is still completely immaculate, would y'all say that $150 was a decent price?
 
Step 1 is to get the bolt head to fit the notches. You can do this by sanding the "off side" (all of it . . . right side (tall side) or the left side (since you should thin the left side arm). Either way, the bolt head has to fit into the notches. After that, the left arm should be reduced to at least half its thickness (from the inside). You WANT IT to flex . . . saplings bend, Oaks break . . . if it's a new Uberti bolt, the left arm is already thin enough (just like the originals).

( * correction* !! I fit the bolt head by reducing the whole side because I install a fitted bolt block. If you're not going to install a bolt block, just thin the area immediately in line with the bolt head and on the left side only . . . the right side needs to locate against the frame.)

20170518_203517.jpg
Before continuing, check that there is a "return bevel" on top of the left arm. This bevel allows the cam to push the arm to the side and get back under the bolt arm as the hammer falls. I point this out so that during the "timing " process, that bevel needs to be maintained.

Step 2 check that the radius cut for the cam actually clears the cam. This is called "reset". The cresent cut at the rear of the left arm is where the cam locates. If needed, this cut needs to be opened enough to allow the cam to " locate" when the hammer face breaks the plane of the recoil shield or just after. This is important because letting the hammer down on a live cap on a loaded chamber without "reset" occurring means your revolver is locked-up and dangerous!! . . . to everyone!!

Step 3 timing the bolt drop. The 2 surfaces involved will be the rear most vertical surface and the top horizontal surface. The rear most dictates how far down the bolt head descends into the frame. Removing material from the top most will determine when the arm falls off the front of the cam (NOT slide off the side of the cam like you may hear on some YouTube vids . . sheeeesh!!). So, to keep from over stressing the bolt spring side of the combo spring, the bolt head needs only to descend even with the "water table" of the frame. Any more than that puts undue stress on the spring (with torsion springs, it doesn't matter). After you're happy with the bolt descent, the top surface can be reduced (staying parallel with the very bottom of the bolt proper) to achieve bolt drop. Ideally, the bolt should drop a bolt width before the locking notch ( in the approach(lead) if one is available).

This is assuming that the hand is the correct length which will give you simultaneous lock-up of the cylinder at full cock (sounds like a single click). If this is in question, correction/confirmation of this needs to occur before timing the bolt.
Correct action setup will give 3 audible clicks (1/2 cock, bolt drop, full cock ).
 
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Alright, so to make sure I understand correctly:

I should thin the leg on the left side.
Make sure the groove is cut properly to engage with the cam.
 
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