1851 Navy & beginner

[rodwha]

I really don't understand what you wrote.

3 boxes of Remington No.10 caps just arrived from France!! We still don't have powder and balls, but we (Colt Navy and I) are not virgins any more, in a way
I was very surprised to see how tiny the box is and how tiny the caps are - I expected something twice the size. How anyone with large fingers can operate cap & ball? Anyway, cap fitted perfectly; even though I've seen it live today for the first time in my life, it seemd to me right away that no pushing and pinching is needed. Still, I took a small screwdriver to push a cap, but it was already completely seated on a nipple, it didn't go any further. It was seated very firmly, I don't think I could easily pull it off nipple. Next week I'll get Czech caps which are much cheaper to me (no shipping costs from another country), so I'll compare them to Remington 10 which seem to fit perfectly to my 1851 Navy.
I fired only two. After firing the first cap, it stayed on the nipple, but fell off when I moved my arm. After firing the second cap, it stayed on the hammer and I had to pull it off the hammer with my fingers.
I was surprised how loud it was!! I didn't expect it, I thought it'll make much smaller BANG. It was loud, all right, so no cap shooting indoors. Can't imagine what kind of BANG will powder produce when a tiny cap makes this much.

On a muzzleloader the nipple screws into the drum. If someone loads their gun without powder it's called "dry balling." Some people use an attachment that screws into the ramrod that has a screw embedded in it that screws into the projectile to pulled it out (ball puller). Some remove the nipple and dribble a little powder down in there (can't be much more than a few grains) and shoot it out, which is what I was referring to.

Colt pistols often pull the spent nipple off and it can jam up the cylinder if it falls down in the works. It seems that that V notch cut into the hammer face meant to sit over the little pins on the back of the cylinder for carrying a fully loaded pistol in the "safe" position has sharp edges that can be filed to keep it from grabbing.

Prior to this some people opened the V a little larger and drilled a hole just behind the cylinder in the hammer notch and epoxy a short piece of the drill bit to use as a cap rake keeping the spent cap from being pulled far enough to remove it from the nipple.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

Colt pistols often pull the spent nipple off..

Ouch! That would hurt.
I know what you meant (cap), but I nearly spilt my drink thinking of that.

 

[BullSlinger]

Hope this photo posts correctly:

This is a 51 Colt Navy repo by Pietta 15gr 3F Old E powder, Remington #10 caps. 8 meters from target. Fired offhand.
I love how accurate the old tech works.

Hope by now you have gotten your permit.

 

[BullSlinger]

Forgot to mention I do use a lubed wad over powder/under ball and lube a bit over ball.

 

[1861]

After firing the first cap, it stayed on the nipple, but fell off when I moved my arm. After firing the second cap, it stayed on the hammer and I had to pull it off the hammer with my fingers.

Is this usual "behaviour"? The second spent cap stayed on the hammer, like it was glued. I was looking around the floor where it is, and after half a minute I realised that it's on hammer. If I had loaded revolver, all 6 chambers, and if I wanted to shoot all 6 in a row, that wouldn't be good, right? With spent cap staying "glued" on the hammer. If I have to check hammer after every shot, that doesn't seem to me the way Mr. Samuel Colt envisioned it. Also, if spent cap stays on nipple...? So, I shot 2 caps in my entire life, and they both stayed, the first on the nipple, the second on the hammer. Should I worry? Is something wrong with the caps?

 

[1861]

Thanks for nice photos BullSlinger. Still waiting for permit. Powder will arrive on Monday, but I can't buy it without permit.

 

[drobs]

Is this usual "behaviour"? The second spent cap stayed on the hammer, like it was glued. I was looking around the floor where it is, and after half a minute I realised that it's on hammer. If I had loaded revolver, all 6 chambers, and if I wanted to shoot all 6 in a row, that wouldn't be good, right? With spent cap staying "glued" on the hammer. If I have to check hammer after every shot, that doesn't seem to me the way Mr. Samuel Colt envisioned it. Also, if spent cap stays on nipple...? So, I shot 2 caps in my entire life, and they both stayed, the first on the nipple, the second on the hammer. Should I worry? Is something wrong with the caps?

Normal.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-open-top-colt-replicas.818497/#post-10497332

They should fall off to the right as you fire the gun / rotate the cylinder. Best way to handle it is to fire the gun, lift the muzzle up between shots and give the gun a little shake.

 

[1861]

Thanks drobs! The Cap Rake method seems smart, but I don't have anyone here to do it for me. Maybe in a future I'll somehow get to that, if I ever experience jams...

 

[J-Bar]

Thanks drobs! The Cap Rake method seems smart, but I don't have anyone here to do it for me. Maybe in a future I'll somehow get to that, if I ever experience jams...

You will experience jams. Your revolver will behave differently when shooting powder charges rather than just popping caps. Some of the high pressure gas from the burning powder will flow backwards through the nipple and loosen the spent cap, and may blow it off the nipple completely. If the spent cap stays on the nipple it will not fall back into the hammer slot or get trapped between the cylinder and frame (water table is the term for the part of the frame immediately below the cylinder. No one knows why it is called that.) So spent caps staying on the nipple is really better than having them fall off and cause jams.

There are a number of things that can reduce jams from cap fragments. Installing a cap rake is very effective in preventing spent caps from getting into the internal works via the hammer slot. Grinding out the recoil shield a bit to give the spent cap more room to fall out of the gun helps too. But you will still occasionally get a cap fragment caught between the cylinder and water table even with these modifications.

Expect jams. Hopefully you won't get very many. Just clear them and continue shooting.

 

[1861]

Thanks J-Bar. If a cap fragment gets caught between the cylinder and "water table", that's not a big deal because I can easily clear it, right? But if spent cap gets into the internal works via the hammer slot - that sounds like a real problem, because I have to take apart the whole revolver, am I correct?

 

[J-Bar]

Thanks J-Bar. If a cap fragment gets caught between the cylinder and "water table", that's not a big deal because I can easily clear it, right? But if spent cap gets into the internal works via the hammer slot - that sounds like a real problem, because I have to take apart the whole revolver, am I correct?

You are correct.

Sometimes you get lucky and the spent cap will get stuck in the hammer slot itself. You will fire a shot, then the next one will not fire. The spent cap in the hammer slot will cushion the hammer fall so it does not have enough force to ignite the next cap. When this happens (and it will happen!!) point the muzzle down at the ground (to prevent any spent cap from falling farther down inside), cock the hammer back slowly and inspect the slot for a crushed spent cap. If you see one, simply remove it and continue. When target shooting and speed is not a factor, you can inspect the cap you just fired each time by keeping the muzzle pointed downrange and slowly cocking the hammer back to make sure the spent cap doesn't misbehave and fall backwards. In a war, gunfight, or timed competition, the shooter does not have that luxury!

If a spent cap or fragment makes it down all the way to the inside, you will have to do some disassembly. Usually you can see it in there after removing the grip frame, so you may not have to remove bolt, trigger, hammer and hand. A cap fragment can be camouflaged by grease and soot and not easy to see until the individual parts are cleaned. If your gun is not acting right, hard to cock, bolt not locking up, etc. a spent cap in the works is a common cause. I don't know how far you have to travel between your home and shooting range, so you should prepare yourself for doing some work on the gun at the range. If you don't already have one, buy a good gunsmith's screwdriver with a hollow ground bit. A regular tapered screwdriver will mess up the screws. I can completely disassemble and reassemble one of these guns with a bit that measures 0.185" wide at the tip. The smallest screws are those in the grip frame, so get a bit that fits those. A little plastic box to hold the parts, maybe a towel or piece soft leather to make a table cloth and you can do wonders! After you practice disassembly and reassembly at home a few times, you will be impressed with how easy it is to work on these.

 

[drobs]

Thanks J-Bar. If a cap fragment gets caught between the cylinder and "water table", that's not a big deal because I can easily clear it, right? But if spent cap gets into the internal works via the hammer slot - that sounds like a real problem, because I have to take apart the whole revolver, am I correct?

That's when you draw your 2nd or 3rd revolver and keep shooting.

 

[drobs]

The shop where you are buying the powder from might know of a gunsmith in the area. A good machine shop could do the cap rake modification as well.

 

[J-Bar]

The shop where you are buying the powder from might know of a gunsmith in the area. A good machine shop could do the cap rake modification as well.

I'm in the process of producing a video about making a cap rake a different way than with a drill bit. All you need is a Dremel and courage! I hope to have the video completed within a week. The rake has been tested and it works.

Certainly machinists and gunsmiths will do a pretty job. I am not a gunsmith or a machinist. My cap rake is functional but not a work of art. But for those who do not have easy access to a gunsmith it will be an option. if I can put a cap rake in, anyone can!

 

[1861]

The shop where you are buying the powder from might know of a gunsmith in the area. A good machine shop could do the cap rake modification as well.

Good advice! Will check.

 

[1861]

buy a good gunsmith's screwdriver with a hollow ground bit

Thanks for such a long and educative post! Could you please give some recommendations / links / pics regarding the part which I quoted here? I only have top quality Pedersoli nipple wrench. I completely forgot about a screwdriver. Please advise on some really good ones, for Pietta's 1851 Navy.

 

[1861]

Acording to Amazon reviews, it's hard to find a really high quality gunsmith screwdrivers.

 

[J-Bar]

Acording to Amazon reviews, it's hard to find a really high quality gunsmith screwdrivers.

Brownell's Magna Tips set is professional quality. You don't really need everything in this kit. It's just an example of the best. I don't have these myself, but these are highly recommended by gunsmiths I know, and those who own many firearms of their own.

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...a-tip-sets/magna-tip-super-sets--prod417.aspx

This one from Dillon Precision is much less, and will do everything you need. Both Dillon and Brownells guarantee their products.

https://www.dillonprecision.com/the-b-square-32-piece-gunsmith-screwdriver-kit_8_30_24592.html

Our big sporting goods retailers offer some; Cabela's:

http://www.cabelas.com/browse.cmd?categoryId=734095080&CQ_search=gunsmith+screwdrivers

Midway USA specializes in firearms related supplies. Here a page of choices:

https://www.midwayusa.com/s?userSearchQuery=screwdriver&userItemsPerPage=48

I'm using this cheap old set and so far it has worked ok:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/776936/pachmayr-31-piece-professional-gunsmith-screwdriver-set


You will get arguments about which brand is better, but any of them are better than a tapered screwdriver.

If you are reasonably handy with shop tools, you might be able to convert a conventional screwdriver by grinding the tip in such a way that it sits all the way down into the slot in the screw head. The problem with a tapered screwdriver tip is that it puts all the torque pressure on the upper edge of the slot, and usually twists itself out, damaging the slot. The hollow ground gunsmith's screwdriver fits the walls of the slot all the way down to the bottom, provides more effective torque, and is less likely to slip out. So, maybe you can make your own if ordering any of these is difficult. But any of these listed above will be better quality steel than your everyday screwdriver.

 

[BullSlinger]

Unfortunately cap jams are common. I lift the muzzle of the gun up and tilt to the right while cocking for the next shot so the spent cap hopefully falls from the gun to the ground. Check to insure the cap falls free. If not go to half cock and pick it out or it may get caught up in the revolver. If you don't go to half cock and your finger is resting on the trigger the gun may go off much to your surprise.I discovered this the hard way and did it again afterward. I now always go to half cock.

A few years back I would fill in the hammer with JB Weld sand it off and when firing the caps would stay on the nipples. Does not always work but helps.Resting the hammer between caps on the cylinder is no longer a safety option as the hammer has been filled in and will not rest on the pegs in the cylinder. Now days I put up with pointing up and watching. Still have an occasional jam.
The entire process in a real pain in the butt.

Welcome to Black Powder Repo Revolvers.

 

[Mizar]

Acording to Amazon reviews, it's hard to find a really high quality gunsmith screwdrivers.

Thank God(s) we don't have Amazon in the Balkans... Tell you what - buy some cheap BOSCH flat head screwdriver bits. Just 3 sizes will serve you well enough. Ground them to size (with some sandpaper, metal file, diamond nail file, whatever...). Enjoy your new set of gunsmithing screwdriver bits for less than 2 Euros... Those bits are tough enough and more importantly, they will be fitted exactly to the size you need them to be. You really don't need some high quality gunsmithing set - you simply would not use it to it's full potential with only one brand new firearm.

 

[expat_alaska]

Resting the hammer between caps on the cylinder is no longer a safety option as the hammer has been filled in and will not rest on the pegs in the cylinder.

I don't know why you did that, but it is your pistol. Even if you had not filled in the hammer safety pin slot, it is still not as good as the Manhattan/Rigdon and Ansley 12-bolt slot stop in lieu of the safety pins. The safety pins were easily broken.

When my machinist neighbor gets quiet this winter,I will try to convince him to machine an extra 6 bolt stop slots on my extra .36 caliber plain cylinder without pins.

The cylinder only cost me $25 from another member here, so it is not a great loss if it does not work out.

Just a crapshoot with that modification. We'll see if and when it works.

I really want a Rigdon and Ansley repro. No one produces them commercially although I have emailed Pietta and they seem a bit interested. With their CNC machining it should be a no brainer for them to create one. I have not received a reply recently as to their decision.

Later,

Jim

 

[drobs]

I bought a set of Grace Gunsmith Screwdrivers from Cabela's. I really only use about 2 or 3 of them.
I should've bought this set off ebay - 3 screwdrivers specifically for the Colt Single Action Army which will fit our guns:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GRACE-USA-3...846911&hash=item3f574206e5:g:V8AAAOSw4UtWSQQ3

 

[1861]

I'm trying to understand just what is this, I don't get it: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0012AXR4S

 

[expat_alaska]

I'm trying to understand just what is this, I don't get it: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0012AXR4S

It is a torque wrench that is adjustable in inch-pounds. When the wrench/driver achieves the torque setpoint, it will (probably) click so you cannot over-torque the screw.

Jim

 

[1861]

It is a torque wrench that is adjustable in inch-pounds. When the wrench/driver achieves the torque setpoint, it will (probably) click so you cannot over-torque the screw

I still have no idea how does that work, so I'll just skip that. It seems that everyone on the web (from the USA) agree that THE BEST screwdrivers for gunsmithing are BROWNELLS. I'll check now the prices and availability of those.