1851 Navy Purchase Options

[Lawdawg45]

Always wanted an 1851 Navy cartridge conversion, and it looks like Uberti is the only option at this point. As with all my guns they must be a multi-tasker, and this is no exception. I'll be using this primarily for SASS/NCOWS shooting, but it potentially could be on my hip while Deer hunting or in other woods excursions. My question is which caliber (.38/45 Colt) has the stronger frame? With the Blackhawks the smaller caliber tends to have the stronger frame, and just wondered if this was the case with the '51 also. If the .38 is the winner, is the Uberti rated for +P ammo? Comments and advice would be appreciated!

LD

 

[Kernel]

It's a blackpowder muzzleloader with an open top frame, the original design is over 150 years old, and you want to know if it'll be okay with modern smokeless +P ammo?

 

[Lawdawg45]

It's a blackpowder muzzleloader with an open top frame, the original design is over 150 years old, and you want to know if it'll be okay with modern smokeless +P ammo?

As I stated, I thought the .38 frame to be stronger and that's why I asked. I'm sure a LSWC at 800 fps would do the job, but I was honestly curious. Metallurgy has progressed somewhat in 150 years.

 

[Coyote3855]

I had a pair of Uberti Open Tops on (1871 model) that took a steady diet of Cowboy loads with no problems at all. The .38 would be stouter, I think, but I probably wouldn't do +P. Better options for a woods gun.

 

[MCgunner]

No +P If I converted a 51, I'd shoot nothing more'n wadcutters in it. I prefer to keep mine cap and ball, though, more fun and the original intended load.

 

[Old Fuff]

The "open top" Colt's don't have a top strap, which is important, but why?

In the open top design the barrel is held on, but not directly attached to the frame. Instead the pin the cylinder rotates on (sometimes called an "arbor") is slotted at the front, as is the barrel at the back, and the whole thing is held together by a key or "wedge) that goes through the cylinder pin and both sides of the barrel.

Such an arrangement is not particularly strong, and substantially weaker then a design where the frame has a top strap and the barrel is threaded into the frame (think Colt SAA or Ruger Blackhawk).

If you are shooting black powder or very modest smokeless loads the open top reproductions should be O.K. On the other hand hotter ammunition may cause the cylinder pin to develop cracks at the front corners of the slot at the front. If this happens you may find the barrel going down range with the bullet.

For the purposes outlined by Lawdawg45 the Ruger Blackhawk or Vaquero would be a much better choice.

Incidentally the 1851 Navy Colt is a .36 caliber, 6-shot revolver. No way are you going to be able to rechamber it to .45 Colt. If you still want an open top Colt style in .45 caliber look at Uberti's Model 1872.

 

[Lawdawg45]

The "open top" Colt's don't have a top strap, which is important, but why?

In the open top design the barrel is held on, but not directly attached to the frame. Instead the pin the cylinder rotates on (sometimes called an "arbor") is slotted at the front, as is the barrel at the back, and the whole thing is held together by a key or "wedge) that goes through the cylinder pin and both sides of the barrel.

Such an arrangement is not particularly strong, and substantially weaker then a design where the frame has a top strap and the barrel is threaded into the frame (think Colt SAA or Ruger Blackhawk).

If you are shooting black powder or very modest smokeless loads the open top reproductions should be O.K. On the other hand hotter ammunition may cause the cylinder pin to develop cracks at the front corners of the slot at the front. If this happens you may find the barrel going down range with the bullet.

For the purposes outlined by Lawdawg45 the Ruger Blackhawk or Vaquero would be a much better choice.

Incidentally the 1851 Navy Colt is a .36 caliber, 6-shot revolver. No way are you going to be able to rechamber it to .45 Colt. If you still want an open top Colt style in .45 caliber look at Uberti's Model 1872.

The Uberti website lists the '51 Navy in a .38, and the 1860 Army in.44, and .45 Schoefield/Colt

 

[Old Fuff]

The Uberti website lists the '51 Navy in a .38, .44, and .45 Schoefield/Colt

Yup, but Colt never made one. In fact the Italian makers have and still are, making reproductions that Colt never produced during the 19th century.

In this case Uberti is using its (approximate) 1872 platform in combination with a 1851 style barrel bored to .452 groove diameter. The cylinder in it is large enough to chamber up to the .45 S&W Schofield cartridge, that at the time was sometimes called the .45 Government because it was manufactured at Frankfort Armory.

But none of this eliminates the issue of what can happen if increased pressure loads are used in an open top revolver. At least in theory you are O.K. if the ammunition is made to the same pressure standards that were originally used.

 

[Lawdawg45]

Yup, but Colt never made one. In fact the Italian makers have and still are, making reproductions that Colt never produced during the 19th century.

In this case Uberti is using its (approximate) 1872 platform in combination with a 1851 style barrel bored to .452 groove diameter. The cylinder in it is large enough to chamber up to the .45 S&W Schofield cartridge, that at the time was sometimes called the .45 Government because it was manufactured at Frankfort Armory.

But none of this eliminates the issue of what can happen if increased pressure loads are used in an open top revolver. At least in theory you are O.K. if the ammunition is made to the same pressure standards that were originally used.

Gotcha. In the 51, Winchester .38 LRN cowboy ammo would be ok, correct?

LD

 

[Kernel]

Lawdawg,

You remind me of the guy from the Coke Zero "AND...?" commercial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTxxRfO06vU

 

[Old Fuff]

In the 51, Winchester .38 LRN cowboy ammo would be ok, correct?

I would think so, as the "converted style" revolvers that are made as metallic cartridge guns are proofed by the Italian Government for whatever round they are chambered in.

But again, it is my understanding that where cap & ball revolvers are made with investment cast frames, the cartridge ones are forged. If that's the case I would expect that all of Uberti's "cartridge converted" models are made using the 1872 size frame and cylinder, chambered for whatever round, and matched with different straps, trigger guards, stocks and barrel assemblies to create a particular look. What these may be is dependent on what importers what to buy, rather then what Colt originally built.

I don't question the strength and fun you can have with a Uberti C&B > cartridge revolver, just that you do not want to turn it into a junior magnum. For that go look at Ruger's.

 

[Lawdawg45]

I would think so, as the "converted style" revolvers that are made as metallic cartridge guns are proofed by the Italian Government for whatever round they are chambered in.

But again, it is my understanding that where cap & ball revolvers are made with investment cast frames, the cartridge ones are forged. If that's the case I would expect that all of Uberti's "cartridge converted" models are made using the 1872 size frame and cylinder, chambered for whatever round, and matched with different straps, trigger guards, stocks and barrel assemblies to create a particular look. What these may be is dependent on what importers what to buy, rather then what Colt originally built.

I don't question the strength and fun you can have with a Uberti C&B > cartridge revolver, just that you do not want to turn it into a junior magnum. For that go look at Ruger's.

Thank you!

LD

 

[CraigC]

Uberti doesn't make an 1851 in anything other than .38Spl. Nor is the `51 based on the `72. The 1871-1872 Open Top utilizes a dedicated cartridge frame, just like the originals. It also has a larger cylinder. The 1851 is a true cartridge conversion with a conversion ring in the Richards-Mason style.

Uberti does make the 1860 (Richards Type II and Richards-Mason versions) and 1871-1872 Open Top sixguns in .38Spl, .44Colt, .44Spl and .45Colt. Which are also very accurate reproductions of originals.

You can't really say that any of these guns are any stronger than any other. Because all should be used with standard pressure loads only. If you foresee ever needing to use one for hunting, I would strongly suggest a big bore, because a 240-250gr cast bullet a 800fps will be vastly more effective than any .38Spl load.

...that at the time was sometimes called the .45 Government because it was manufactured at Frankford Arsenal (fixed).

The .45Gov't was a completely different cartridge. It was the length of the .45S&W but had the smaller rim of the .45Colt. This was to facilitate use in both Colt SAA and S&W revolvers.

 

[Lawdawg45]

Gents, thanks for the informative and humorous posts. My 30 year love affair with SA's has mainly been with Vaquero's and/or Blackhawks, so my BP conversion knowledge is seriously lacking (which apparently shows). I truly do want a '51 Navy, so I will heed the wisdom here and only use the sub-sonic cowboy loads, but I am surprised that there are no disclaimers or warnings on the Uberti site as to ammo selection for these guns. I have e-mailed customer service for acceptable ammo selections, but I've not heard back yet.

LD

 

[CraigC]

You're not restricted to cowboy loads, which are loaded well under SAAMI maximum pressures. Any standard pressure loading will be fine. Just no +P's or above.

 

[Lawdawg45]

Gents, pardon one last dumb question. Is there any difference in frame strength between the '51 Navy and the '72 open top in .38 special?

LD

 

[CraigC]

Not really. The Open Top has the advantage of a one-piece frame, versus a percussion frame with a conversion ring screwed in place but I don't think that adds up to any measurable strength advantage. The problem is that a cartridge conversion places stress on the arbor and frame that they were not designed for. Percussion guns do not induce any backthrust against the frame like the conversion does. I would treat them all the same and cannot stress that enough. If you need to be able to kill a deer with it, the big bores are the only way to go. Despite anemic paper ballistics, a 240-250gr cast bullet at 700-800fps will penetrate like a freight train. I couldn't even get a 240gr swaged SWC-HP to stop in seven milk jugs filled with water.

 

[Old Fuff]

The ability to drop a deer within reasonable range so far as power is concerned shouldn't be an issue. It was often done during the 19th century. My greater concern would be the primitive sights on these revolvers makes it difficult to precisely place a shot. For that reason alone for this purpose I'd sooner use a Ruger Blackhawk or other "modern" revolver with adjstable sights.

 

[CraigC]

My Open Top shoots to the sights, whereas the conversions still shoot high like their percussion counterparts. I would hate to know that I needed to hit a deer's vitals beyond about 25-30yds but within that range, it would suffice. Not exactly the best tool for the job though.

 

[Lawdawg45]

Again, thanks. I'll seriously look at the '72 open top in .45 Colt then, since it would match up with my Henry rifle. My only mention of carrying it while hunting would be for 2 legged protection or a close kill shot on a Deer not dispatched with my rifle. The rest will be SASS/NCOWS and plinking.

LD

 

[MCgunner]

Load some ammo with black powder. Why not? This is what a lot of follks do with conversions and conversion cylinders. It's a more convenient way to shoot than loading ball and powder as each cylinder is fired up. Don't bother me, but some folks are lazy.