1858 improperly loaded?

[Blimp Captain]

I've been a long time lurking to this website and also to KTOG.org. Anyway, I have a question that I believe you guys can help me with. I bought I Pietta Remington 1858 at Cabela's in KS about 2-3 years ago. The guy helping me said I could use the 50gr pyrodex pre-made pellets that you use in rifles sense the frame was steel and had the top strap. I have sense heard otherwise and that this puts alot of stress on my gun. What do you guys think, am I hurting the gun?

Also, I have been reading on hear about the conversion cylinders for the 1858 that use .45 Colt. I guess I don't understand this round. Is it a brass case filled with blackpowder instead of modern (smokeless) powder. The instructions with mine says not to use smokeless powder. If you shoot .45 Colt do you have to clean the gun after every trip to the range like shooting blackpowder.

Thanks for your help, this site is a great resource.

 

[Low Key]

I've never heard of using 50gr pyrodex pellets in these revolvers. They do make 30gr pellets for the revolvers and I have used them and don't like them. That being said, I would recommend against the 50gr pyrodex pellets, these were intended for use in BP rifles and although they might fit in the chambers of the 58 revolver it might not be a good idea to try this. I use loose powder to charge my guns, you get a better burn than the pellets and your charge is easily adjustable. I limit my maximum charge to 40gr of either goex BP or pyrodex p and if I happen to be using 777, I limit that to 30gr as a maximum charge.

 

[LEE3370]

1858 conversion cylinders

Yes, conversion cylinders are made for these revolvers. If you get one, you can shoot 45 long colt ammo loaded with black powder or ammo that is loaded for "cowboy" shooting. These are loaded lighter than standard 45 long colts. DON'T make the mistake of trying the standard load in the conversion.
Lee

 

[Beartracker]

Can't really ad to what Low Key has told you and he knows what he's talking about. 50g is way to much for the Remington .44. It would be great for the Walker or the new Ruger.
As far as cleaning your revolver goes, yes you do, have to clean it when you get home or very soon after. That's all part of the fun. Taking pride in how smooth you can make them operate and keeping them that way will eliminate or minimize any future problems.Mike

 

[Manyirons]

Question, IF the 50 grain pyro load would fit would'nt it be like say FFG? Slower and less pressure as it's intended for rifle?

Hell! now i've gotta know, and here is MORE $ spent with Hodgedon!

 

[Beartracker]

Manyirons, I agree that the ffg is a slower powder and less preasure than say Goex fffg or Pyrodex"P". With 40g. of fffg being what I would concider the max for my Remington .44 and do not recomend shooting it as a steady diet for any Remington shooters. That being said it would seem to me that going to 50g of ffg is still really to muchas a max. I could see and not worry about say 45g of ffg. This is all just my openion and based on what I have observed with high hunting loads in my Remington.Mike

 

[Manyirons]

Hi Beartracker! Thanks for the input. I shoot only the stainless Remmies, and 40 grains is my standard load of Swiss 3F. Local smith does all the metal testing says the Pietta or Uberti stainless guns harder/stronger than mystery metal soft blued jobs.

Course, mine have his "Reverse-Nipples" or Tubes (Per Mec, Older term) they screw in from FRONT of cylinder and rest on shoulder for strength, not depending on threads, he bores chambers a LITTLE deeper, gives ya a bit more room for powder.

Just HATE it when something like this comes up! ALWAYS have to run some especially over chronograph just to find out whats going on!

 

[BP Hunter]

i understand that we all have to clean our guns after each shooting session. but with the cowboy loads that are used on the conversion cylinders, do you still hvae to clean them after each shooting session?

 

[Beartracker]

BPH, Guess I should have answered you a little better than I did. This old brain kicks out of gear every now and then.
Yes, you still want to clean your gun due to the fact that it is a brass case (shell) that is still loaded with BP and not smokless. It wont be as bad or hard to clean but it will rust much faster than smokless just the same.Mike

 

[Blimp Captain]

So let me get this straight, the .45 Colt conversion still has to be cleaned after each trip? They don't make .45 Colt that is smokeless that will work with these conversions?

As yes the 50gr. pellets do fit and work well, I've been to the range twice with them. I drop the pellet in, put a prelubed felt patch and then the ball, and then crisco (which makes a mess). I was just hoping it wasn't stressing the gun. After what you guys said I will probably quite doing this. Thanks for the information.

I wonder why the guy at Cabela's told me that though??? Thats what he outfitted me with to go shoot that gun.

 

[georgeduz]

i dont use that much in my ruger old army,40 grs fff ,crisco is a mess,now i just cover the balls in beeswax,let them dry with a light coat,and i have used no lube at all.but in the end ill stick with light coat of beeswax.u might want to check out Manyirons old posts he has alot of usefull loads for many different pistols.i would forget about the 45 Colt conversion and enjoy your BP pistol

 

[Weird Guy]

There are more than just one way to make a "cowboy" loaded cartridge.

1. Loaded with blackpowder. This is the old way it was done back when cartridges first came out, because smokeless powder had not been invented yet. Some companies make these loads today for people to buy for the abiance of that smoke cloud.

2. Low power, but modern smokeless powder. This is a light load of the stuff, perhaps also containing a retarding agent to make it burn slower. Either way it is smokeless powder, but it isn't going to overstress your gun. I believe they still send the bullet downrange at a respectable velocity of 900 feet per second or so.

I wouldn't use a pelet. First of all it is not intended to be used in revolvers.

It is also too large of a load to use. 40 grains seem to be the max you can fit in a revolver cylinder. Also, I have heard mixed reviews of the pelets performance, but that might be just a certain manufacturers problem, and not pelets in general.

As for why the guy told you to use the stuff, he is just a salesman. He was trying to sell you something. Period. He is a SALESMAN! That is really all you need to know. Maybe he thought that mentioning an easy way to load the revolver might convince you to buy one?

 

[Father Knows Best]

Weird Guy is right. You can use "cowboy" smokeless loads in the .45 Colt conversion cylinders. These are low power, low velocity (typically 750 fps or so) loads.

Also, what's the big deal about cleaning up after black powder? I do it all the time. With a little practice, it is quick and easy. I shoot black powder cartridges (.44 Russian, .44-40 and 12 gauge) in my cowboy guns (Uberti 1866 rifle, hammered coach shotgun, Remington 1875 single action revolvers). It takes me less than 30 minutes to clean all of them after a match.

 

[Beartracker]

Shooting smokeless powder in a BP gun just ain't right and you will go to hell for doing that!!

 

[drdirk]

smokeless load vs BP

I have a Ruger Old Army that I shoot with BP and the conversion cylinder. When I shoot the conversion cylinder I typically shoot a relatively light load of 5.5 gr Win 231 and a 200 gr lead bullet. It works well and has hardly any kick. I have not reloaded BP and to me, it is either the real thing, BP suffed in the cyclinder or the easy to clean conversion cylinder with smokeless.

So, start rolling your own and don't pay $17 for a box of "cowboy loads". Fun too!

 

[Father Knows Best]

Shooting smokeless powder in a BP gun just ain't right and you will go to hell for doing that!!

Roger that! Heck, I believe in shooting black powder only in all firearms that were originally designed for it. That's why I roll my own black powder cartridges in .44 Russian, .44-40, .45 Colt, .45-70 and 12 gauge. I just love the BOOOOOM and wonderful aroma of black powder....

 

[gmatov]

If you really don't want to clean your guns after you shoot, there are about 2000 smokeless rounds to choose from.

Which do you like?

You shoot a BP or substitute load in a capped revolver, residue blasts out of the chambers and out the cylinder barrel gap, goes everywhere. You shoot BP or subs in a bored thru cylinder, with brass casings, the residue blasts out of the cylinder barrel gap, goes the same places.

Those same places gotta be cleaned, but now you gotta clean your brass, also, or it's all crudded up, might not be reloadable for the next shoot.

Was on a site yesterday, had a poll on how they treated their shells after a shoot. Man, they have 6 or 8 hours of shell conditioning before they can even get to cleaning their guns, in the same way we do. And they do clean them in about the same way most of us do, plenty of hot water, some use soap, and most use liberal amounts of lube.

No free lunch. TANSTAAFL.

Cheers,

George

 

[Father Knows Best]

Was on a site yesterday, had a poll on how they treated their shells after a shoot. Man, they have 6 or 8 hours of shell conditioning before they can even get to cleaning their guns, in the same way we do. And they do clean them in about the same way most of us do, plenty of hot water, some use soap, and most use liberal amounts of lube.

What is "shell conditioning" and why does it take 6 or 8 hours?

 

[Snowdog]

Unless I was using a Ruger Old Army, I wouldn't dream of using 50gr of Pyrodex from my cap and ball... heck, I wouldn't use it for the Ruger either truth be known.

Last time I took my Pietta 1858 to the range, I found 35gr of Pyrodex pistol under .454 Hornady round ball to be the hottest I felt comfortable with.

If you're just planning to plink, 30 grains of Pyrodex should be plenty.

 

[gmatov]

FNB,

It seems that they will take a jug of soapy water with them, when they have fired a round, they take the empties and dump them in the soapy jug of water.

When they have finished the shoot, they go home, and they shake the shells, and they rinse hell out of the shells, then they put the shells in a tumbler, some dry, with dry media, some wet, with wet media. Individuals have theiir own ideas.

Regardless, they spend way MORE time than we do cleaning their weapons. Well, maybe their weapons and their casings. A pistol should be less than a half an hour, the water gets cold.

CHeers,

George

 

[Duncaninfrance]

FNB,

A pistol should be less than a half an hour, the water gets cold.

CHeers,

George

Cleaning is also designed to get you out of 'nagging distance' from the wife! If she offers to clean your gunsuhoh: ) just tell her that you got em dirty so it is only fair that you clean them!
( Don't forget however that the main reason women get married in white is that most domestic appliances come in white!! )

And with that sexist remark I will probably be struck off the register!!
Keep smiling
Duncan

 

[Father Knows Best]

Regardless, they spend way MORE time than we do cleaning their weapons. Well, maybe their weapons and their casings. A pistol should be less than a half an hour, the water gets cold.

Odd. I shoot a lot of black powder cartridge. My process for brass cleaning is quite simple. When I get home, I dump the brass in a bucket with some Simple Green and enough warm water to cover the brass. I swish everything around a little bit and dump the water out. I repeat once with just water. I then dump it all out on an old towel and leave it alone for a few days to dry. At some point, I'll dump it in the tumbler with some corncob media and a spritz of brass polish. The only difference between my process for smokeless cartridges and my process for black powder cartridges is the wash/rinse when I get home, and that takes all of about 5-10 minutes max for several hundred cases. I gladly spend that 5-10 minutes for the satisfaction that comes from shooting several hundred rounds of hand-rolled black powder ammo from my revolvers and rifles. While I enjoy cap and ball, too, my time at the range is limited and I generally prefer to spend it shooting instead of reloading.

I clean my firearms right at the range, and it takes me less than 30 minutes to clean two revolvers, a rifle and shotgun that were all used with black powder. We have a cleaning station that is basically a closet with a laundry tub in it and very hot water on tap. A hose on the faucet makes rinsing barrels and cylinders quick and easy. Unlike smokeless residue, black powder fouling rinses out quickly and easily with hot water and a single pass of the bore snake. Then just dry and oil, and you're done.

 

[Old Dragoon]

FKB<
Thanks for the heads up I wondered if I should wash my BP cartridges before I tumble them, May be too late for some but they'll be swimming shortly.

Wonder if I have had any deterioration of the cases for not washing them sooner?

 

[Manyirons]

Cleaning is also designed to get you out of 'nagging distance' from the wife! If she offers to clean your gunsuhoh: ) just tell her that you got em dirty so it is only fair that you clean them!
( Don't forget however that the main reason women get married in white is that most domestic appliances come in white!! )

And with that sexist remark I will probably be struck off the register!!
Keep smiling
Duncan

OH-HELL Duncan! Were i to repeat THAT would be handed my head!

 

[Father Knows Best]

FKB<
Thanks for the heads up I wondered if I should wash my BP cartridges before I tumble them, May be too late for some but they'll be swimming shortly.

Wonder if I have had any deterioration of the cases for not washing them sooner?

I dunno about deterioration. In fact, I don't know that washing them is necessary at all. I started doing it because someone once told me I should, but I've since come to believe that there isn't much benefit, other than removing mud. In fact, I generally rinse my brass whether they were loaded with smokeless or black powder. That's because I am a cowboy action shooter, and my rifle brass winds up on the ground during each stage, where it gets trampled on. Someone always picks it up and brings it to me at the unloading table, but by then it is often quite dirty. To maximize the life of my tumbler media, I do a quick dunk-and-rinse before tumbling.

I know some guys who claim never to wash (or even tumble) their black powder brass, unless it has obvious dirt/mud on it. They don't seem to have any case life problems, and they like the "rustic" look of the tarnished cases on their belts a lot better than the shiny look of new brass.