1858 Pietta questions

[Bullseye]

Here I just bought a pretty BP pistol off a great seller on THR.
Never been fired and I have a few questions.

1. I was thinking of getting a conversion cylinder but I have two 45 LC revolvers already so there's no real reason for me to do that. I do reload but if I'm going to make some blackpowder cartridges, I'd rather spend the time making up smokeless.
My thinking is if I load plinking smokeless handloads the whole cleaning process and preparation is different to switch from BP to smokeless and back again.
I bought it for BP shooting purposes anyway so I can live without a conversion cylinder even if I do want to pretend I'm Clint Eastwood up against Stockburn's men.


2. I read here on a couple posts that I should lube up this gun after cleaning with some kind of vegetable oil instead of the usual Rem oil I use on my modern firearms.
Did these Pietta and Uberti etc. BP revolvers come packed and lubed from the factory lubed with different oils than what typical smokeless come new?

3. I have lead bullets that came as a bonus. They weigh 195 gr. They measure in my calipers and easy .457 and so do the balls that I was given.
I read that .458 was about max for this revolver and that surprised me. I have a few balls around that are .451 from an 1851 Navy I used to own and they went into the cylinders easy enough but I do remember the conical bullets I had back then were a bit tough to seat. They were probably wider than the leftover balls I have.
I remember worrying that I would bust the lever trying to push them down.
There were shaved rings on the cylinder that I had to wipe off from the diameter. I see this is actually normal on a youtube vid, I just have to get the shavings rings out of the way before turning.
What size lead and weight is OK to shoot?

4. I have these and I am sure there is a limit as to what I can push or use.
Here's an attachment image of what I have.
I am only planning to shoot the revolver without over doing things. I am only shooting paper and don't need to really take out Stockburn's deputies.

See attachment
A. 200 gr powder coated .452
B. 137 gr Cabelas all natural lubed .451 round balls
C. 140 gr raw .455 round balls
D. 195 gr conical .457 bullets
E. 230 gr ALOX coated .452 gr round nose (45 acp lead) 230 gr. bullets that are .662 in length.

Can I put 20-25 gr measured FFFg Elephant Blackpowder under ALL OF THESE and seal up the outside of my cylinder to prevent chainfire. Or are any specifically unsafe to use? Recommended starting loads are appreciated. Using No.11 magnum CCI primer caps.

Don't think I am crazy ... I already am skeptical about using those round nose and powder coated bullets but it's best to ask before finding out anyways.

Thanks!

 

[Tommygunn]

2. I read here on a couple posts that I should lube up this gun after cleaning with some kind of vegetable oil instead of the usual Rem oil I use on my modern firearms.
Did these Pietta and Uberti etc. BP revolvers come packed and lubed from the factory lubed with different oils than what typical smokeless come new?

I don't know if Uberti uses the same preservative as Pietta ... doesn't really matter as both guns should be thoroughly cleaned off prior to use.
I'm not sure why you couldn't use Remoil to lube the revolver with before shooting. I usually just use Hoppes. But I thoroughly clean all my BP revolvers after I shoot 'em -- and then spray 'em with preservative. So, yup, prior to shooting they get a good cleaning and lubing as well.
It occurs to me some kinds of vegetable oils turn to muck and bind up over time ...maybe I am mis-remembering things though. Cleaning up these guns and keeping them running really isn't hard though. I just pretend that no oil/preservative lasts forever and make sure whether shooting, or storing, they are in good shape.

 

[xxmaa]

R B = faster reloads an higher vel. For me! I love shooting bullets ;cast from Lee molds. Cartridge type projectiles are a waste of time and lead(PTA) to load straight! Procure a lee sizer die , for the chambers of the cylinder. You want to shave A thin ring. The sizer for bullets! If those bullets are not heeled or rebated for gas checks , use em in , .45 colts or 45/70 Gov. Or some thing. Get the 200 gr lee mold for the pietta and you won't need a sizer. I shoot conicals in a .36 pietta 1/30 an they make round holes!

 

[Bullseye]

Cartridge type projectiles are a waste of time and lead(PTA) to load straight!

I guess this means I should be better off not messing with the powder coated or alox .452 bullets that I can use in 45 auto or LC cases.

Then I shall plan to lube like any other revolver but in cleaning the barrel and cylinder and gap area, I'll be using black powder solvent and some rubbing alcohol. Thanks you guys

 

[xxmaa]

Sig.. I for got the lube part; keep black powder , implements away from petroleum products, use mutton tallow or crisco. Mutton tallow seems better in hot weather than borebutter aka T17 by TC. I also use grapeseed oil , tea tree oil for a solvent ( sparingly) it's expensive ! Any thing not petroleum. The baby poop smell is from petroleum products combining with B.P. into sulfuric acid. Which will eat you weapon in short order. If I smell the rotten egg ; it goes back into boiling hot water an ivory soap! My revolvers never bind up, if you use p.- PI roe dex your doomed to clean right after shooting . The stuff is terrible .

 

[Bullseye]

I just came home from the gun shop. I bought a big bottle of Bore Tech Inc. Black powder solvent. Has directions on the bottle.

My question is still about wiping down the firearm with a gun cloth.

Should it be different oil than I use on my smokeless firearms. Something like extra virgin olive oil or vegetable oil or even Crisco.
I am going to use some kind of recommended grease to seal up the cylinder over the balls or bullets. I have some of that stuff on hand. I also put some of that stuff in the grooves of the conical bullets.

 

[rodwha]

I use Ballistol throughout. It's not great at long term.

One nice thing I was told (and tried) is using it to preserve it if you don't have time to clean it when you get home.

Another good thing is that it mixes with water. After the water evaporates it leaves the oil.

 

[BSA1]

Yep. You are making it way to hard.

Degrease gun of all oil and grease.

Ballistol is all you need oiling the 1858. I use it straight from a spray can with the little straw on the nozzle to get a squirt into the action. You can use it to make moose milk with 10 parts water to one part Ballistol.

Bore Butter works better in hot weather. Crisco turns too runny. I use lubed felt wads as they are a lot less messy and easy to use.

As said you want the round balls to shave a lead ring when seated.

Oh I forgot to add that I just use a old silicon gun cloth to wipe down the exterior. It has been sprayed with different oils over the years so I just spray a shot of Ballistol on it and wipe my fingerprints off of the exterior surfaces.

 

[Bullseye]

OK OK OK .... I ordered Ballistol and 3 diff bore snakes on Amazon to get free ship.
I'm good to go.

 

[rodwha]

Spray the base pin with Ballistol while at the range and it will help keep you shooting longer. That's the one fault of the Remington as that little pin easily accumulates fouling and will bind up around the 3rd cylinder.

 

[Ian83]

As far as oil is concerned, I've found that vegetable based oils will seep into the steel, which has microscopic pores. Much like those old cast iron pans that would season from use. Petroleum based oils will strip this seasoning away, making them more prone to wear in the future.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

1. I was thinking of getting a conversion cylinder but I have two 45 LC revolvers already so there's no real reason for me to do that. I do reload but if I'm going to make some blackpowder cartridges, I'd rather spend the time making up smokeless.
My thinking is if I load plinking smokeless handloads the whole cleaning process and preparation is different to switch from BP to smokeless and back again.

I can't tell you what to do, but I can tell you what I did with my Armi San Marco 1858 and conversion cylinder, and reloading.

At the time I bought my cylinder, the instructions said either black powder, or commercially loaded smokeless ammunition for CAS competition only...

OK so they can't control me making a mistake...so they would prefer I don't reload ammunition with smokeless for their product...but I already had a load in smokeless for CAS.

So when I checked the Hodgdon Cowboy Action Manual, it listed 6.4 grains of Universal at 5,700 c.u.p. in a .45 Colt cartridge using a 200 grain, round nosed bullet. But, 35 grains of a black powder substitute, Triple 7, had a pressure of 8,700 c.u.p. with a 200 grain LSWC bullet. Pyrodex Select with 37 grains and a 250 grain lead bullet in a .45 Colt cartridge was showing 9,800 c.u.p pressure. So I figured my 5,700 c.u.p. loads were acceptable, even if smokeless.

LD

 

[BCRider]

Your taps are full of the only black powder fouling solvent you'll ever need. But you've already bought a can of the store stuff so you may as well use that up first.

Canola oil works wondrously at keeping the cylinder turning freely for a day of shooting. But so does Ballistol. I use the Canola oil because it's a little less runny than Ballistol and I have it around for cooking anyway. The Canola oil cuts through BP fouling like a hot knife through warm butter.

BUT.... it does go sticky over time if not packed away from sun and air. I use it for lubricating my gun only if I'll be shooting it for sure again within a week. It's especially nice to use for the evening cleaning at a two day weekend shoot. It'll also work well for a swab down to hold it for a proper cleaning once you get back home from such trips since it can be a day or two before I can clean it at home.

Funny story but in looking up Canola oil as a lubricant I came across a story about it being used heavily in the steam valving on merchant ships in WWII. Turns out it resisted washing away in the valves despite the "steam cleaning action" and high temperatures. I know that means little in terms of our guns but it did boost my confidence level for using it.

I have seen zero evidence that Ballistol gums up over time. At least not in terms of some months worth of storage. And I shoot my guns more often than it takes to see any signs of gumming up.

Given enough years many oils will oxidize and gum up. I'm sure Ballistol will too with enough years of sitting around. Especially if exposed to UV light from the sun.

The guys have already touched on the bullet choices. But I'd like to offer up this for you to consider.

Bullets in casings rely on neck tension to hold them in place. The crimp is only a little added insurance. But since you're reloading every time you shoot and the cylinder won't stretch the only way to get the right neck tension on a front stuffer is to rely on the force of the bullet against the chamber walls. Hence the need to rely on shaving some lead to obtain the perfect fit each time and for each chamber.

It takes quite a good force to shear off the lead though. It's hard enough if the ball is a hair large or is made from anything but pure lead or the softest of the lead alloys. It's going to be pretty tough to ensure a good fit with the sized and coated bullets you're considering. You'd have to size them JUST RIGHT to fit the chambers of the gun.

Regular cast bullets have riding bands that are too wide to shave off with reasonable ram pressure. So those are non starters.

The bullets intended for lubricating with Alox have narrow ribs which might shave well if cast in pure or soft lead. But I don't think Alox is BP compatible. So it's likely that the Alox will combine with the fouling to form a tar like deposit that affects the shooting of the gun and is a bear to clean away later on.

Another issue with bullets intended for cartridge loading is that they will be difficult to start and ram squarely into the chambers. The conicals intended for our guns have a smaller pilot at the base to deal with this issue. The conicals also have narrow riding bands that will shear off neatly and a bigger and fatter lube groove for a generous amount of BP friendly bullet lube.

Not to mention that almost all bullets intended for cartridge reloading are going to be too long to fit in under the barrel ram opening.

All of which is to suggest that if you want to shoot the gun with BP in the BP front stuffing manner that you should just go with the historically proven options.

In the end I think you'll be amazed at how well round ball does shoot from these guns. When you find the right charge for the best accuracy you're going to find, like I did, that they shoot every bit as accurately as fine shooting modern guns.

I know that both of my 1860's launching round ball shoot trim little groups that are equal to what I can manage with my Model 19 shooting good SWC target shooting rounds. I'm talking all the holes in a 1.5" circle from 15 yards. Which is probably more a reflection of my accuracy than the gun.

 

[Bullseye]

Awesome comments from everyone. I am sticking with balls and conical bullets designed for this blackpowder revolver.

Last night I loaded up a cylinder. I will shoot this unfired Pietta 1858 Rem for the first time today. I have 22-23 gr volume FFFg Elephant brand Blackpowder topped with a round pad/patch rammed down to compress the powder with my new cylinder loading tool. Topped with a round .457 lead ball and rammed to meet the patch. I then sealed with a generous amount of muzzle loading lube.

Before I fire, I am going to spray some Ballistol on the base pin.
I got the impression, that I don't have a whole lot of BP in the cylinders. Hopefully, there's enough to do what I set out to do.
I'll report back later. The only mistake I think I made was not lubing the lead balls a little between my fingers before ramming them. There's plenty in front of them but I do think they would have seated and shaved off the ring of lead a lot easier had I done so.
No 11 caps are pinched a little between my fingers so they hold better but the seem to fit and hold without the pinch too.

My hammer sits between cylinders in a notch. I will wear safety glasses and hearing protection and try to hit a freshly painted square steel gong 40 yds down the hill out back. I am going to clean it up right away after shooting.

 

[rodwha]

You may want to reshape the nose of your hammer to better fit in the safety notches if you'll be using them. Pietta didn't do a very good job with this and so there's just not much purchase. A fellow utilizing them dropped his and it fired.

Pietta is also bad about the design of the frame for using conicals. I had to rework the frame to accept my bullets which are much shorter than average ones (170 grn is 0.400" and the 195 grn is 0.460" long).

 

[Caliper_Mi]

What size lead and weight is OK to shoot?


Can I put 20-25 gr measured FFFg Elephant Blackpowder under ALL OF THESE and seal up the outside of my cylinder to prevent chainfire. Or are any specifically unsafe to use? Recommended starting loads are appreciated. Using No.11 magnum CCI primer caps.

Any lead projectile that shaves a ring is safe to shoot. If it doesn't chave a ring off, you've 100% got to seal the chamber with something. Measure your cylinder and see if a .451 ball will do the trick. Not sure about the powder coated bullet, I've never seen any leading on a BP gun and have always used straight lead so never tried anything else. Don't see what it would hurt though.

15-20 grains sounds like a fine starting load. Honestly, 20-25 grains could be a starting load as well. Some guys find good accuracy with the lighter loads but I've never really liked downloading into mousefart territory. This isn't like working up a smokeless load - the cylinders aren't big enough to overcharge the pistol and still be able to seat a ball! Just remember that BP chages must ALWAYS be compressed! You can either ram the projectile down to meet the powder or add some flour or a fiber wad on top of the powder to get the ball closer to the top of the cylinder for better accuracy. Me, I preferr to add more black powder, YMMV.


For cleaning, my preference is straight water. A drop of soap if things are *REALLY* stubborn, but I haven't used soap in a long time. Clean all the fouling off, dry it, then I drop it in the oven on low to heat it and ensure all water is gone. While it's hot, I lightly coat the metal in either TC Wonderlube or olive oil. The oil will season the metal after a while and it resists corrosion and fouling even better.

 

[Bullseye]

Well, I got out back and emptied the gun. It was so refreshing to smell the blackpowder clouds. The load I used worked just fine. I could see using the full 30 gr nozzle of powder no problem. The caps all stayed on. It was just great but I did NOT hit the target. With the smoke, I have no idea how far I missed the 9" x 9" hanging steel, but it couldn't have been by much. I'll have to shoot at plywood and paper next time to get my sight picture.
Hey this was fun!
The revolver is cleaned up as per recommended THR comments and put away. I'll give it another once over later. I used hot soapy water, black powder solvent and Ballistol. Pretty sure I got all the water out but another blast of Ballistol and a wipe down will make sure of rust prevention.

You may want to reshape the nose of your hammer to better fit in the safety notches if you'll be using them.

I think that from now on, I will load at the shooting bench. I have two cylinders and this seems to be more of a Deputy Droopalong kind of sport. I had the time last night to load up at my desk to watch what I was doing more comfortably.

You can either ram the projectile down to meet the powder or add some flour or a fiber wad on top of the powder to get the ball closer to the top of the cylinder for better accuracy.

Yes my lead was pretty far down into the cylinder holes. Might explain the target still looking freshly painted.

 

[TOOT44]

cleaning

where can I buy BALISTOL?

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

where can I buy BALISTOL?

MidwayUSA has it and it seems to go on sale often. I seem to add a can with just about every order I place with them.

 

[rodwha]

I like the non aerosol type. I haven't looked too hard, but I've only found it on Amazon.

 

[Bullseye]

That's where I got it ... amazon