1858 Remington for wildlife defense

[ldlfh7]

I am getting ready to visit a relative in the mountains and would like to bring a sidearm for critter protection. Looking for thoughts on carrying the 58 Remington with a round 454 ball over 42 grains FFF pyrodex.I shoot this load frequently ans accurately to a reasonable distance.

 

[MCgunner]

I'm sure it'd work well against big cats, mountain lions, but for bear, I'd want more. I'd take my Blackhawk in .45 Colt with hot 300 grain handloads, myself. If I just wanted a cap and ball to impress the relatives, or something, I'd have more faith in my ROA with 220 grain conicals and a full compressed charge of 777. It's a cannon with that load. I usually shoot both my ROA and my Pietta Remmy with 30 grains of Pyrodex and cornmeal filler with a RB. The Ruger is accurate with anything, but the Pietta really wakes up with that load accuracy wise.

But, ya know, that Remmy with that charge would be better'n nuttin'. Better than a .38 special, better than a 9mm. I mean, I don't think you'll get ate by a bear, anyway. I never really worried about bears in New Mexico or Big Bend, but then, neither is Alaska. Big difference in a black bear and a big griz.

Rambling thoughts, I guess. Sorta depends on the critters you're worried about, though.

 

[snakeman]

I would!

 

[splattergun]

What sort of critters? Usually, it's the 2 legged kind that ya need to worry about most. Even in bear and cat country.

 

[ldlfh7]

Black bears and cats. Figure a black bear probably wound not just attack me unprovoked and the 58 may scare off a cat with sound even if I don't hit it.

 

[RPRNY]

Yes, it will do very nicely for most anything but Grizzly. If you would feel comfortable with 45acp, you can feel comfortable with an 1858:



Typical Factory and Reload for 45ACP:
Taurus 1911 Winchester (white box) 230 gr FMJ 780 ft/s 310 ft-lbs

Taurus 1911 Federal (brown box) 230 gr FMJ 795 ft/s 322 ft-lbs

Taurus 1911 Unique 6 gr 230 gr HP 846 ft/s 366 ft-lbs

1858 Remington 44 Cal 8" bbl:
45 grain 3F Pyrodex 143 grain, .457 ball 1081 ft/s 371 ft-lbs

1858 Remington 44 Cal 5.5" bbl:
42 grains 3F Pyrodex 143 grain, .457 ball 1019 ft/s 329 ft-lbs

More data here:

http://poconoshooting.com/blackpowderballistics.html

As per above, the more likely threat is two legged, and the 1858 will be very effective against such critters. Round ball isn't ideal for penetration, but does nasty stuff to soft targets. Conicals will do a better job of penetrating and if brown bears are in play, I'd counsel some 205 gr conicals.

1858 Remington 44 cal 8 " bbl
45 grain 3F Pyrodex 190 grain conical 1013 ft/s 433 ft-lbs

 

[MCgunner]

Yes, it will do very nicely for most anything but Grizzly. If you would feel comfortable with 45acp, you can feel comfortable with an 1858:

Well, see, if a large black bear was running at me, I wouldn't really feel that good about my .45ACP, rather have one of my .357s or a hot loaded .45 Colt. But, that's just me I suppose.

But, really, I agree that bears ain't really a threat and, yeah, hell, between the noise and the smoke, you really don't have to HIT him. Biggest threat ANYwhere, even Alaska, is of the bipedal variety.

Hey, maybe you could mix some pepper gas, maybe ground cayanne in with the powder.

 

[goon]

I'm not sure what the penetration of a soft lead .454 round ball is. Looking at the ballistics on paper, they're only about the equivalent of a .38 Special 158 grain load. I know the ball starts out sort of already expanded and they were known to be effective against people. I'd say if it's all you have, you're going to have to use it. If you've got a .357 or bigger cartridge handgun though, use that instead.

FWIW, I've never been threatened by a bear. I'm more comfortable around them armed, but I think they get a lot of bad press. A handgun is always secondary to common sense.

 

[rodwha]

Using a hotter powder (Swiss, Olde Eynsford, or Triple 7) is the beginning.

A RB ought to be plenty except for a moderately sized black bear. But I wouldn't want a Lee RN conical for that, which is why I'm having a mold made from Accurate Molds with a heavier FN design.

Just buying bullets I'd buy the ones Kaido casts and sells (240 grn FN). If not his then the ones DD4 sells which are 195 grn SWC's.

You'd want some good penetration for bears.

 

[Crawdad1]

I wouldn't hesitate to take a 45 caliber Remington or Colt revolver.

 

[Noz]

I love my cap and ball revolvers BUT if you are expecting to be placed in a*life threatening situation(and you obviously are since you feel the need to be armed) just remember that there were good reasons for the acceptance of cartridge guns after their invention.
I would carry something over .40 with a heavy for caliber bullet in a revolver.
My choice would be a Smith 657 with a 260 gr WFN bullet over a whole lot of W296.

 

[44 Dave]

My experience with Wisconsin black bears is they don't like rubber buck shot. The sow and cubs that I "trained" never came back to my yard but still bothered my neighbors.
I think one chamber with something like #4 shot for bears and snakes and the other 5 with killer loads and carry that Remy with the hammer in the notch before the shot load.

 

[J-Bar]

Bears and snakes are in their dens at this time of year, mountain lions are mostly nocturnal. I would be more worried about pit bulls protecting meth labs and pot hot houses, and the folks that operate them.

I guess you did not mention which mountains you are visiting, though...

 

[goon]

The other thing about black bears... lots of times a loud noise is all it takes to discourage them. The Remington can give you that for sure!

I've never been threatened by one myself, even the ones that were only feet away. It's good to be armed in bear country, but I've felt more threatened by people than by bears.

 

[Modernhoglegs]

Paper Punchers

Consider that the '58 Remmie clone firing a roundball is a .38 Special on paper, but it is still throwing a bullet that meets most of the modern definitions of a good defense bullet.

1. It has a large diameter (.45")
2. It has a large "meplat" since it lacks a pointed/tapered nose.
3. Will most likely expend 100% of its energy in the target.

In his book "Sixguns", Elmer Keith quoted two veterans of the War of Southern Independence as stating the .36 1851 Navy was a better man-killer than any .38 Special they had seen. The round ball was reputed to deliver more shock that the conical shape bulled from the Special.

I would say the greatest potential weakness is a lack of penetration, but a solid lead bullet has a lot of momentum for its size. If historical records are to be believed .36 - .45 caliber roundballs from rifles were considered moose and bear medicine east of the Mississippi for a long time.

I think you will be adequately protected against anything short of a bear. If I was worried about a bear problem I would most likely take a 12ga with Brenneke slugs.

 

[Armored farmer]

I am fortunate to have several handguns, and the short 1858 is probably one of my favorites. Hands down.
Yes, I know it is not quite as reliable.
Yes, I know it is not quite as powerful.
Yes, I know it is slower to reload.
Yes, I would carry for animal defense....but I would also have pepper spray if truly in 'bear country'.

 

[rodwha]

They are only similar to a .38 if you use weak powder. If you use a sporting grade powder such as Swiss, Olde Eynsford, or Triple 7 you can surpass the performance of a .45 Colt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP_dwo2nThA

Look at the ballistics given by Mike Beliveau when using Old Armies and Goex and Triple 7, and his T7 results are with a reduced charge which isn't necessary in a Ruger.

And if you were really wanting some power you could buy a cylinder from Classic Ballistix which has deeper chambers. I'm told this, with T7, can give over 700 ft/lbs with a heavy bullet (~255 grns IIRC). Without it you can possibly get about 550 ft/lbs with that 255 grn bullet.

 

[RPRNY]

Please see my post above. You can exceed factory 45ACP velocity and ft/lbs with Pyrodex in a standard 1858 8"

 

[MCgunner]

They are only similar to a .38 if you use weak powder. If you use a sporting grade powder such as Swiss, Olde Eynsford, or Triple 7 you can surpass the performance of a .45 Colt.

Even my weak load, 8.3 grains Unique and a 255 grain flat nose makes over 400 ft lbs and does it with a nice, LONG 255 grain chunk of lead. Now, a compressed charge 777 pushes a 220 grain cast conical up in the 700 ft lb range in the ROA with the Ruger cylinder, but the .45 Colt surpasses 1000 ft lbs from a 7" Contender barrel, .44 magnum territory, with a 300 grain Hornady XTP over a heavy charge of 2400 and I COuLD probably push it a little harder if I wanted, too. I really don't want to. Nothing I can't kill around here with that load and I don't shoot it much at targets, stick with the lighter load in my Ruger Blackhawk..

Even though cylinder volume is similar in the '58 vs the ROA, I've never tried to push it like I have the ROA. The ROA is a very strong gun. I have no reason, really, to stress it OR the '58 with this heavy a charge, just wanted to see what it'd do. If I hunted with a cap and ball, however, I'd use this charge in the ROA. One problem, by the 4th round, the bullets are pulling enough in the cylinders to start interfering with cylinder rotation. Don't have this problem with hot .45 loads in my Blackhawk or my TC Contender.

In my particular '58, one of the 5.5" Piettas Cabelas made the mistake of putting on sale at $179 once....a charge of 30 grains Pyrodex, cornmeal filler, and a RB seems to be best for accuracy giving me 2.5" groups at 25 yards, pretty respectable. Conicals don't work as well, nor do heavier loads. It seems to prefer the RB over 25-30 grains Pyrodex. Full power loads push 4" groups and the conical opens that to 5". I prefer the better accuracy of the 30 grain charge and, well, I don't hunt anything, but paper and the occasional chlorox bottle with it. I do keep it loaded hanging from my bed post in a very Hollywoodish buscadero rig. That's partly for looks, just looks cool, but also, it's the first gun I could reach should I need it. My .38 snubby is in the beside drawer or in my pants pocket by the bed and my shotgun is a couple of steps from the bed. I'm very confident the gun will go bang. I seal it with clear nail polish. Recently shot it after hanging there for over 9 months. It fired like a cartridge revolver. I also have no doubt that it carries plenty of punch for an intruder in the very low possibility that I might need it for that.

I agree with kbbailey, I love this thing. It's handsome, shoots GREAT, but I keep it loaded to its sweet spot for accuracy and the charge is easy on the gun. It's all steel, so I don't need to baby the thing, just see no need to stress it. I'm still kicking around the thought of getting a .45 ACP conversion for it, but I think I've about gotten over that desire. I'd saved some money up, but then I had to buy two registrations for a car and a motorcycle, so I spent what was left on an egg incubator I've been wanting for the chickens. And so it goes.....LOL

 

[rodwha]

I've read that the problem with the Pietta '58's not shooting conicals well is that they have a slower twist (1:30?). Since twist works with length of projectile I'm wondering how the wide FN bullets I'll be having Accurate make for me.

As it is now it would weigh 180 grns cast from WW's, but be the length of a ball (.460"). I'll be having it modified and will be a little heavier. I'm guessing that in pure lead it ought to weigh in excess of 200 grns (I'm not sure how much difference WWs make vs pure, but I'd guess 10% might not be too far).

I've read conflicting things on the velocity that Pyrodex can give. In many I see that it compares well to standard Goex.

 

[Modernhoglegs]

Berry Perfect Plated Bullets

A friend of mine turned up at the range one day with a box of Berry's Perfect Plated bullets. I think they were in the 160gr range. They looked like tiny Foster shotgun slugs.

We shot them out of my Ruger Old Army and his Uberti '58 Remington replica. We could only load about 25gr fffg powder under them and used over chamber grease.
Accuracy wasn't great, but we weren't doing serious load development. He bought the bullets for his 45acp, and didn't like them, so he decided to try them with the percussion guns.

 

[Flashbak]

I'm not sure what the penetration of a soft lead .454 round ball is. Looking at the ballistics on paper, they're only about the equivalent of a .38 Special 158 grain load. I know the ball starts out sort of already expanded and they were known to be effective against people. I'd say if it's all you have, you're going to have to use it. If you've got a .357 or bigger cartridge handgun though, use that instead.

FWIW, I've never been threatened by a bear. I'm more comfortable around them armed, but I think they get a lot of bad press. A handgun is always secondary to common sense.

There are a ton of vids showing the penetration of 1851's, 58's and 60's on YouTube. There's one done by a seal where he puts an 1860 up against an M9. And the 1860 was comparable in the amount of overpenetration.

Lead balls, normal lead balls from Hornady etc don't show a great deal of deformation especially in balistics gel. Every one I have seen the only marks being the ring from seating and rifling.

 

[MCgunner]

Lead balls, normal lead balls from Hornady etc don't show a great deal of deformation especially in balistics gel. Every one I have seen the only marks being the ring from seating and rifling.

My own home cast .454" RB would surely not deform much. I have a hard time finding reasonably priced pure lead, but alloys seem to shoot well in my revolvers if a bit harder to load.

 

[Pulp]

One thing to think about, any handgun can kill an angry bear, but probably not in your lifetime.

 

[IROCZ]

I would have no qualms about carrying my carefully loaded 58 Rem Uberti. 35gr. of 3f with a wonderwad and roundball. But I wouldn't pick a fight with a bear!