1874 Sharps 45-70 Essentials

[Seadog76]

Hello All,

Hoping to find someone with vast knowledge on BPCR Reloading Essentials. I just placed my order for a Shiloh Sharps Hartford Model, 45-70, 28" barrel. I will be using it for the pure joy of shooting black powder ammunition and hunting.

I have years of experience reloading smokeless cartridges but zero experience reloading BPCR. Here are my questions:

1. I'm looking at the RCBS Leagacy "Cowboy" dies.

Is this a good choice or is there a better set out there?

2. All my smokeless powder reloading manuals (Hornady, Nosler, Speer, etc.) give me detailed information on reloading certain bullets with various powder charges, C.O.A.L. etc.

Is there a BPCR Manual or is it just working up loads in increments until the right pet load is found for a particular rifle?

3. I'm a bit confused on compression depths.

Can someone explain in detail how to achieve, measure, eliminate space between bullet and powder, etc.

4. Is a grease cookie the way to go or just use a plain old veggie wad to keep it simple?

Lastly, would someone please provide a BPCR Reloading list of essential items and best place to purchase them.

Thanks for all your help!

 

[ArmedBear]

1. Well, that depends on the chamber dimensions. My guess is that "cowboy" dies are made for lever guns, and therefore would be a poor choice for your rifle, but I don't know for sure.

2. 70 grains of FFG is what it is. Consistency is your friend. Get a drop tube. Forget what you know about working up loads for smokeless. Essentially, you fill the case with powder. Maybe you will fine-tune something later, but only by a grain or two.

3. See #2. There is no space between the bullet and the powder. What you're really trying to do is find the right fit to your chamber, choose and seat the bullets accordingly. Buy some bullets of different weights; see what Shiloh recommends, too. Get a mold after you know what fits and what shoots well. Chamber depth and where the rifling starts are important to think about.

4. Punchouts from milk cartons work fine, too. Two of them.

To start with, load some up so they fit your rifle and try them. See what happens. Don't hope to load up a perfect bunch of rounds by reading about it.

I haven't done it to compete, just to hunt. Top competition guys can take an entire day to load 40 rounds, and that's when they're already set up to do it, and know exactly what they want. Consistency in the tiniest details is what they go for. Not my cup of tea. I work for a living and my time is spent in other ways. But man they make some amazing shots.

 

[Eric F]

for the last part I use buffalo arms for most suplies. I make my own bullet/cookie lube.

things you will need are common press dies brass bullets primers powder wads and lune oh yeah bullets. Nothing super special. I shoot 50-90 and seat my bullet right on top of the grease. Some folks use an over grease wad I just choose not to.

 

[sundance44s]

There`s just too much written on the subject ...easy to find on the net ..maybe I can give you a few tips ..hollow base bullets / just load on top of the powder no card needed (I get the best accuracy with the hollow base design with my rifle ) .
OAL is very important ..you want the bullet seated to where it just engages the rifleing on the barrel .
If you can`t get a good crimp / your better off with no crimp at all ..( we are talking single shot rifle only )
Always remember with black powder and the subs ...leave no air space between the powder and bullet .
You will need a drop tube to get more than 65 grs of powder in a 45/70 case.
When loading your first ..cases ...resist the urge to roll to many the first time ..I keep it down to no more than 10 rounds , untill I find the right loads .
There are so many bullet weight...and designs to expermient with ..seems endless .
There are Forums on the net . just for BPCR ...lots of good information .
I use 2f powder for my target loads and 3f for hunting loads ( 3f will give you around 50 fps over the 2f powder )not a big deal but mine crono at 1,350 fps with 65grs of 3f under a .405 gr hollowbase bullet .
Its big it`s slow and it hits like a freight train .

 

[XTerminator]

Here's a good book to read:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=359738&t=11082005

And a good forum with lots of info:

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/

You should be able to find what you need to know between the two.
Steve

 

[Jim Watson]

More introductory material at
http://www.ssbpcrc.co.uk/Resources/Introduction to BPCR Loading.pdf

Me?
I shoot some BPCR metallic silhouette and mid-range, so I am one of those guys who loads slowly and with with care because somebody is keeping score.
Mine's a .38-55 Winchester but the approach is about the same. What I do is:

1. Cast bullets out of 20:1 lead:tin, no antimony. Inspect, sort by weight, and pan lube with SPG or other commercial or homemade black powder lubricant. Bullets are shot at as-cast diameter, which is about the same as groove diameter on my rifle.

2. Full length size brass, flare with an M-type die, prime with Federal Match or CCI BR.

3. Weigh out a powder charge, run it slowly down a drop tube into a primed case.

4. Push a wad down over the powder charge.

5. Compress the load with a compression die to where the bulletbase will be seated. No gap but do not mash a soft bullet out of shape by compressing the load with it.

6. Seat the bullet down on the wad with no extra force.

Notes:
Some use 30:1 or 25:1; 40:1 is mostly for paper patched or hunting bullets. A few use antimonial lead like wheelweights. A friend did good shooting with birdshot bought on closeout long before the price of lead took off. He added tin for better casting.

Not everybody FL sizes. Magnum primers are less used now than when BPCR was first coming back. Their main use is in top loads with heavily compressed powder charges.

Most weigh powder, the rest measure with the same care as a benchrest shooter.
The Goex representative's recommendation is to fill the case full of loose powder, then weigh it for a starting load. When drop tubed, it will settle in the case, then will be compressed before the bullet is seated.

I use a .030 Walters vegetable fibre wad (looks like gasket material to me), there are thicker wads and plastic wads in use. Grease cookies are not much used except for paper patched bullets. Which is a whole 'nother project.

Powder compression is one of the load variables. It is tied in with powder charge and bullet seating, you can't change just one thing. Swiss is said to need less compression than others. My standard load of Swiss 1 1/2 Fg is compressed about the thickness of the wad. My heavy load, trying to get better knockdown on the rams with my little gun, is nearly a case full and is compressed a lot for Swiss.

Some crimp the bullets lightly, some don't. I don't, figuring that the case mouth flare centers the cartridge in the chamber.

Doesn't mean I am right, I am only an AA silhouette shooter and there are AAA and Master shooters out there who may do it differently.

 

[Seadog76]

Wow! Great information - I thank all of you for this.

Any recommendations for a good set of dies for the 45-70 BPCR?

 

[Eric F]

rcbs or lyman

 

[Jim Watson]

I use Lyman with Buffalo Arms expander and compression plugs in Lyman bodies.

Reddings are nice, but you still need that separate expander and compression die.

 

[Gewehr98]

Ive been loading BPCR for a Sharps 1874 Business Rifle for about 2 years...

I cannot recommend highly enough Mike Venturino's and Steve Garbe's book, The SPG Lubricant BP Cartridge Reloading Primer. It discusses Black Powder Cartridge techniques and components very well, in a fashion that even us previously dyed-in-the-wool smokeless folks can understand.

It's a different game, w/softer cast or swaged bullets (30:1 to 20:1 alloy), non-petroleum bullet lubes, no airspace in the powder column, compression dies, drop tubes, wads, lube stars, blowtubes, etc.

It's also highly addictive. I haven't shot F-Class since I discovered BPCR Silhouette.

Montana Precision Swaging makes a good powder compression die, btw.

 

[Jim Watson]

A lot of folks these days are using more compression than the SPG Primer recommends, at least with Goex.

A lot fewer folks are using magnum primers than are recommended in the SPG Primer.

Research marches on. You just have to shoot the gun.

 

[mothernatureson]

cowboy dies

the rcbs cowboy dies have the bullet sizer die a bit larger than jacketed bullet dies, otherwise regular dies may shave a bit of lead from an undersized case neck. I use regular rcbs dies when I reload my 30-30 win with cast bullets. Not much of an issue for me however. lots of info out there. Have fun!

mothernatureson

 

[Sendero]

Thanks

I too got a Shiloh Sharps (1874 Business w/ 30 inch barrel with MVA sight and globe) from my Uncle. Just was checking too see what info there was on BP shooting this rifle.

Big difference from my Dillon .45 ACP reloading. I shot some Goex through it and I know now to dump the brass in soapy water right away.

Thanks for the links!

 

[Seadog76]

Thanks All for the great info and quick responses. I have the SPG book on my order list and also expander and compression plug. Now all I need is patience for my gun to arrive.

This is a great site with an obvious wealth of knowledge.

 

[Jim Watson]

Good point, Sendero. I stopped when I got the bullet seated. You still have to shoot and clean gun and brass. Here is what I do.

7. Wipe out storage oil. Load gun, aim and fire.

8. Open action, remove the empty, insert your blow tube in the chamber and exhale down the barrel several times. Four is enough in my climate, your air might call for more or less.
Some people prefer to push a damp patch through the barrel instead of blowing. With a supply of moist patches and a semi-flexible Delrin cleaning rod, you can do that about as fast as blowing.

9. Reload, aim and fire; blow, load, shoot, ad lib. With a good barrel and good lube you can shoot this way all day. It will likely take a few fouling shots before it settles down to shoot a group or score.

10. Take cleaning gear to the range and clean the gun on the spot when done.
Blow eight or ten times and push a patch through to rake out the heavy fouling and lube residue. Run a patch wet with diluted Windex with vinegar, run a dry patch; repeat until clean. I usually use a wet brush in there after a while but am in the minority. Wipe off all smoked exterior surfaces with a damp patch or rag. Dry and oil. I use Ballistol, but there are others. Need not take more than 10 minutes. When I get home, I reclean with M-Pro 7 and oil. Less trouble than getting the copper out of my .308.

11. Decap brass on the range, there are little tools for the job, and drop the cases into a jug of soapy water. When I get home, I flush out several changes of water to get out the black goo. Then tumble in a rotary tumbler with wet ceramic media. This cleans the brass inside and out. Dry and reload. Or you can do it the slow (but less expensive) way with soap and water and a test tube or bottle brush.

 

[Gewehr98]

Yeah, it's a good start...

But I put more squeeze on my Goex Cartridge than the SPG BP Primer recommends, too. With the aforementioned Montana Precision Swaging compression die, I've been squeezing my powder column somewhere between .3-.5" depending on bullet weight and design, wad thickness, and whether or not I'm using my beloved stash of NOS Rem-UMC balloon-head brass or new Remington or Starline brass. I run standard Winchester Large Rifle primers, I've found no need for the hotter variants. I once disassembled an early 1900s .45-70 round from my collection, and discovered that the powder column had become basically one large homogenous grain of BP over the near century since it had been assembled. That means to me that there was a goodly amount of compression going on back in the day, too.

Squeezing charcoal aside, I have, however, decided I won't run bullets in my 32" Business Rifle that don't have at least three well-defined and deep lube grooves, preferably four. They had also better create a decent lube star at the muzzle after one or two shots, otherwise I'm in for a bad day of hard crusty fouling and leading. Word is that once you get past about 28" barrel length, ensuring an ample supply of bullet lube all the way down the barrel is very important.

As an added benefit, I've since noticed that the more lube I can get deposited in the barrel, the less I need to rely on a blow tube. It's probably the moisture content of the Crisco/lard/beeswax mix keeping the fouling soft, but I'm not going to complain, regardless. My goal is to completely eliminate the blow tube eventually. (Don't see many tintypes or images of early Sharps/Rolling Block/Ballard shooters fooling around with blow tubes, know what I mean?)

I get weird looks at the range but I take a gallon milk jug of soapy water and place it on my bench, along with my handheld reloading press with a decapping stem installed. Once they're fired, the brass gets quickly decapped and dropped into the jug of soapy water, where it waits for the ride home. The agitation in the truck ride helps swish the detergent around, too. The water is black by the time I get home.

Once home, the brass gets rinsed while still in the jug until the water runs clear, then it goes into my Cole-Parmer laboratory ultrasonerator tank, where it gets buzzed for 30 minutes or so in a heated water/Micron cleaning solution. That cleans the inside of the brass, as well as the primer pockets, before it gets dried in a rack for a day. Then it goes in the tumbler with corncob media for a final cleaning and polishing. That's definitely overkill, but I know there aren't any corrosive elements left in the brass before I load it again. The Remington nickel-plated brass cleans up the easiest, but I still make sure I minimize the amount of leftover crud in them.

Jim speaks true about not using the bullet to compress your powder. I use a drop tube, and then the powder compression die, before seating the bullet. I accidentally swaged many really nice 30:1 alloy 535gr Postells when seating them because I didn't compress the powder under the wad first. They looked really awful, almost like a wadcutter.

 

[Jim Watson]

There are old references showing "cooling tubes" that amount to modern blow tubes.

A lot of target shooters wiped the barrel every shot. I read that the Irish Creedmoor team shooting Rigby muzzleloaders said the biggest advantage the Americans had with their breechloaders was that it was easy for them to wipe out.
The custom seems to be coming back, I have seen and read of more shooters wiping instead of blowing. You can even get "Bore Pigs" comprising a brush backed up by a patch or rubber squeegee ring to be run through one pass per shot. That was a 19th century design, too.

 

[ArmedBear]

One can wipe any gun. It's not gonna hurt.

But when you're out in the field someplace and you want to take another shot, blowing works quite well, especially since, unlike with a frontstuffer, you don't have a full-length ramrod conveniently stored under the barrel. Failing to blow can make it really, really hard to reload.

 

[English Bob]

I've tried both blowing and wiping. For real tight BPCR shooting wiping out cannot be beaten for target shooting accuracy IMHO.