1911 Buyers Have Got it MADE These Days.

[Nalapombu]

Hey,

I just wanted to share my observations today with everyone and see if they agree with me that those who love the 1911 have got it really good in todays gunshops.
I can remember when there were very few choices in the 1911 world and if you wanted one, you took what was there or you went without. The quality was spotty and you might get a good one or you might get a bad one. Today it is TOTALLY changed.
I went to my 2 local shops today just to look around. The first had a whole case full of Kimbers, new Paras and Springfields. Of course I had to handle and check out several of them. I can honestly say that every one of them were first rate. There wasn't a dog in the bunch. The quality was present in every 1911 that I handled in that shop from the $450 Mil Spec to the $1750 Kimber Super Match, they were all finished and fit beautifully. If you didn;t like the "traditional" 1911 then you could choose one of the new Para 1911's. I was really impressed with those, especially the new CCW and the TAC-S. I could've bought any of the 25 1911's they had in the case and been well satisfied. I am pretty sure that every one of them would've functioned as good as they looked and felt.
In the other shop I found a new Colt XSE Commander and I could no longer hold out so I brought it home. I am very happy with it and it is everything that you could hope for in a quality 1911. It goes really well with the NRM Colt full size that I bought 3 months ago.
In both places I looked today there were about 40 different 1911's from several makers. I did not see a single one that was a dog or one that I would not want to own. You would not be able to see that many quality 1911's 10 or 15 years ago. The addition of Kimber and the other 1911 makers has had a very positive impact on the consumer choices for 1911's. We have a plethora of choices that we can make in todays 1911's and any one of them would be a great addition to a collection. 1911 enthusiasts have it made in todays gun market. I like it.
What do you think?

Nala

 

[natedog]

Agreed, there is a lot of variety, and there is a lot of competition in the 1911 market. However, to keep prices down, a lot of these pistols (Kimber, for example) contain MIM parts in places were MIM shouldn't be, IE high stress areas like slide stops. Do a search and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Majic]

Actually you had it better in the old days. To many 1911 pistols today are starting to have propietary parts in them. This limits you on getting replacemanet parts for them. In the past it was easy to find replacement parts as they fit on every maker's pistol.
In the past if the pistol didn't run it usually just needed tuning. Today there are far too many parts breakage from using sub-standard parts made of the wrong materials to go hand in hand with the needed tuning.
You have plenty of choices today, but if you look beyond the bells and whistles you will see a growing problem in a lot of the ones on the shelves.

 

[stans]

I remember when buying a 1911 meant buying a Colt or a military surplus gun. Then came Springfield Armory and Auto Ordnance. Colt kept their prices high while Springfield and Auto Ord undercut Colt and began to steal their market share. Now we have a whole host of manufacturers offering 1911's from about $350 up to $2000 or so. Perhaps this is the golden age for the 1911.

 

[Atticus]

True. I'd like to see the same thing happen with the High Power design.

 

[Old Fuff]

Back during the late 1940's when I bought my first .45 (A surplus 1911-A1 made by Ithica during the war and sent to England. It was returned as surplus in the original box, and was never issued. Cost me just under $20.00 plus sales tax.)

Anyway at the time all you could get were surplus military arms, older used commercial Colt's or a new Colt if you could find one - which was difficult.

In any case you could be pretty sure that whatever you got it would work and be reliable, out-of-the-box. No one, and I mean no one ever thought they would have to put X-number of rounds through a gun before it started to behave as it should, and broken parts were largely unheard of unless someone tore off the end of an extractor shooting steel-cased ammunition. Stupidity had it's own reward.

Today we do have an entirely different situation. There are a lot of manufacturers who are offering Government Model style guns. We also have a forum here that is filled with posts from people who have purchased guns and then found that - for various reasons - they don't work as they should. We also see pictures of guns with broken slide stops and other parts which seldom happened in earlier guns. Our beloved "1911 Tuner" is kept busy explaining how one can make the necessary adjustments and modifications to get a cranky pistol working as it should. Meanwhile my old relics keep going without undue attention other then being cleaned and lubricated on occasion.

Having more of something isn't necessarily advantageous unless the "something" works, is reliable and doesn't break down. The real test is not how they look in a dealer's showcase, or how they feel when first handled, but how well they work to start with and continue too do so.

Obviously all of today's production is not junk. Owners of various makes report putting thousands of rounds downrange without problems. But this is a hit-or-miss situation, and where one person is well satisfied while the next is not. From my own perspective I'm glad that I was around to buy guns in which there were few quality control issues, even if the choice was limited.

 

[wingman]

Obviously all of today's production is not junk. Owners of various makes report putting thousands of rounds downrange without problems. But this is a hit-or-miss situation, and where one person is well satisfied while the next is not. From my own perspective I'm glad that I was around to buy guns in which there were few quality control issues, even if the choice was limited.

Ditto: From another oldtimer, quality control is in the hands of the buyer in that
I mean , we the company will ship it and its up to you the consumer to find errors in our work...:banghead:

 

[stans]

True. I'd like to see the same thing happen with the High Power design.

The High Power does not seem to be as popular as the 1911, perhaps because the HP is available in 9mm and Browning did make them in 40 S&W whereas the 1911 is available in 22 LR, 9mm, 38 Super, 40 S&W, 10mm, and 45 ACP as well as derivatives of these cartridges.

 

[natedog]

Plus, the HP has competition with every other wondernine out there: Sig, HK, Glock, CZ, Beretta, etc. The 1911 is pretty much the only .45 single stack, single action pistol, probably because it does the job so well.

 

[sm]

Ditto what Old Fuff and wingman posted.

Quality NOT Quanity was the attitude of manufacturers.
Figure in the amount of money back a person made per hour /week and the price of a firearm back then to today.

Same applies to today...difference is back then they left the factory ready to work. Today the beta testing is left up to the buyer.

We have to blame ourselves - the buyer - for some of this. Be careful what you ask for - you might just get it.

A reliable combat ready 1911 was designed to do just that, be a great offensive weapon, that naturally was equally suite for defensive use.

We asked the 1911 to fill other roles, a bull-eye gun for instance, and person like the late Jim Clark and othersmodified the 1911 to be very very good at this. These gunsmith's and the shooters knew that gun for bulls eye was a "bulls eye" gun - not the former offensive /defensive firearm.

Nothing wrong with modifying a tool to perform a specific task but folks starting WISHING the 1911 would perform ALL tasks. Folks asked and received.

Can't expect a 4 cyl designed for gas mileage to pull a yacht. You might get lucky for a few miles, something is gonna give. Don't expect the Big Block SUV to get 35 mpg either.

Reason why folks had straight sixes in p/u trucks, and small blocks in the family sedan. Performed most tasks very well, decent mileage and could tow a resonable payload.

 

[1911Tuner]

Beloved?

Old Fuff said:

"Our beloved "1911 Tuner"

Now dang it! I told ya not ta be teasin' me!

Dittos and Mega-Dittos, Fuff. These "unreliable" 1911s were as much a
shock to me as they were to you. Too bad all those old GI blasters
and pre-war Colts have all but disappeared. Time was, all the tweakin' they'd need was right after a rebuild, and that didn't take more than 30 minutes at the most. Those old pistols were like a Timex watch. They'd
take a lickin', etc.

Personally, I'd be willing to pay a premium for a really good pistol,
made of good materials and correctly spec-ed out from the git-go.
Not a fluff, buff, and Bling-Bling top-line one-off masterpiece...just a
plain-jane, no frills, solid shooter that I could count on right from the
box. Yeah yeah...I know. I know. Good MIM is 97.5% as dense and just as good blah blah blah. I Always beware when somebody tells me that
"It's just as good as...." 'Scuse me, but I ain't convinced.

Instead, I slave away at a tiny workbench under a dim light to make these
Age-of-the-Corporate-Beancounter products work the way they should. I've gotta spend my precious time and energy trollin' around at the gun shows to find the good parts that are gettin' more scarce by the week.(Hey...It's a rough job, but somebody's gotta do it.) AND...tryin' to make unhappy owners believe me when I tell'em that the state of the art ain't always been this way.

We remember...OH! Yessss

Cheers!

Yodabird Tunerfish

 

[Old Fuff]

Face it .... Ya got a fan club here. Pretty soon they'll start asking for your autograph ..... Then pictures, and then .......

Where is it you keep all those old gun parts ??????

 

[1911Tuner]

Old Gun Parts

Old Fuff asked:

Where is it you keep all those old gun parts ?

Mostly in old guns...

I've got a few GI grip and thumb safeties...2 slidestops...2 extractors...
a half-dozen hammers and sears...one disconnector...and(are ya sittin' down?) ONE PRISTINE RAND SLIDE, and it's IN SPEC!!!! It's just waitin'
for the right frame. Oh yeah...One unused Colt GI barrel that'll soon have a home.

Sadly...I don't have a single, solitary pre-A1 long trigger that's not
in a gun. *snif snif*

The fan club is on account of my natcheral charm and debonairishness...
All us southern Grits and Gravy down home boys got it.

EDITED: Almost forgot. One arched MSH and one flat smooth one...with
lanyard loops, of course.

Gotta git! Time to feed the dogs!

Woof...

Tuner

 

[Sean Smith]

The unreliable, fragile 1911 is a modern innovation, unfortunately. This isn't nostalgia, but objective fact. Colt's 1911s started a slow decline from a VERY high level in the 1960s, and the Series 70 guns represented a major drop in overal quality, but at least the important parts like sears were still hard as woodpecker lips... so once you had it fixed, it would last forever and a day.

That doesn't sound so great till you consider MIM grip safeties, thumb safeties, slide stops and mag catches breaking in two for no apparent reason. Hell, you can't break most parts on an old Colt with a HAMMER, let alone normal use.

At the high end, we are better off, because there are all these great aftermarket parts that are of extremely high quality from folks like Ed Brown and Heinie. And the metalurgy of the GOOD parts has gotten better than what they had in the 1930s, so if you can find somebody competent to build it, you can get a better gun than was ever possible before. Even with that, the inter-war (that being WWI and WWII) commercial Colt Government Models set one hell of a high water mark, let alone the National Match guns from that period.

As an all-around high mark for the commercially produced 1911, you probably need to look at the late 1950s-early 1960s Colts, because you still have a high level of quality in terms of how they were assembled, and better steels than they had to play with in the 1920s-1930s.

The flip side of all that was that if you weren't buying a military surplus 1911, that commercial Government Model from Colt was probably closing in on $1,000 in adjusted dollars, and close to $2,000 for the National Match guns. So a cheaper quality $600 1911 of today looks a bit better in that light.

 

[1911Tuner]

Dang

Now dagnabbit Sean...Ya went and spoiled the trip down Memory Lane that
me an' Fuff was takin'...

You said:

You probably need to look at the late 1950s-early 1960s Colts,

Got two of'em...Can't argue with ya on that point.:cool
____________________________


and:

but at least the important parts like sears were still hard as woodpecker lips.

The spare GI sears I've got check out between 50 and 52 Rc...hammers
about the same. Looks good so far...

The MIM sears check out harder at about 56, but one cracked during the test. Didn't file the surface to check the underlying hardness.

Tuner<------------Out!

 

[Old Fuff]

>> The fan club is on account of my natcheral charm and debonairishness...
All us southern Grits and Gravy down home boys got it. <<


Now I know what my problem is ....

 

[sm]

Old Fuff:

Back during the late 1940's when I bought my first .45 (A surplus 1911-A1 made by Ithica during the war and sent to England. It was returned as surplus in the original box, and was never issued. Cost me just under $20.00 plus sales tax.)

If you still have it - I'll give you One Crisp C note for it. Try to get interest like that from the bank. Heck, I'll even pay postage.

Oh yeah. Old Fuff..another thing...we southern boys here in AR don't cotton to fella's running around in cheerleaders outfits and pom poms...I have no Idea what happen to the grits and gravy types further east of us *ahem* Tuner... Bet that boy been eating store bought biscuits in a can...yep most likely so. Kept telling Tuner to stay with the scratch biscuits...out of cast iron skillet...But yeah I can suck up with the best of them...especially if the cheerleader with pom poms has old GI parts and wants a C note for "old twenty dollar gun". *grinning, joking and kidding*


Sean - Good points, we do have some folks that do make use of better metallurgy and methods and maintain the principle of Quality and QC . I have no problem paying a price for something and getting what I paid for.

Don't have problem if Ed Brown, Heinie, or Grieder makes a profit either...in fact not only do I expect it - I respect it.

 

[1911Tuner]

Canned Biskits

sm said:

Bet that boy been eating store bought biscuits in a can...

Sheeeeeit! I run my last wife off for openin' a can of them things.
'Bout got alimony for mental anguish and cruelty, but her city lawyer
got her outta that.

Fuff...I'll beat his hudred dollar offer! How's two hundred sound?
I'm payin' top dollar here!

Standin' by...

Tuner (Catfish) Travis

 

[sm]

Canned biscuits are a hanging offense...bullets too good for 'em.

Just ribbing you Old Fuff and Tuner...'cept I'll see your $200 and raise you one Cast Iron Skillet, filled with catfish fillets and Blackberry cobbler for dessert. [ yeah, I play hardball Tuner]

Ok you guys taken a hardness test on the old GI parts in comparison of the new parts from Hienie, Grieder, Ed Brown...etc.? I'd like to know and learn from you folks...Sean, that includes you .

Gotta run...chicken fried steak with bicuits , gravy , fried okra, turnip greens, blackberry cobbler waitin' on me...I'm a sucker for brunettes and brown eyes anyway- add cooking and shooting and I gotta take care of priorites. You folks excuse me...

Besides I saw a Imitation Inferior made cast iron skillet clone today...I need something to assure me something still right in the world...sigh.

 

[Old Fuff]

I hate to bust any bubbles, but I traded that Ithaca in on a new commercial Government Model and a .22 conversion kit. I sold the kit because I got tired of always having to clean the floating chamber. All this happened around 1949 or 50 .... but yes I do still have that commercial .45, it worked right on day-one and it still does.

And that Pom-Pom outfit was Tuner's idea ..... Now everybody is a’talking about me …. Oh, I is so mor-ti-fied over all of this

It’s true that my cooking has been said to be felonious, but CANNED BISCUITS!!!??

 

[dsk]

There's not much I can add to what has already been said, except to say I agree with most everything. Today we have a greater variety of 1911s to choose from than ever before. At first we only had mil-spec 1911s, then by the late 1990's factory-custom jobs were all you could find. Now it doesn't matter whether you're a purist who loves polished blue finishes and spur hammers, or whether ski-jump sights and massive safety levers are more to your liking. You can anything you want, new and in the box.

Unfortunately as others have said it's the quality of materials that's slipped considerably, not necessarily fit and finish. With modern CNC equipment holes are usually drilled where they belong and edges are straight, but when the part is made of cast or MIM steel it often won't pass muster. If you'll read Jerry Kuhnhausen's second edition of his .45 Automatic shop manual (written prior to the MIM craze), you'll see where he acknowledges that the quality of modern commercial 1911 components has slipped drastically. They simply no longer meet original military design specifications and thus cannot be counted upon to last like an original GI part would. For example, the extractor is supposed to be made from 1060-1095 special steel, hardened to RC 48-52. Just how well do you think a powdered-metal MIM part conforms to that specification?

If we could only have yesterday's quality with today's selection we'd all be in 1911 nirvana. I wouldn't care if I had to pay $1000 for a base Colt or Kimber as long as I got the quality along with it, because I'd know I was done sinking any additional money into it just to get it to work.

 

[Tamara]

Old Fuff,

In any case you could be pretty sure that whatever you got it would work and be reliable, out-of-the-box.

Of course.

Those old milsurps and Remington-Rands were very reliable out-of-the-box with hardball, hardball, and hardball. I never had the tiniest lick of trouble getting them to feed semiwadcutters or flying ashtrays. Good to know you didn't either.


Sincerely,
A chick who's lost count of how many ramp'n'throats she's had to shell out for...

 

[1911Tuner]

Hardball

I ain't gotta problem wit' hardball. Fuff...You gotta problem wit' hardball?
Not me! I ain't gotta problem wit' hardball. Anybody says hardball aint any good ain't SEEN what it'll do to a human body at close range. Me, I ain't gotta problem wit' hardball...Nossir.

But, for dem dat does...Golden Saber will feed in most ol' GIs wit' ol'
GI hardball magazines wit'out a hitch.

Cheers!

Tuner

 

[Sean Smith]

Those old milsurps and Remington-Rands were very reliable out-of-the-box with hardball, hardball, and hardball. I never had the tiniest lick of trouble getting them to feed semiwadcutters or flying ashtrays. Good to know you didn't either.

Seems that someone has forgotten that the 1911 was a military weapon, not a toy for playing gun games with sissified semi-wadcutters. And of course, there weren't many poorly conceived hollowpoints like the Speer "flying ashtray" around 1911.

The fact that it can do either of those things with little work, in addtion to running 100% with its inteded killing ammo, ought to count for something.

 

[1911Tuner]

Lest We Forget

Sean said:

Seems that someone has forgotten that the 1911 was a military weapon, not a toy for playing gun games with sissified semi-wadcutters.

Testify!

230 Hardball was rompin' and stompin' for 60-odd years before hollowpoints came along. It'll still do well if it's shot well.

Luck!

Tuner