1911 Buyers Have Got it MADE These Days.

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The pistols been around for close to 100 years. I would hope that there would be lots of options for such a popular platform. :) Heck it even comes in 9 and 10mm, .22 cal, 40SW and 460
 
AMEN. The first 1911 I ever shot was a DCM Remington Rand. The original purchaser made a huge profit on it, selling it to my parents for a whopping $25 in 1960. Best Christmas present a kid could get--better than a Red Ryder BB gun anyday! Still have it and it still shoots just fine. Other than the dinky sights it is probably a better weapon than all the wannabes currently for sale.

44 years and zero problems.

Damn good start, anyway.
 
Tamara:

The commercial Colt Government Model (1949-50)) I mentioned has never had the feed ramp or barrel throat modified. It reliably feeds hardball of course, and like generations before me I always found them to be adequate for the purposes intended. It would also feed 200-grain semi-wadcutters without trouble, but not the little 185’s.

However they worked fine with magazines’ that were adjusted to feed them. I didn’t play around much with hollow points except during the time when George Nonte and Lee Jurras were developing them, and those worked too … at least most of the time.

As you pointed out in a sort of backhanded way, hardball will feed reliably – even in old fashioned unmodified guns. Somehow I find that to be more important then having a bullet with some kind of hollow nose.
 
is anyone really making an MIM extractor?
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Yes. Kimber extractors are MIM, as are any other guns using McCormick parts. Colt used to use MIM extractors until they had a rash of breakage issues, then they switched back to barstock ones. I can't tell what is in my Springfield Mil-Spec. It looks like a decent unit so I'll just keep running with it until something happens.
 
Sean Smith,

Seems that someone has forgotten that the 1911 was a military weapon, not a toy for playing gun games with sissified semi-wadcutters.
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Really? Who? :uhoh:

Anyhow, just because a gun was designed to feed what was the state-of-the-art in handgun ammunition a century ago doesn't mean that I should settle for using that ammo today.

This is why I have ditched the 1911 for...

...the 1911.

Hardball indeed works fine.This does not mean that a good .45 JHP will work worse.


Sincerely,
A chick who currently has nine 5" 1911's scattered about her bedroom...


PS: If I was going to shoot a man (and given equal bullet weights and powder charges) I'd take a SWC over a round-nosed FMJ (if reliability was equal, based purely on terminal performance) any day of the week and twice on Sunday, and so would anybody else who'd seen the difference in performance between a flatnose and a roundnose in a living critter.
 
Old Fuff,

It reliably feeds hardball of course, and like generations before me I always found them to be adequate for the purposes intended.
Click to expand...

May I respectfully submit that "adequate" does not always preclude "better". If a possible edge is available, I'll take it. ;)
 
Funny thing...

I never saw one of these for a Sig 220 offered on the open market-

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/Store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=19725

I'm gonna throw in with the crowd who says that the best '11s were the ones made way before MIM parts became the rule, instead of the exception. If I wanted the most reliable 1911 I could get today, I'd take an "Ugly Rollmark 1991-A1 and replace the extractor and slide stop with the best forged parts I could get. Then I'd sell the Colt mag on eBay and order a half-dozen Metalforms, blue 7-rounders with the round follower, thank you. Polish the feed-ramp, keep fresh springs in it, and you should be OK with ball, H&G 68's or hardball-ogive JHP's.

But if you really want the edge- and the most reliable .45 you can get- you get a Sig.

PS- All your malfunctions are punishment for using guns with front serrations and beaverbutt safeties. They use the metal chips from the front slide serrations to make MIM for the new-age extractors and slide stops. I know this is true because I just read it on the internet. Hell, I just typed it on the internet, so I was the first one to know it was true :D

Aren't you all glad I let you in on this:scrutiny:
 
Whoa , hold on a sec...

We can debate what ammo and such. later..

but item #3 ...looks like a pair of "regular old road" vice grips - $57 vice grips !! . Granted my glasses might be dirty, eyes tired , maybe a bit sensory overloaded...don't think so...

I dunno, "field strip" a Sig without any tools...put me in a new extractor using only the Sig as a tool unto itself. ;)

My theory is canned biscuits caused ruination of society - $57 vice grips, left handed screwdrivers, and the dimples fellout of the recoil plugs.on '11's ..sigh...

Hey I actually was able to log on...thought you guys were trying to tell me something
 
Actually those modified vise-grip's do an excellent job of staking the plunger tube ... Provided you countersink the holes on the inside of the magazine well first. Be that as it may, I find it interesting that the way it's being done at too many factories makes Brownell's feel that a staking tool is necessary in a ... field kit. What next????
 
Old Fuff-

Yessir - I was being a bit "smart". Sorry :)

"Field Strip" on an 1911 -no need for tools. I can see an armorer needing "tools" in the field to stake a plunger.

In a former business, I made many tools to better do a specific task. Two in particular stand out , one made with a pr of $4 Vice grips the other from a set of slip joint wire pliers I paid $1.95 for.

I get a trade tool catalog in one day some 5 yrs later and "my tools" were for sale. $24.95 and 16.95 respectfully. 20/20 hindsight I should just made "tools" and marketed them...instead of getting dirty and making a mess using tools.

There are "tools" , there are tricks /tips, and then we have gadgets. I learned from the tricks/tips to make "tools". Some folks bought gadgets and still couldn't work on anything...or fixed it so well it wouldn't work. Then we had /have the newer version of the old quaity tools that won't work, hold up ...etc. Gee that sounds like some guns ...oops...;)

I betcha many here know of what I speak. ;)
 
The Debate

Yeeeee Haaaa! This one's heatin' up quick!:cool:

Agree with Tamara on the SWC vs Hardball. Still perfectly comfortable
with hardball though. Closest thing to a 230 SWC at present is the
truncated cone FMJ Flat Nose that offers more penetration than ball,
without signifigant increase in the thump factor. Either will do.

Sarge...Colt's slidestops are machined from steel barstock. Seen one
fail over the years, and that didn't put the gun out of the game. It
just wouldn't let the slide lock on empty. Jury is still out on their
reissued barstock extractors. Given that they had so much trouble with
the MIMs, I'd say that they're probably as good as any non-spring steel
(tempered 1075 or 1090) as any you'll likely find on the aftermarket.

Colt magazines probably ARE Metalform, as are Springfield and Kimbers, and you can get the followers from them direct. You'll need the proprietary spring that goes with that follower...and the stock spring leaves a little to be desired. Want a recipe for good magazines? Get Hallock's paperback and use the template to set the angle of the follower in the 7-round Colt magazine. (Flat with the tit please) Get a Wolff 11-pound spring....7-round part number. Alternate: Metalform 7-round magazines, and follow the same recipe.

Metalforms are also available in stainless, and the followers are a bit
tougher than the carbon steel counterparts. Slidestop elevators on Metalform followers may need a little tweak for best function. Quick and easy.

sm...I know of what you speak, mah fren...I do.

Standin' by...

Tuner
 
All Colt magazines marked with the Rampant Colt made in the last 10-15 years should have a code letter on the denoting the true manufacturer.

C = Colt
M = Metalforn
G = Mec-Gar << Not 100% positive on this, just what I was told. Please correct me if wrong.
S = No one seems to know
 
Colt Magazine Codes

Correct, BluesBear...At least on the "C" and "M" Codes. Don't know about the "G", but I have two stainless horsie magazines with the "G" code...
Positively awful magazines! Glad they came with a parts package deal that didn't cost me a lotta cash.

Haven't run into an "S" code yet, so the jury is still out on that one.

Cheers!

Tuner
 
I have a 1977 colt nickle plated government model.
(I have also handled several 1960's and 1950's expamples)

I can compare it with my "new" 1999 Gold Cup, my 1994 Officers acp.

I have shot them all extensively.

It appears to me that the quality has gone up not down.

But thats just my opinion.
 
EDITED TO ADD: I wrote this when I was in the "argument zone." All of this stuff is meant in good fun. Even if I'm right. :evil:

A chick who currently has nine 5" 1911's scattered about her bedroom...
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Yeah, kind of hard to miss that with all the pictures you post. :p

And once you take away the high-end custom guns and the modified production guns, Tamara would have...? ;)

Guess my whole point was, what's your point?

Yeah, a modern-manufacture, sub-$1,000 1911 will feed more types of ammo... when it works. It is also more likely to not work right out of the box with anything, and have parts break at low round counts due to inferior materials. There are lots of examples (photos, even) of Kimbers having grip safeties snap in two, Dan Wessons with MIM mag catches breaking in half, and so forth. Take a Colt grip safety from 1959, hit it with a ball-peen hammer, and see what happens. Might dent it. Might not.

Saying an old 1911 wouldn't feed bullets that didn't exist when it was built is a non-critique of the argument that new (commercially produced) 1911s are inferior in many respects to older (commercially produced) 1911s. Which is what was going on before your smart remarks. ;)

It is true, but it is also something silly to bring up that isnt' terribly relevant. The old gun was designed to work with the ammo at hand in 1911. The current versions of the gun are designed to work with the ammo at hand today, sort of, sometimes, if you are lucky. Or not.

It is easy to remove a little good steel to make the old gun more feed reliable than a new one with hollowpoints or SWCs. It is somewhat more involved throwing out all the MIM slag parts on, say, a Kimber (or even the 3 on a current Colt) and replacing them to get to the same place the old gun was when it started.

I like lots of modern advancements, such as sights I can see and not getting bitten by the hammer. But I also like the old-fashoned idea of the gun not being made of polished cat turds and actually working.
 
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Old Guns/New Guns

Red Guns/Blue Guns...

Sean knows some things...Yessir he do.:cool:


_________________________
I also like the old-fashoned idea of the gun not being made of polished cat turds and actually working.
__________________________

ROFL...I like that. I intend to steal it and use it...often.

Cheers!

Coffee's on me, Sean...

Tuner
 
Tuner's got the right idea... all meant in good fun. :D

Heck, I even owned a Kimber that worked OK, back when I was young and ignorant back in... 1999. :p
 
sm:

Didn’t mean to dig ya’ about the vise-grip tool or it’s cost, which does seem to be a bit high, but I don’t suppose they sell a whole lot of them, and whoever is making them for Brownells may be charging an arm and a leg. But anyway that price would get my attention and then start a do-it-yourself project.

No, what interested me was that they’d think that the way guns are put together today requires that such a tool be included in a kit of “field†tools for users as well as the gunsmith’s shop. Over the years working with literally hundreds of different Government Model style guns (mostly belonging to other people) I’ve only had to restake two or three of the older Colts, but more then a dozen of the newer Colt’s and clones – usually because they didn’t countersink the holes on the inside of the magazine well in the first place. Then I had two instances where the tube wasn’t staked at all, but held in with some kind of adhesive. Back during the early-middle 1980’s Jeff Cooper, who had seen Government Models by the thousands at his facility at Gunsite, finely started advocating that the tubes be silver soldered in place because of the number that came loose.

A loose tube can be a critical defect because if it loosens far enough the spring plunger can lock the manual safety in the “on†position and you can’t get it off. I would say that paying attention to that little detail was far more important then what kind of a horn was on the grip safety or how long the recoil spring guide was.

Continuing along the same line of thought, I believe the most important attribute in an automatic pistol that’s intended to be used as a weapon is that it FUNCTION RELIABLY! One may argue about what kind of ammunition is best, but the issue becomes moot if it jams the gun during the feeding/ejection cycle. The next most important feature is that it be constructed out of the best quality materials, and “built†not just “assembled†by knowledgeable workers. The steels we have today are far superior to those that were available in 1911, or even 1950 – but this is of little use if they are not properly employed.

Cost accountants deal with spreadsheets and pennies, engineers with design and manufacturing. Unfortunately too many of the former are running gun companies today. Over the years I have talked to or with a fair number of top gun company executives, including CEO’s and presidents. Most of them knew zip about guns, and even fewer ever used their own products. (One notable exception was Bill Ruger Sr. who was very knowledgeable, and had an engineering background). Another is Gaston Glock who proved that you could make a reliable product that utilized current-day production methods and materials.

But as I look at the current crop of pistols descended from Browning’s 1911 design I become more firm in my opinion that “older is better,†unless one is willing to pay a very high price for the quality, workmanship and reliability that was formerly considered to be ordinary and expected without question.
 
Ah! Fuff

Excellent commentary.

I think that the trouble is that, so much has been made of the customized
1911, that it's come to be expected that a pistol can't really be any good unless it's been annointed by a pistolsmith. Reliability issues have become
so commonplace, that it's accepted that the first thing that a new 1911
buyer needs to do is shoot a thousand rounds through it to break it in,
and send it away for "Reliability Tuning." But it wasn't always so.

The other part of the problem is, that the guys like me, you, Jim Keenan
and a few others are gettin' on in years, and not many really remember what it was like when they ran from the git go...and it wasn't a surprise.
It was the status quo.

You can't imagine MY surprise back in the late 70s to early 80s when I
started getting factory Colts on the bench because they didn't run. I
had never heard of such a thing. Then I saw my first cast part on a 1911,
and I was completely confused. I had been out of the smithin' practice for a while...except on my own guns, and we still had access to GI parts...
and I had never imagined such a thing. I learned more about troubleshooting and reliability tweakin' from 1977 until 1985 than before
or since. I had to!

Sean hit one nail squarely on the hittin' part when he stated that advances
in metallurgy and better steels don't mean a thing if they're not put to use.
Even with 1930 era steels, to have a close look at a Commercial or pre-war
GI Colt is a real eye-opener on the way they SHOULD be. There were no
reliability issues. There weren't any small parts poppin' like matchsticks..
There could have been no aftermarket parts suppliers then. They'd have
starved to death before gettin' out of the red.

So, now we rely on the overbooked pistolsmith to see to the reliability of
a pistol that would BE reliable if it were built right to begin with. I'd
be willing to bet that there aren't many who would be willing to foot the
ammo bill for one such pistol in an attempt to make it choke or break.

I miss the good old days...I really do. I also feel some compassion for the
workin' stiff who spends his hard-earned green on a pistol that doesn't
run right, and is faced with spending about another third of the buying
price to have somebody make it happen.

Cheers, ol Son! Fight the good fight! Keep tellin' the story. There are some who will hear your words.

Tuner
 
Thanks 1911 Tuner - I would close this thread if you hadn't calmed the waters.


1911 Buyers do have it made... however wouldn't it be great to be able to buy original Colts for under 50 bucks?
They had it pretty good back in the good old days too.
 
Calmed the Waters

Mighty welcome George. "Blessed are the peacemakers"...so I've heard.

Mah fren...if this is as bad as the flames get on THR, the mods have it made! This would have been called a perfectly civil discussion on...uh...
Nevermiiiind...:D

Cheers!

Tuner
 
Perhaps some good news is the amount of new manufacturers getting into the 1911 business. Quality usually goes up.

IMHO, the Sig entry is the most important one for quite awhile. They have attempted to include better internals and "hand" fitting in a 1911 that sells in the $850-$1,000 range. Perhaps they will sell enough to force the Big "3" to up the quality of their higher end 1911's. In other words use the higher cost for better parts as opposed to colored polymer coatings, checkering etc.

Honestly though, that Sig has to be one of the uglist 1911s I have ever seen. ;) I prefer the internal extractor also. Said that before I "got smacked". :eek:
 
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