1911 cocked, safety off carry?

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Got_Lead?

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Since there's so much controversy about how to carry, DA safety on, safety off, Glocks and XD's with no thumb safety at all.

If all these are OK, would it be OK to carry a Hi-Power, or series 80 1911 cocked and unlocked? They both have firing pin blocks to make them safe.

In the past, some PD's wanted DA autos with spring return decockers so they couldn't be used as a safeties and wouldn't prevent firing in hi stress situations, shouldn't this apply to SA's as well. Both my XD and 1911 have 4 pound triggers, what's the difference?

Why do I think this is going to be controversial?
 
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Actually John Browning thought the grip safety was sufficient on the original design of the pistol that would become the 1911.


The army was the one who demanded an external safety, so it was added on. This is why it's such cobbled on looking thing with a tube on the outside of the pistol.
 
Actually John Browning thought the grip safety was sufficient on the original design of the pistol that would become the 1911.
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That's because Browning never thought anyone in their right mind would actually carry a SA of any type cocked. Traditionally handguns where cocked only when you immanently intended to shoot them and never for carry or transportation.

Browning never designed the 1911 to be carried cocked and locked. The safeties where added at the request of the military, remember that the 1911 was introduced pre military mechanization in an erra when horse mounted cavalry was the main user of handguns. Making a cocked semi auto safe to re-holster and handle when mounted on a moving or unruly horse required additional safeties to the simple uncock the hammer.

Both my XD and 1911 have 4 pound triggers, what's the difference?
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The difference is that you can drop your XD with round chambered off a 10 story building to hard pavement and it will not go off The only thing that will fire the round is if the trigger is pulled.

Unless your 1911 is an 80 series with hammer block your cocked 1911 with round chambered likely will from a lot shorter distance as the only thing preventing it from firing is the tenuous hold of the sear on the hammer. The sear tip can snap or the hammer can be jostled out of engagement unintentionally discharging the pistol.
 
This is true! How could the gun be designed to be carried cocked and locked when the original design didn't even have a slide safety?
 
Think of it this way...

When your cocked and locked 1911 thumb safety becomes accidentally disengaged, having that redundant grip safety feature is comforting. So is having the additional firing pin safety on the 80's Series.

I've carried 1911s for years and years...and have occasionally discovered the safety wiped off, whether carrying CCW, in a thigh rig, or vest mounted on armor. Ambidextrous safeties are famous for coming off safe while you aren't paying attention.

I always feel a lot better when I flip it back to 'Safe".

You can carry it that way...you just shouldn't. Hell, you could safely smoke a cigarette while you are fueling your lawnmower...but I wouldn't recommend it as a plan.
 
There are many proponents of conventional 1911 cocked and locked, these have no firing pin locks, and would likely fire, if dropped from 10 stories, even with the safety on, yet many many tout this is the way to carry the 1911. In their advantage, the 1911 would likely need to strike on it's muzzle to drive the floating firing pin into the primer, consequently, the bullet would not be fired upward. All good and well, how often is this going to happen really? I would be more immediately concerned about snagging the trigger of my XD while holstering it.

I don't know if the safety on a 1911 completely blocks the hammer in the case of sear breakage, I just fiddled with mine, and the hammer pushes the thumb safety out of the way as it falls (if you cock the hammer as you move the safety on, then lower the hammer before full cock as the safety clicks on). It kinda sounds like a 1911 could fire if hit hard enough in the right spots, thumb safety on or not. The XD may have a slight advantage here, however, I wouldn't like the idea of tumbling down a mountain side with my XD getting pulled and bumped by every rock, vine, stump, branch and bush all the way down to the river bed either.
 
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Well...Now for the counterpoint that's sure to raise a few hackles.
Hammer cocked and the safety in the fire position...the half-cock is still operational should the hammer hooks lost contact with the sear...so the hammer will be stopped before reaching the slide.

The grip safety still blocks the trigger.

In a demonstration several years ago, I used a Dremel cutoff wheel to remove a full 1/8th inch from the sear crown. Not only did the half-cock still grab the hammer before it reached the slide...the hammer held full cock and functioned in live fire for about 30 rounds before I started getting followdown and doubles.

As noted, the thumb safety was added for purposes of reholstering...not for cocked and locked carry.
Not suggesting that anyone carry the gun in Condition Zero...only that it can be. Just be careful not to tickle the trigger as it's presented.
 
I wouldn't carry with the safety off but....

On the occassions where I have found that my safety has been accidently swiped off, I now get less freeked out.
 
Cocked & Locked

Always been curious about who started the school of "cocked & locked" carry. I tried it and it seemed ( IMHO) to at all times demand a very high level of concentration and practice to both carry and deploy the gun safely.

Waaaay back, when I was young an accepted method of carry was : round in the chamber and hammer down, thumb cock the gun on the way up.
Guys who grew up in the SW, with the old Colt SA Army`s thought that was fine.

Obviously, that has problems too, but seemed a safer way to carry.

My current preference is : hammer down on an empty chamber, rack the slide on the way up.
 
Carrying cocked and locked goes back as far as the gun itself, though it wasn't common.
Most people who carried the big Colt did so either in Condition 2 or 3...or on half-cock...which is a de facto safety position despite howls from the uninformed that it's not.

Jeff Cooper is largely or possibly solely responsible for the emergence of commonly carrying the 1911 cocked and locked.

It's not really that risky. Just don't pull the trigger until you're ready and prepared to fire.
 
A cocked and locked 1911 is , in my opinion, one of the safest CCW's out there. The 1911 has rediculous redundant safeties that no other pistol has.

To get a 1911 hammer to strike the firing pin hard enough to fire the weapon without the user pulling the trigger is impossible, even with the safety off.

1. If the gun gets hit hard, the sear may jostle loose and let the hammer fall. But it has to be one hell of a hard lick. Not that it matters, the redundant half cock notch will still catch the hammer. It still can't hit the firing pin.




2. The drop required to move the firing pin forward hard enough to set off a primer without help from the hammer is a huge drop. And the gun has to land nose down. Hardly likely.

Lightweight Ti firing pins are available to lessen this as a problem, as are heavy weight firing pin springs. Some 1911's even have modern firing pin blocks that eliminate this completely. I avoid those as it just is overkill at that point.




3. The grip safety blocks the trigger. No way a hard hit is going to pull the trigger via momentum.

4. I've never heard of a 1911 ND or AD of any sort. Closest thing I've heard is a poorly maintained 1911 double or triple firing at the range. Maintain your pistol.


The bottom line is that the secondary half cock notch on the hammer will save the 1911.

I recommend Ravens concealment and Crossbreed holsters for the 1911. If you wanted to chop the back top off of the Ravens Holster so that you could reach the safety and turn it off, I don't see the problem. Carry safety on primarily, but when in dangerous Amish territory, I have no problem with you carrying safety off.

For those that fear cocked and locked carry. Take your 1911 apart. Learn how it works. The safety holds the Sear down. That Sear isn't going anywhere.

Still need more piece of mind? Fit Wilsons highest quality tool steel trigger parts to your 1911. Not too expensive, easy to do, very strong and safe. If you have a quality hammer, sear, leaf spring, and disconnector you'll be good to go.
 
open your pocket knife and stick the blade in your pocket. nothing bad can happen if you're careful.
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Not even close to being the same. The 1911's trigger can not be pulled without the grip safety being depressed. One guy here, forgot his name, carries his 1911 without the safety on and hes being doing it for some 30 years I believe just like that and it hasn't gone off yet. Its just like carrying a Springfield Armory XD. I have one and my opinion the trigger safety is redundant because of the grip safety.
 
When an individual has carried a 1911 for forty years, and had competed extensively during that time with the 1911, hears "cocked and no safety" the hair stands up on the neck. To carry a "safe action" causes some concern. To carry "cocked and locked" makes the world a better place.
We speak from our comfort zone or from knowledge gained by word of mouth.
 
moonpie...that didn't happen because the safety was off. It happened because he wiped off the sasfety in the holster and he had his finger on the trigger and the gun got hung up on the rig as he was clearing...uh...plastic.

Gun hit a speed bump...hand kept pulling...finger kept pulling. Bang.

That's one of the reasons that I don't like retention holsters for a 1911. Make mine a simple, open-topped rig, please.
 
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Keep it simple. I designed this to be similar to my Ravens holster. Just grip and go. It differs as I added a form fitted sweat shield that holds the safety on.

Once I get a firm grip with my 3 fingers I pull it out. My thumb and trigger finger stay fully extended.

I land my thumb on the safety as I rotate forward. Usually I'm 45 degrees forward at that point or more.
 
slow is fast - best practiced, tested/first

...

I've had my slide lock knocked down, off, a few times while gardening in my back yard and thru a lot of bending, crawling, (damn leaves) at the end of the work cycle as I removed my holster and gun, ( I always chk) and the slide lock safety was off, yet the 2 other safety's were still "at work" doing what they will do if all "safety conditions are not met" and trigger finger remains outside the trigger guard until rdy to take the shot - Gun was, and is, safe cocked and, still, locked..

In a way, it was another test of fire, so to speak, that has made me a believer in the 1911, its safety's designs and its means of carry, safely, under all conditions, up to the point IF needed -

It happened because he wiped off the safety in the holster and he had his finger on the trigger and the gun got hung up on the rig as he was clearing...uh...plastic.

Gun hit a speed bump...hand kept pulling...finger kept pulling. Bang.

*That's one of the reasons that I don't like retention holsters for a 1911. Make mine a simple, open-topped rig, please.
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- *less is more, believe it


Ls
 
The difference is that you can drop your XD with round chambered off a 10 story building to hard pavement and it will not go off The only thing that will fire the round is if the trigger is pulled.
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Designing safety features to cover possibilities more remote than being struck by lightning needlessly complicates an inherently simple design.

The reason the FP safety was developed is not because guns discharged when dropped, but because people who discharged them said so.
 
I suppose you could carry in Condition Zero (as Jeff Cooper called it). The grip and (if equipped) firing pin safeties would prevent firing if the gun is dropped, and the half cock/safety stop would prevent firing if the sear or hammer hooks failed. But you won't see me doing it. (At least, not without a lot of convincing.) Even a DA/SA with its hammer cocked and the trigger to the rear in SA mode, or a Glock, has some distance to be pulled, while a 1911 has little or none.
 
Fast draw is risky, no matter the skill level of the pistolero. Even one of the fast draw masters Bill Jordan cautioned against using live ammunition for practice and exhibition, and advised to only go hot when the game is real.

Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast. A leg wound ain't no joke when you're in the operating room. This guy was very lucky. If that bullet had hit his foot, he may well have been looking at being a cripple for life. I know a guy who shot himself in the foot with a .22 Magnum. After a long, painful fight...he wound up losing the foot.
 
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