1911 cocked, safety off carry?

[06]

A NC Patrolman buddy said he tossed his 1911 onto his seat and it went off. Did not call him a liar but seriously doubt it was a 1911. I cannot concieve of one going off, uncocked and with a safety on. On carrying C&L, safety is more important than speed to me. If the situation gets dangerous I can easily cock and would probably have it drawn at that point anyway.

 

[wildehond]

That video is a serious wakeup call to everyone. That happens so easily.

But it is noteworthy that he said he practiced with the Glock earlier that day... Choose one weapon as defense handgun and stick to it. How many hours of dry runs did he do before he tried that with live ammo. Firearms is dangerous! Never forget that.

We should all take note and take care.

 

[trlhrv]

I feel that cocked and locked is the best way to carry a 1911. From what I read, Browning's initial design had only the thumb safety but the US Gov. required the grip safety for the trials. Savage also competed for the contract and had to modify their entrant with a grip safety as well. After losing the competition to Colt, Savage omitted the grip safety on their small .32 and .380 pistols sold to the US public.

By retaining the grip safety Colt and later manufacturers made cocked and locked the safest and most practical way to carry.

 

[1911Tuner]

Nope. The original eight prototypes that Browning submitted had the grip safety, but no manual/thumb safety. The manual safety was added at the behest of the US Cavalry in order to let a mounted trooper place the gun on-safe and reholster it to free up his hand when he found himself trying to hang onto a frightened, bucking horse.

Six of the eight were retrofitted with the safety...resubmitted...and the rest is history.

Here's one of only two of the originals in existence. 1910 Colt Photo courtesy of Charles W. Clawson

 

[bigfatdave]

uncocked and with a safety on

what 1911 can be placed on "safe" with the hammer down?

 

[PO2Hammer]

Waaaay back, when I was young an accepted method of carry was : round in the chamber and hammer down, thumb cock the gun on the way up.

That was before the beavertail grip safety and speed hammers, wasn't it?
I tried cocking a 'modern' 1911 one handed, not easy or natural at all. Tried it with a friend's mil spec, much better, but still not as natural as a SAA type revolver.

I wonder, did those early mounted troops have trouble with one handed cocking?

 

[1911Tuner]

Quote:

>I wonder, did those early mounted troops have trouble with one handed cocking? <

The problem with thumb cocking a 1911 is that most people don't know how. They pull the gun and then try to manipulate the hammer. Awkward and plumb fulla fail.

The proper way is to cock the hammer while it's still in the holster, just as the hand finds the gun and before the full firing grip is attained. A littler practice makes it much smoother and faster than one would imagine, especially if the hammer is at half-cock.

And, yes. "Speed" hammers and ducktail grip safeties make it much more difficult. Nothing is gained without something else being lost.

 

[Sniper X]

My TWO cents

For what it's worth! I have been CCW the 1911 cocked and locked for so many years, and even check it numerous times a day to make sutre the safety is on, that I would feel funny CCW cocked and locked but the safety off. However, if I was in a wartime situ, or that of a hostile fire probability more-so than the South Valley in Albuquerque, I would carry in that mode for sure. I can draw and fire well and quickly when the safety is already off. Prety fast as well with it on as long as I carry one of my 1911s that has an ambi safety since I am left handed.

 

[Jim Watson]

Geez, everybody tries to justify their preference based on what they think John Browning and the Army had in mind a hundred years ago. Fashions change.

I daresay they didn't use a telephone the way we do, either.

I never tried thumb cocking a gun in the holster, whether SAA or 1911. The guys who do that with SAAs like to have a 45 degree deflector plate on the bottom of their holster, just in case. I did carry a gun in Condition 2 for a good while, even have a Commander with a spur hammer and GM grip safety installed for the purpose. But I finally caught on that the safety was easier... if you weren't lefthanded like the guy who taught me C2.

 

[Nushif]

I find drawing my TT 33 clone and cocking the hammer from half cock is actually very very easy.
But in a 1911, while I trust the grip safety, the hammer is way harder to cock on the draw for me. It might be the grip angle or something, but I do have to admit that ever since I actually really played with my TT 33 clone, the notion of the half cock as a safety is pretty nifty.
So it's back to carrying with the safety and practicing the swipe again, I guess. 8) Simply because there is something to be said for your carry method being supported by outside training.

 

[1911Tuner]

Nushif...You don't cock it on the draw. You cock it before you start the draw. If you've got a rowel hammer and an upswept grip safety, it'll be harder to do.

 

[Effigy]

I would expect it's easier to cock before the draw, but aren't you giving up some of the safety aspect in that case? It seems like most NDs occur while drawing or reholstering a pistol, and given the light trigger on a 1911 it seems more likely there if the safety is off.

As an aside, this is why I prefer a DA/SA trigger. There's no manual safety to futz with but you still you still have access to a light SA pull.

 

[JTQ]

bigfatdave wrote,
what 1911 can be placed on "safe" with the hammer down?

I believe the poster did make an error in his comment about a hammer uncocked with the safety engaged. However, for the trivia lovers, you can do this with the SFS installed. I'm not a fan, but it is available.

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/SFScustommod.shtml

 

[1911Tuner]

Effigy...Cocking on the draw is no more unsafe than wiping off the safety before the gun clears leather...which many of us do...me included. Pulling the trigger is what makes the gun fire...not cocking the hammer.

Bottom line:

It's a gun. It's not safe.

 

[bigfatdave]

you can do this with the SFS installed.

I was aware of the SFS concept, and there's the Para-Ordanance LDA as well.

I'd say thaty those pistols are M1911-like or "modified M1911" or "altered M1911 type" guns, and while such guns may be fine and dandy, once you start monkeying with the core features of the gun, it stops being a basic "1911".

 

[1911Tuner]

Dave...Bingo.

IMO, the SFS is an ingenious answer to a question that didn't need to be asked.
It adds unnecesasary parts...and the more gadgets it's got, the more "Murphy" it gets.

Although the 1911 wasn't designed specifically to be carried cocked and locked...it's designed so that it can be carried that way with confidence...assuming that everything is in proper working order. While the only way to assure that any gun is safe is to never load it, the redundant systems in the 1911 make it as safe as the user. If you don't screw up...it won't likely screw up, either.

 

[Tallinar]

I've always been drawn to 1911's, and have owned several of them to date; but as much as I love and cherish their history and love their design, I must admit that I do have my own reservations about carrying them. As several have indicated, this is one topic where we form our opinions based largely on what we're personally comfortable with.

While I have full mechanical confidence in the safeties of a 1911 (thumb safety, grip safety, and half-cock), I still end up feeling nervous about that fact that there is nothing between my firing pin and my hammer when you get into discussing what happens with a dropped gun. I have this terrible image in my mind of dropping the gun and having it discharge. Then again, I've never dropped a gun to date, so I know many folks would say this is a needless concern if we simply follow the basic gun safety rules that we've all followed since we were young.

Honestly though, I'm currently deciding if I would feel more comfortable carrying my .45 Vaquero (SA revolver with transfer bar) than I would with carrying my 1911. Though I know some may find that a laughable comparison, it really does end up with what you're comfortable with. Though I started out a complete fan of automatics, I've come to respect and be quite comfortable with the fact that my Vaquero (any revolver in general) is carried without the mainspring under tension, and even if inadvertently cocked, the transfer bar will not allow the hammer to deliver force to the firing pin without a full, deliberate trigger pull.

In the end, there is no substitute for safe handling - regardless of what you decide to carry.

 

[Nushif]

Honestly though, I'm currently deciding if I would feel more comfortable carrying my .45 Vaquero [...]

For reasons utterly different than yours I would never feel undergunned carrying a .45 Colt Vaquero. It's a fine choice! Even though I don't necessarily agree with your reasons.
But as you, yourself put it rather well ... "it really does end up with what you're comfortable with." And I'll be the last to dispute that.

 

[GLOOB]

OP:
I'm not a 1911 expert, but couldn't the trigger actually get pulled if the gun were dropped muzzle up? The inertia of the trigger and trigger bar would continue backwards, like on a Glock. But there's no trigger safety thingy to block it from firing on its own.

But in principle, if the gun were reasonably drop safe and had a reasonable trigger weight, I see no reason you couldn't carry a cocked 1911 without a safety.

I've carried 1911s for years and years...and have occasionally discovered the safety wiped off, whether carrying CCW, in a thigh rig, or vest mounted on armor. Ambidextrous safeties are famous for coming off safe while you aren't paying attention.

This is the reason I don't like most manual safeties. I'd rather have no external safety than one that can accidentally get bumped.

IMO, Beretta has come close to perfecting the manual safety. The one on my Cougar stays put when on safe, and it's spring loaded to the fire position. It's the only manual pistol safety I've come across that I don't mind, at all. If I choose to use it, I'm confident it will stay on. If I choose not to use it, I'm confident it will stay off.

 

[wildehond]

I'm not a 1911 expert, but couldn't the trigger actually get pulled if the gun were dropped muzzle up? The inertia of the trigger and trigger bar would continue backwards, like on a Glock. But there's no trigger safety thingy to block it from firing on its own.

No, the grip safety will prevent the trigger from activating because of the inertia of the trigger moving back.

I have personally tried and tried very hard to pull the trigger on my 1911 with only the grip safety in place. Could not do it. I always carry cocked and locked though. Even my CZ75 I used to carry like that. The CZ went through two motorcycle offs without any problem. I had to look for the gun in the bushes the one time though. Found it with the safety still on.

 

[1911Tuner]

GLOOB...The 1911's safety is also spring loaded to stay in the safe position. Correctly fitted, it's unusual for it to be inadvertently disengaged in a holster during the course of the day...but there are a few thumb-break rigs that will push one to the fire position.

But...

The grip safety is still in operation, and unless the trigger is pulled and held, the half-cock will arrest the hammer should the sear suddenly disintegrate into powder.

I once arranged a demonstration for a guy who was unconvinced in which I used a Dremel cutoff wheel to remove a full 1/8th inch from the sear crown. Not only did the half-cock grab it and hold...the hammer would remain at full cock and actually fired and functioned normally for over 30 rounds until I started to get followdown. I then ground the full-cock hooks off the hammer...thumbed it back and released it...and the half-cock stopped it short of the firing pin. I stopped trying after a couple dozen attempts.

 

[Zerodefect]

OP:
I'm not a 1911 expert, but couldn't the trigger actually get pulled if the gun were dropped muzzle up? The inertia of the trigger and trigger bar would continue backwards, like on a Glock. But there's no trigger safety thingy to block it from firing on its own.

The grip safety blocks the trigger bar exactly the same way the Glocks drop safety blocks it's trigger from moving. It's only at the back of the gun where it belongs
on a 1911.

If the 1911 was dropped barrel up. The same momentum force that would try to pull the trigger back would also pull the grip safety back firmly (the grip safety is allready held back by the leaf spring anyways). The grip safety would block the trigger from moving.

The 1911 grip safety is the same levered trigger block as the Glock trigger drop safety. Only the 1911's is on the back of the gun, where it belongs and is hardly noticeable, instead of on the trigger.

It would rock if Glock used a 1911 style grip safety instead of that gay trigger drop safety. Then we could have a nice smooth trigger shoe instead of that oddly shaped rubbish Glock uses. My Glock 23 has wicked trigger bite and alot of that problem is that stupid safey lever diggin into my finger. Even the Glockworx trigger deos it.

 

[TonyT]

While I shoot several 1991's in the usual pistol games I would not carry a 1911 style pistol. For defensive purposes IO prefer a pistiol without an external hammer or any external safeties.

 

[bigfatdave]

It would rock if Glock used a 1911 style grip safety instead of that <really?> trigger drop safety. Then we could have a nice smooth trigger shoe instead of that oddly shaped rubbish Glock uses.

Such a pistol exists, they call it the Springfield XD or HS2000 ... just put a heat-shrink tube on the trigger if it offends.

 

[GLOOB]

GLOOB...The 1911's safety is also spring loaded to stay in the safe position.

That's not what I was getting at. On a 1911, I assume there's a spring loaded detent plunger that keeps the lever in position. At least that's what it feels like. Same as most of the other guns I've actually taken apart, including various 9x18 surplus guns and a Daewoo DP-51 I used to have.

The safety lever can be easily pushed halfway to the on position, and it just stays there in the middle. At least on my buddy's Gold Cup. It actually tends to stick there at the halfway point when trying to set the safety on. There's even a click. Then if you press up much harder, there's a little crunch when it finally goes all the way up. This is mildly irritating and does not inspire confidence.

The Cougar has a very strong spring loaded detent/pin to keep it on safe. But the lever, itself, is also spring loaded like a switch blade knife. When you get enough pressure to take it off safe, it flips up the rest of the way by itself. If you push it down partway and let go, it springs fully back up to the fire position. There's no detent in the fire position, because it's not needed. And it's smooth, smooth, smooth, until it gets all the way down, where it snicks into place. Many other decocker/safeties work in a similar fashion, but not all. My PA63, for example, isn't spring loaded. When you flip the safety/decocker off, it's possible to get it only halfway to fire, and it stays there.

Hmm, just an afterthought here. But I would guess a spring loaded decocker/safety could easily be converted to a decocker-only by removing a plunger pin and spring, unless the spring has more than one function.