1911 : Condition 0 vs Condition 2

[Vern Humphrey]

There is a continuing erroneous belief the 1911 was designed to be carried only in Condition 1 (C&L). Absolutely not true. It is a mantra repeated, but it is not true. The gun was originally designed by Browning to be carried (as we now label them) condition 3 or condition 2. His final prototype submitted to the army did not have a thumb safety. After evaluating the gun, the Army asked for the thumb safety to be added, Browning and his team added it, and the additional carry option we know as 'Condition 1' was now an option. The original field manuals for the gun describe how to carry it in all conditions - 1, 2, and 3.

I would be interested in any cite to an actual Field Manual that authorizes or suggests Condition 2.

Here is a site where you can find a copy of FM 23-25, dated around 1940, which says the normal method of carry in combat is what we call "Condition 3" but if a round is chambered and the gun is to be kept ready for immediate use, then what we call "Condition 1" is to be used. No mention of what we call "Condition 2."

http://www.sightm1911.com/

 

[Frank Ettin]

...There is no safety issue with carrying the gun in Condition 2....

I tend to agree that simply carrying 1911 in condition 2 presents no safety issue. And whatever safety issue may obtain in the process of putting the gun into condition 2 is within the control of the user and manageable. To me the issue still is that cocking the hammer quickly on a 1911 under stress can be a tricky matter (e. g., there's the risk of short stroking the hammer), especially under circumstances in which a delay may be hazardous to your health.

And for carrying the gun without a holster, I think condition 3 makes better sense, even though you'll need two hands to make it ready.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...No mention of what we call "Condition 3."...

Vern, I think this is a typo. Do you mean "condition 2"?

 

[1911Tuner]

I would be interested in any cite to an actual Field Manual that authorizes or suggests Condition 2.

You won't find it. As with any other smallarm, Uncle Sugar's doctrine was empty chamber unless and until action is iminent. On patrol in the boonies would qualify.

In the rear with the beer...wouldn't.

Condition 1 or 2 in any situation where action isn't iminent would warrant disciplinary action...but regs were broken as the distance from the boss grew. Men who carried the 1911s probably regularly carried hammer down on a loaded chamber when they were far from the "By the Book" spit'n'shine boys to give the impession of obeyance. Dang, Skipper! There were probably even a few who had one who weren't even supposed to have one...tucked away in a rucksack...and they probably carried'em hammer down on a hot chamber too.

 

[Bullnettles]

No, you don't.

You can de-cock a standard 1911 by thumbing the hammer back until the hammer spur depresses the grip safety tang.

Then pull the trigger and lower the hammer.

There is no need atall to use the "ham of your hand" to depress the grip safety.

The hammer spur does it nicely.

rc

Couldn't have said it better myself. My father berated me for decocking one-handed, so I tried two and my hand slipped. Good thing we were done. It was safely pointed away as this happened, but let's just say he didn't care how it was done after that. I never had a slip one-handed.

 

[razorback2003]

Cocked and Locked Way to Go

I don't own a 1911 but have shot them any chance I can get, so do have an understanding. It is not very safe to uncock a 1911 with a round in the chamber, unless you are pointing in a safe direction at a shooting range. It would be similar to what can happen when trying to lower the hammer on a revolver and your finger slips and your finger is on the trigger....the gun goes BOOM! It is much safer to chamber a round with your finger OFF the trigger and then put the handgun on safe, then holster your handgun. The deal with the 1911 is there is no sort of decocker like a Sig. It is much quicker to flip the safety off to fire than to every try to cock the handgun with a chambered round.

 

[ROBBY.1911]

the safety issue lies in not knowing how to carry your own gun. get yourself to an idpa match and start learning how to do it right. you owe it to yourself and others.

 

[rjsixgun]

Personally I hate de-cockers and never trusted them. I think they drop the hammer to hard and people trust them to much. But thats just me. The 1911 is a great gun how you carry it is up to you and it is safe in 1-2 or 3 but never 0.

One should know ones firearm inside and out befor carry'n it in any condition. If your afriad to decock a 1911 then you should not carry one. That also goes for Cocked and Locked, dont carry one if your afraid of it.

My wife carries a CZ 75B, because its always at the ready in C2, she has no problem de-cocking a 1911 or a CZ 75 she just likes the fact that the CZ can fire from C2, No De-cocker, and no Safety to fumble with! she just loads it, decocks it and puts it on her hip or in her purse!
My 1911 either rides in my glove box or on my back C1 or C2 depending on the day. But Yes Safetys can accidentaly slip off!! More often than your thumb slipping off a hammer.

But I will also say this about my 1911's there in there ORIGINAL forms, meaning WIDE SPUR hammers and GI type Grip Safety. Decockig 1911's only becomes a problem when you mess with perfection with bobbed hammers and beaver tail grip safeties.

Hammer Bite is another myth of the 1911, if your holding it right...it dont bite!

 

[sarduy]

Bottom line:

It's NOT safe. It's a GUN.

i agreed 100%.


when i carry my 1911 (not my primary choice but a well suited option) i carry it with an empty chamber and safety off, i don't know if it's a good idea or not, but it takes the same time for me to cock the hammer or move the slide back. i dont really need a safety all i need is a round in the chamber.

BTW what condition is that?

empty chamber, safety off uncocked hammer?

 

[Frank Ettin]

Empty chamber is condition 3. The primary drawback of condition 3 is that it takes two hands to quickly get the gun into play, and you may not have the use of your other hand in an emergency.

I'm quite comfortable with my Commander, CCO or Officer size 1911s in condition 1. I've never had a safety disengage in the holster. The safeties on all my 1911s have a very positive engagement; and all my 1911s have beaver tails and "commander style" hammers. And since any 1911 of mine while "in service" is in condition 1, I never have to think about what I may have to do to make it ready. It will always be the same drill -- swipe off the safety.

Disengaging the thumb safety is not an issue. I shoot with a high thumb, and I've trained and practiced extensively swiping it off on presentation from the holster. So there's no fumbling involved.

 

[mljdeckard]

There is one situation where I carry with the hammer down on a loaded chamber.

I often use a fanny pack, and once I opened it to find that the safety was off, with the hammer cocked. To this day, I don't know if I forgot to safe it when I put it in there, or if I was moving about and somehow knocked it off. But I decided then, that if I carry it in a place where A:, I can't touch it to check it whenever I want to, and B; it's going to take more than a second to draw it anyway, I'll leave the hammer down and cock it while I draw.

I have learned to uncock it one hand, but I don't do it. Even if it's pointed in a safe direction, a slip on that hammer would likely result in that slide breaking my thumb. I have never, even in practicing, lost my grip on the hammer and had the safety notch catch it. (It's not likely it WOULD catch it, if I have the trigger depressed.) In every game of chance there is a measure of inevitability. I usually go so far as to grip the hammer with the thumb and finger of my left hand as I release it.

 

[Oldtrader3]

The idea is and always has been always carry the same way every time you carry for combat. Condition 1 is the condition for combat if you want to live through it! Carry with no round in the chamber is the alternative. These are the only two ways or conditions that I will carry a 1911 pistol. I was trained by the U.S. Army and by the NRA to carry in Condition 1 for combat or with an empty chamber. Anything else is someone's personal weird perversion of common sense and logic, period!

 

[DougDubya]

Not quite. The ergonometrics of the M1911 make for a difficult handhold while decocking one-handed -- you have to hold the hammer with your thumb, depress the grip safety with the ham of your hand, and pull the trigger with your forefinger. Murphy is looking over your shoulder as you do this.

Decocking is an after-action event, for when you can concentrate on doing it. Otherwise, decocking a 1911 for Condition Two carry is a two-handed operation, with both eyes on the firearm, and the muzzle pointed at a safe backstop in the event of a slip.

(Which is why I like DA's with good decockers or SA's with ambis, or Safe Action/USA/DAO.)

And yet another myth rears up.

The 1911 wasn't designed...nor was it intended...to be carried in any single way. It was designed to be safe to carry in any condition that the user chooses...at least, as safe as a loaded gun can be.

Thank you, sir. I've yet to see a photograph of John Moses Browning with a 1911 in a belt holster, either in Conditions Zero, One or Two.

It's NOT safe. It's a GUN.

As the woman said to the Texas Ranger - "Isn't that gun dangerous?"
"If it weren't, it wouldn't be any use to me, would it?"

 

[DougDubya]

Personally I hate de-cockers and never trusted them. I think they drop the hammer to hard and people trust them to much. But thats just me. The 1911 is a great gun how you carry it is up to you and it is safe in 1-2 or 3 but never 0.

One should know ones firearm inside and out befor carry'n it in any condition. If your afriad to decock a 1911 then you should not carry one. That also goes for Cocked and Locked, dont carry one if your afraid of it.

My wife carries a CZ 75B, because its always at the ready in C2, she has no problem de-cocking a 1911 or a CZ 75 she just likes the fact that the CZ can fire from C2, No De-cocker, and no Safety to fumble with! she just loads it, decocks it and puts it on her hip or in her purse!
My 1911 either rides in my glove box or on my back C1 or C2 depending on the day. But Yes Safetys can accidentaly slip off!! More often than your thumb slipping off a hammer.

But I will also say this about my 1911's there in there ORIGINAL forms, meaning WIDE SPUR hammers and GI type Grip Safety. Decockig 1911's only becomes a problem when you mess with perfection with bobbed hammers and beaver tail grip safeties.

Hammer Bite is another myth of the 1911, if your holding it right...it dont bite!

Good points, sir.

When I think about the SIG Sauer's decocking action, I do feel an odd bit uneasy that the decocker doesn't move or interrupt the firing pin as it would have on a Beretta or Smith and Wesson. However, I've heard reports, from reputable people, that overriding the decocking lever of a SIG with manual operation, rests the hammer directly on the firing pin.

One alternative is a 1911/Browning Hi Power or a good DA revolver. Count Glocks and XD's if you don't mind the triggers (I never did.)

 

[JTQ]

If your afriad to decock a 1911 then you should not carry one.

I've got to disagree with this statement.

Sure you can use Condition 2 if you like, but owning/carrying a 1911 doesn't require you at any time to use Condition 2. Condition 2 is a fine choice for some, but it is just an option and not a requirement for carry/ownership of a 1911.

 

[fineredmist]

1. The original design submitted for reveiw to the U.S. Army had a thumb saftey but no grip safety. The Army wanted the grip safety to prevent a dischage if the loaded (cocked and locked) pistol should be dropped and hit the hammer and fire. The grip safety was the military add on.
2. If you are going to carry a handgun for personal protection it must be available for immediate use with minimum preparation. You must be able to draw and fire the weapon with one hand and in one smooth motion. You cannot carry a 1911 with a round chambered, with the hammer down and be able to draw and fire in a timely fashion. If you insist on being "safe" while carring a 1911 then carry it with a loaded magazine in and the chamber empty, it is quicker to chamber the round than to mess with cocking the hammer.
3. Troops in combat carry sidearms as last ditch weapons and they do not have the time to go from condition 1 (or whatever the insider term maybe) to get the gun into action immediately. Round chambered, hammer cocked, safety on is the drill.
4. If you have a problem with carring the 1911 cocked and locked with a round chambered then you should, (a) not carry one (b) get a revolver or (c) a "modern" auto with a hammer drop or get a Glock type auto.
5. If you are familiar with IDPA competion you will know that 1911 shooters start with a loaded pistol, cocked and locked and ready for the game. If you want to carry anyother way when you are perhaps facing the "ultimate" game of a gunfight go ahead and chance you can prep your gun. Personally I will carry my Glock with a round chambered in a holster designed to keep fingers from the trigger until needed.
6. If you can't handle carrying the 1911 ready to go, cocked and locked on a loaded chamber then don't carry it and stop this condition 1, 2, 3, 4 , etc. bs as you sound like a bunch of kids.

 

[HexHead]

Funny, I'm more nervous handling my Glock than I am with a cocked & locked 1911. I'm completely comfortable with carrying in Condition 1.

 

[DeepSouth]

The original design submitted for reveiw to the U.S. Army had a thumb saftey but no grip safety.

Are you sure about that?

Just asking cuz I have seen several pictures like this one.

 

[1911Tuner]

The original design submitted for reveiw to the U.S. Army had a thumb saftey but no grip safety.

That's backward. The prototypes submitted in 1910 had the grip safety, but no thumb safety. There were 8 or 9 of them...7 of which were retrofitted with the thumb safety and resubmitted for testing and approval.

The thumb safety was a request of the Cavalry...still horse-mounted in those days. The reason was to allow a mounted trooper to place the gun on safe with one hand and reholster while dealing with a frightened or unruly horse. Even then, they recognized the fact that sometimes men forgot to take their fingers off the triggers before jamming a gun into its holster. Apparently that's something that Gaston Glock overlooked. *snark*

 

[Alan Fud]

they recognized the fact that sometimes men forgot to take their fingers off the triggers before jamming a gun into its holster. Apparently that's something that Gaston Glock overlooked. *snark*

I love that!