1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
I'll second that. An idiot will always find a way to shoot himself and other people.
Why carry a 1911 in Condition 1 over Condition 2?
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I'll second that. An idiot will always find a way to shoot himself and other people.
MT GUNNY
Member
Here is my take on the subject.
When I bought my S&W 1911 I had no Idea the Controversy it provoked, or the history of the pistol. I didn't even know about the "conditions 0,1,2,3,4... " as I know them now. However I did examine the pistol and its workings, to the point that I knew i was going to carry it with a round in the chamber and the safety catch Up. I carry it that way to this day, no matter the situation. When I for what ever reason, need to De cock it, I drop the mag, Flip the safety off, manipulate the slide back to remove the round, Then return it to slide lock and pull the trigger. For me there is no other reason to do it differently. Its either Not in Use (unloaded) or In use (condition 1).
When I bought my S&W 1911 I had no Idea the Controversy it provoked, or the history of the pistol. I didn't even know about the "conditions 0,1,2,3,4... " as I know them now. However I did examine the pistol and its workings, to the point that I knew i was going to carry it with a round in the chamber and the safety catch Up. I carry it that way to this day, no matter the situation. When I for what ever reason, need to De cock it, I drop the mag, Flip the safety off, manipulate the slide back to remove the round, Then return it to slide lock and pull the trigger. For me there is no other reason to do it differently. Its either Not in Use (unloaded) or In use (condition 1).
Guys, I remember Colonel Cooper making a statement that to effect that with enough training the M1911 was a safe weapon. Something like that. Yet the good Colonel ought to have known, being in the military, that even if you provided sufficient training to 100% of the force, only a couple of percent would remember. Some of the guys who have been drafted were burning their 25 light bulbs at full brightness chipping paint.
Unfortunately it is a fallicous to assume that the military provides enough training. Training budgets are always cut first. Heck, Private Jessica did not know enough about her rifle to clear a jam. She said on TV, “my rifle jammed”. She had .001 percent weapon training and they sent her into a 360 degree combat zone.
And the powers that be have done that in every war. Our oldest Vet, he had a total of 20 shots of familiarization before he went to Guadalcanal, then Iwo, and finally Okinawa. He has told me that if his dad had not taught him how to shoot, he would not have made it alive out of the war.
You have to be very knowledgeable about the M1911 to avoid accidents. The M1911 requires you to stick your finger in the trigger guard, pull the trigger, to decock the thing.
I am 100% certain that has resulted in accidental discharges. Then the trigger is light, and if you are excited, a four pound trigger is hardly noticeable. I am certain that causes some accidental discharges, more so on single action weapons.
Look at a bit of firearms evolution.
The German P-38. Developed in the 30's and adopted in 1938. You do not pull the trigger to decock the thing. You put on the safety and the hammer drops. You cannot carry the thing “cocked and locked” You could carry the thing with the safety off and the hammer back, which would be dangerous, or you can carry the thing with the hammer down and the safety on, or you can carry the thing with the hammer down and the safety off. But your finger is not in the trigger guard when the hammer drops.
I think that may be why the safety is in such an awkward position. You have to shift your hand to flip the safety.
I have no doubt that the Germans were trying to prevent accidental discharges.
This is a Walther P-5. A 70's refinement.
It does not have a safety. You decock the thing, the hammer falls, and it is DAO first shot. Much simpler than fussing with a safety when your life is on the line.
I saw one of these U-Tube robberies. The store owner had a semi auto and the robber had a revolver. In the stress of the moment the store owner forgot to take the safety off. The robber got six shots off badly injuring the store owner. The store owner was on the ground begging for his life which made no difference to the robber who put the revolver to his head and pulled the trigger. Luckily, the revolver was empty, and the robber left.
The simpler and safer the mechanism the better.
Unfortunately it is a fallicous to assume that the military provides enough training. Training budgets are always cut first. Heck, Private Jessica did not know enough about her rifle to clear a jam. She said on TV, “my rifle jammed”. She had .001 percent weapon training and they sent her into a 360 degree combat zone.
And the powers that be have done that in every war. Our oldest Vet, he had a total of 20 shots of familiarization before he went to Guadalcanal, then Iwo, and finally Okinawa. He has told me that if his dad had not taught him how to shoot, he would not have made it alive out of the war.
You have to be very knowledgeable about the M1911 to avoid accidents. The M1911 requires you to stick your finger in the trigger guard, pull the trigger, to decock the thing.
I am 100% certain that has resulted in accidental discharges. Then the trigger is light, and if you are excited, a four pound trigger is hardly noticeable. I am certain that causes some accidental discharges, more so on single action weapons.
Look at a bit of firearms evolution.
The German P-38. Developed in the 30's and adopted in 1938. You do not pull the trigger to decock the thing. You put on the safety and the hammer drops. You cannot carry the thing “cocked and locked” You could carry the thing with the safety off and the hammer back, which would be dangerous, or you can carry the thing with the hammer down and the safety on, or you can carry the thing with the hammer down and the safety off. But your finger is not in the trigger guard when the hammer drops.
I think that may be why the safety is in such an awkward position. You have to shift your hand to flip the safety.
I have no doubt that the Germans were trying to prevent accidental discharges.
This is a Walther P-5. A 70's refinement.
It does not have a safety. You decock the thing, the hammer falls, and it is DAO first shot. Much simpler than fussing with a safety when your life is on the line.
I saw one of these U-Tube robberies. The store owner had a semi auto and the robber had a revolver. In the stress of the moment the store owner forgot to take the safety off. The robber got six shots off badly injuring the store owner. The store owner was on the ground begging for his life which made no difference to the robber who put the revolver to his head and pulled the trigger. Luckily, the revolver was empty, and the robber left.
The simpler and safer the mechanism the better.
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Billy Shears
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True, but entirely a moot point, since nearly everyone carrying the 1911 today is someone who chose it, rather than someone who had it issued to him.
You have it wrong; it is the shooter's negligence which causes the accidental discharges - the gun's mechanism merely facilitates it to varying degrees.
And since we're on that subject, you have to pull the trigger on a Glock to disassemble it. I am 100% certain that this has facilitated some accidental discharges. Many semi-autos have no magazine safety, and I am 100% certain that this too has facilitated some accidental discharges when someone has fired the "forgotten round."
Hell, I personally know a veteran police officer, who after a full week's training with a newly issued S&W 6906 (this was back in the '80s, when the Norfolk Police switched from .38 revolvers to 9mm autos), and despite this gun being a modern, DA auto, with a slide-mounted decocker safety, nevertheless managed to fire a round through his gas tank as he stood over his open trunk attempting to unload the weapon. That was before I joined the department, but I know the officer who did it, and several others who were there. They tell me that after a moment of shocked silence, and everyone realized that no one was hurt, there were cops curled up in the fetal position on the ground with tears rolling down their faces everyone was laughing so hard.
Negligent discharges can occur with ANY gun, if the shooter is careless enough. Some designs are merely slightly less forgiving than others, that's all. And as I said before, since today almost no one carries a 1911 who does not chose it for himself, there is no excuse whatever for his not familiarizing himself thoroughly with the pistol and its manual of arms.
They probably were. They also made changing magazines much, much slower, by moving the mag release from the frame to the base of the butt, and this was done to make it harder for soldiers to lose magazines. But like the slide-mounted safety, it makes the gun less user friendly. I don't know about you, but I for one don't want a gun that is less user friendly.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. All you need do -- and you should do this anyway, regardless of the weapon you carry -- is practice your draw enough to incorporate the series of motions firmly into your muscle memory (it takes a minimum of about 3000 repetitions of a motion to do this). Once it is in your muscle memory and you have achieved what is called "unconscious competence" -- i.e. the ability to execute that motion or series of motions totally without conscious thought, then you will do it automatically, every time, even under stress. Especially under stress, in fact. There is no "fussing" with the safety, because it's something you do automatically, without ever having to think about it (which also means you can't forget it). And you also then don't have to cope with 2 different trigger pulls under stress, which is known to cause many shooters to put their first shot one place, and all their follow up shots somewhere else.
See above. The store owner didn't practice enough. If you achieve that level of unconscious competence, this will not happen, and generation of people who have successfully deployed handguns with manual safeties have proven this is so over and over again.
Not it if makes the gun less user friendly it isn't. It comes down to this, especially when you are choosing the gun you yourself will carry: you can look for the most idiot-proof gun out there, or you can wise up and not be an idiot.
Billy covered Glock disassembly and we talked about Glock Thigh a few pages back.
And the more prone a nonchalant shooter is likely to treat it...nonchalantly.
Anyone not willing to take the time to train properly with a 1911 won't do so with any other type pistol.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
As do many other designs. The M94 Winchester...any double or single-action revolver...exposed hammer shotguns and rifles. Yet people decocked those for years, and still do.
Only when the cry went up...
"Cocked and Locked is the only way a 1911 should be carried because that's the way JMB intended."
...did it suddenly become so fraught with peril that the risk was equated to swimming in a school of sharks while sporting a bloody leg.
Yeah...there have been some surprise discharges from all of those guns, and there will be for as long as they're around, and people have been hurt and killed. People get hurt and killed accidentally from many things besides guns.
Learn how to do it correctly. Practice it. Don't point the gun at anything that you can't bear to see destroyed or killed. That includes parts of your own body...your dog...your kids...or your big-screen TV. Point it at something that will stop and contain a bullet. Dirt works well. The world is made of it, so it's not hard to find. Most of us have it in our yards. In the event that it is...a 2-foot stack of dry newsprint will suffice.
It does requires paying attention to what you're doing and remaining focused on the task. These seem to be things that some people simply aren't capable of, though...as evidenced by the death toll on our highways, painting our living rooms, and while mowing our lawns. I guess that there are some poor souls who can't be trusted to do anything more risky than toasting bread. These people should really leave guns alone, but that's another debate.
Not as safe as it sounds; usually involves a butter knife.
The 1911 definitely requires a different set of skills than, say a Glock, but IMO is no less safe (I truly believe it is safer), but, as Tuner mentioner, some people have trouble mowing the lawn. I once watched a mechanic break a u-joint trying to install it. Not a two-inch joint in a Chevy; this pup was at least seven inches across and weighed about 10 pounds. He had a propensity to screw up a radiator fill. Thank God he wasn't a firearm owner.
Don't disagree that practice makes perfect.
But the problem is, few people train that hard. Even when it is their life on the line.
It is especially puzzling that you have to force Cops to go to the range and shoot.
One gentleman I shoot with, he is a State Trooper District Manager. He has told me of Cops in his division who let their pump shotguns rust shut.
Hey, I am biased, I like revolvers.
Easy to use and dead nuts reliable. The middle one is my favorite pocket pistol.
I have copied some gruesome pictures of guys who put a bullet through their left hand, diassembling modern semiauto pistols.
Vern Humphrey
Member
If the sheep are straying, look to the shepherd.
Problems like that are solved by frequent inspections and penalties for those who fail the inspections.
Billy Shears
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That's their lookout. Lots of people smoke and drive without seatbelts and change lanes without checking their blindspots. Just because something is common practice doesn't mean it's in any way a good idea.
It just does not take that much to train oneself to operate a manual safety automatically. If you can't accomplish it, you should have an equally hard time unsnapping the thumb break on your holster? And reloading should be completely beyond your capacity if flipping off the safety is beyond you. It really only takes a minimal amount of practice time to build that very simple motion into one's muscle memory, and then just a little bit of reinforcement from time to time will keep it there. Yes it means a little effort is needed, but not much, and many people manage to do it.
That's because most cops are not gun enthusiasts, and they are just as lazy and complacent as people in any profession. For them, going to the range is work, not play, and they'd rather do something else.
See above, and Vern nailed the solution to that problem.
There's nothing wrong with a good revolver. I own and shoot several myself, and most of my house guns are revolvers. However I like autos better, especially single action autos. I shoot them better, and I can reload them much faster.
RSVP2RIP
Member
As originally intended....
Here is a picture of the original J. M. Browning prototype for the 1911 in the Browning Museum in Ogden, UT. Guess what it doesn't have. I think he intended it to be used with the half cock notch as the safety, just like his rifles. That doesn't mean its what is safest, or how I prefer to carry it. I'll take my chances and carry C&L. I feel confident with it that way.
Here is a picture of the original J. M. Browning prototype for the 1911 in the Browning Museum in Ogden, UT. Guess what it doesn't have. I think he intended it to be used with the half cock notch as the safety, just like his rifles. That doesn't mean its what is safest, or how I prefer to carry it. I'll take my chances and carry C&L. I feel confident with it that way.
tipoc
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If you've read this thread, or even portions of it, you know that there are experienced 1911 folks who do just that. At any rate you should know how to safely decock a 1911 or BHP by lowering the hammer to place the gun in condition 2. This is something you should know and practice if you choose to carry either of these guns. Comes in handy.
See post #281 for example.
tipoc
Warlokke
Member
As do many other designs. The M94 Winchester...any double or single-action revolver...exposed hammer shotguns and rifles. Yet people decocked those for years, and still do.
Only when the cry went up...
"Cocked and Locked is the only way a 1911 should be carried because that's the way JMB intended."
...did it suddenly become so fraught with peril that the risk was equated to swimming in a school of sharks while sporting a bloody leg.
Yeah...there have been some surprise discharges from all of those guns, and there will be for as long as they're around, and people have been hurt and killed. People get hurt and killed accidentally from many things besides guns.
Learn how to do it correctly. Practice it. Don't point the gun at anything that you can't bear to see destroyed or killed. That includes parts of your own body...your dog...your kids...or your big-screen TV. Point it at something that will stop and contain a bullet. Dirt works well. The world is made of it, so it's not hard to find. Most of us have it in our yards. In the event that it is...a 2-foot stack of dry newsprint will suffice.
It does requires paying attention to what you're doing and remaining focused on the task. These seem to be things that some people simply aren't capable of, though...as evidenced by the death toll on our highways, painting our living rooms, and while mowing our lawns. I guess that there are some poor souls who can't be trusted to do anything more risky than toasting bread. These people should really leave guns alone, but that's another debate.
1911Tuner....first common sense post I've seen about this topic. The gene pool is full of folks that need to be kicked out and life has a funny, and often lethal way, of doing that. C1, C2, C3....you are free to choose and if you choose a method that is beyond your skillset, then either develop the skillset, or prepare to leave the gene pool. Common sense.
Only when the cry went up...
"Cocked and Locked is the only way a 1911 should be carried because that's the way JMB intended."
...did it suddenly become so fraught with peril that the risk was equated to swimming in a school of sharks while sporting a bloody leg.
Yeah...there have been some surprise discharges from all of those guns, and there will be for as long as they're around, and people have been hurt and killed. People get hurt and killed accidentally from many things besides guns.
Learn how to do it correctly. Practice it. Don't point the gun at anything that you can't bear to see destroyed or killed. That includes parts of your own body...your dog...your kids...or your big-screen TV. Point it at something that will stop and contain a bullet. Dirt works well. The world is made of it, so it's not hard to find. Most of us have it in our yards. In the event that it is...a 2-foot stack of dry newsprint will suffice.
It does requires paying attention to what you're doing and remaining focused on the task. These seem to be things that some people simply aren't capable of, though...as evidenced by the death toll on our highways, painting our living rooms, and while mowing our lawns. I guess that there are some poor souls who can't be trusted to do anything more risky than toasting bread. These people should really leave guns alone, but that's another debate.
1911Tuner....first common sense post I've seen about this topic. The gene pool is full of folks that need to be kicked out and life has a funny, and often lethal way, of doing that. C1, C2, C3....you are free to choose and if you choose a method that is beyond your skillset, then either develop the skillset, or prepare to leave the gene pool. Common sense.
I've read it.
I'm certified by the NRA to teach Basic Pistol. I'm well aware of how to safely decock a 1911. I teach my students how to decock a double-action revolver because there really can be a situation where you might need to do that -- for example, you have cocked the hammer to fire single action when someone calls a cease-fire on the range.
But I still can't understand why you suggest that this is important knowledge for someone carrying a 1911. I carry mine condition 1. I have never needed to decock a 1911 on a loaded chamber. There simply is no need to do so unless you want to carry condition 2.
So, how, exactly, would this "come in handy?"
scoutsabout
Member
Loaded magazine.
Loaded chamber.
Cocked and locked.
Holstered.
.
Loaded chamber.
Cocked and locked.
Holstered.
.
My God, I can't believe supposedly intelligent people still insist on arguing about this. If you're NOT capable of safely de-cocking a 1911, or can't understand WHY one would ever need to be de-cocked, you have no business handling one. Period.
rodensouth
Member
I'm with you M1911. Since no one will enlighten us I guess I should lock up my pistols and meditate. Period.
xXxplosive
Member
Is there anyone here who is willing to detail the proper and safe Decocking Procedure for a 1911...?
Or is it some secret mojo shtick that's only supposed to be know by a few here who are not willing to share.
We are interested in learning from the experienced guys on board.
Or is it some secret mojo shtick that's only supposed to be know by a few here who are not willing to share.
We are interested in learning from the experienced guys on board.
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I just grab the hammer securely with the thumb, first and second fingers of my left hand so it can't get away, keeping the second finger between the hammer and firing pin. Then squeeze the trigger and gently lower the hammer. Ain't hard. FWIW, I rarely do this, my carry 1911 stays loaded and locked.
IMO, anybody that tries to de-cock a 1911 one-handed is a FOOL! Two-handed is perfectly safe.
IMO, anybody that tries to de-cock a 1911 one-handed is a FOOL! Two-handed is perfectly safe.
JTQ
Member
tipoc wrote,
I have no need for Condition 2 and never use it. I cannot think of any time where Condition 2 would provide me with an advantage. Others have concerns about Condition 1. If you like Condition 2 go ahead and use it, but don't try and make it a requirement for 1911 ownership, because it just isn't a requirement.
rondog wrote,
I disagree with both of these statements. What this thread is really about is that the 1911 gives you options. You can carry safely and handle it just about any way you want. If you don't like Condition 1, use Condition 2 or 3. If you don't like Condition 2, use Condition 1 or 3, etc. Just because something is capable of doing something it doesn't mean you have to use it, especially if you don't have a need to.
I have no need for Condition 2 and never use it. I cannot think of any time where Condition 2 would provide me with an advantage. Others have concerns about Condition 1. If you like Condition 2 go ahead and use it, but don't try and make it a requirement for 1911 ownership, because it just isn't a requirement.
rondog, please, explain to me when I would need to decock a 1911.
When I load my 1911, I insert a magazine, cycle the slide, apply the safety, top off the magazine and reholster. When I need to unload the gun, I remove the magazine, lower the safety, cycle the slide to remove the round from the chamber, lock open the slide, visually and manually check that the chamber and magwell are empty, close the slide, and dry fire in a safe direction. I can load, fire, reload, and unload my 1911, all without ever having to decock it.
So, once again, show me (and everyone else here) just how foolish I am. When, exactly would I need to decock a 1911 on a live round? I simply don't see any need to do so.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
To retrace my steps...
If we are taking to the boondocks, astride a 4-wheeler or engaging in other activities that would make it likely to encounter a lot of dirty stuff...Hammer down on an empty chamber with the gun in a flap holster would afford the internals a lot of added protection and still retain the ability to ready the gun with one hand. One of life's little trade-offs.
There are a few instances where Condition 2 makes sense.
As to the question of "need" it might be worth noting that only a small percentage of us have a real or defined need to carry a sidearm at all. We do it because we can...and because it comforts us...and because it's better to have it and not need it than vice-versa. The "Hope for the best/prepare for the worst" approach to life. I'm in that category, though several years ago, I did have a pressing need to carry due to some personal issues with a group of people who were completely serious about hastening my demise. Those issues have been resolved...mostly because two of them are doing long stretches at Club Fed, and the other has passed on to that great bike rally in the sky...so I've relaxed a bit.
But an actual need? A wise old salt once told me that if I actually need to carry a gun, I should carry two, and that people who don't need to carry one should carry one anyway...for that one in a million thing. In that light, a 5-shot snub-nosed .38 revolver will do.
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