If you're convinced that you 1911 would survive the class, your only net cost would be travel, lodging and food
1911 reliability in 2-3 day class
- Thread starter w129
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He's a one of the other members of this forum
Hmm, still trying to see how you get your support thumb over the ejection port. I just don't see how, unless the picture is out of context so to speak, perhaps the support hand was chambering a round or something.
Do they make a left handed Glock? I could see myself messing up shooting one of those right handed.
Do they make a left handed Glock? I could see myself messing up shooting one of those right handed.
Just an FYI the Kimber shown in the vid is not a new gun.. Kimber stopped putting external extractors on quite some time ago, they were widely known to have serious issues.. Wouldn't you know it not extracting was the issue shown by the fumbling owner.
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Thanks for all info, I'm new to the 1911, but not new to guns. I'm planning on taking a couple of classes in 2014 with one being a 3 day class and 2000 rounds.I was planning on taking my DW Guardian which has about 700 rounds through it since new. The only problems I had with it were in the first 50 rounds and they were all RTB issues, I put a few drops of EWL on it and has since run flawlessly. I will take my Glock 20 as a back up (hopefully I won't need it).
Is there any spare parts (I plan to bring at least six magazines for each) for both the 1911 and Glock 20 I should bring along, just in case?
Is there any spare parts (I plan to bring at least six magazines for each) for both the 1911 and Glock 20 I should bring along, just in case?
It wouldn't hurt to take along an extra extractor (the one for the DW will need to be fitted)...maybe an extra Firing Pin stop
700 rounds isn't a whole lot of rounds...will it make it through all the mags without a stop?
I really like the DW line of 1911s and think it is one of the better out of the box 1911s for carry after being test with the mags and ammo I'd use (I like to shoot 200 rounds through it without a bobble)
I've heard a lot of good things about Slip 2000, but I'd still use a good grease on the frame rails...like Slide Glide
700 rounds isn't a whole lot of rounds...will it make it through all the mags without a stop?
I really like the DW line of 1911s and think it is one of the better out of the box 1911s for carry after being test with the mags and ammo I'd use (I like to shoot 200 rounds through it without a bobble)
I've heard a lot of good things about Slip 2000, but I'd still use a good grease on the frame rails...like Slide Glide
threoh8
Member
"The caveat is that the gun must not encounter mechanical malfunctions as well as operator error concerning the manual safety."
So ... what exactly is he teaching, if not how to operate the pistols quickly and well under stress?
So ... what exactly is he teaching, if not how to operate the pistols quickly and well under stress?
BSA1
member
If you're convinced that you 1911 would survive the class, your only net cost would be travel, lodging and food
Well I'm not sure exactly how the bankruptcy court judge will look at that....and there are little incidental expenses like filling the propane tank up before winter, putting up hay for the winter...you know little things you need to stay alive (dang livestock think they have to be fed all winter).
On the other hand it would be a heck of lot of fun.
One thing I have learned over the years is you can't win against a stacked deck, especially one like this.
For example the magazine is the weakest part of a semi-auto and their quality varies widely from manufacturer to manufacturer. When the gun has a feedway stoppage the two most common suspects are the ammo and the magazine. Since the round has been fired it is impossible to verify it as the cause.
Generally additional testing is required before the magazine is trashed but first we have to decide if the magazine is part of the gun that should be counted against it for a feedway failure.
Or is it a stand alone part?
And how do we judge a unknown $5.00 mag against a high quality, more expensive one such as Wilson or Shooting Star?
And magazines can and do fail on all makes of semi-autos so if one should fail on both a 1911 and a Glock won't that make both guns equally unreliable?
I consider a 1911 generally to be a cult gun...it has a very loyal following.
Glock is the much the same except the claims for it are more extreme...like it never breaks.
I am absolutely convinced two of my 1911s can go the distance if the issues with magazines and how shooter induced failures could be decided on which are both common to all semi-autos.
In all fairness both of them have been worked on by top notch gunsmiths. My basic one though is pretty much what Jeff Cooper recommended, trigger job, good sights, polished feedramp and tuned extractor. The other one...well it what happens when you read to many gun magazines and too much spare change.
Well I'm not sure exactly how the bankruptcy court judge will look at that....and there are little incidental expenses like filling the propane tank up before winter, putting up hay for the winter...you know little things you need to stay alive (dang livestock think they have to be fed all winter).
On the other hand it would be a heck of lot of fun.One thing I have learned over the years is you can't win against a stacked deck, especially one like this.
For example the magazine is the weakest part of a semi-auto and their quality varies widely from manufacturer to manufacturer. When the gun has a feedway stoppage the two most common suspects are the ammo and the magazine. Since the round has been fired it is impossible to verify it as the cause.
Generally additional testing is required before the magazine is trashed but first we have to decide if the magazine is part of the gun that should be counted against it for a feedway failure.
Or is it a stand alone part?
And how do we judge a unknown $5.00 mag against a high quality, more expensive one such as Wilson or Shooting Star?
And magazines can and do fail on all makes of semi-autos so if one should fail on both a 1911 and a Glock won't that make both guns equally unreliable?
I consider a 1911 generally to be a cult gun...it has a very loyal following.
Glock is the much the same except the claims for it are more extreme...like it never breaks.
I am absolutely convinced two of my 1911s can go the distance if the issues with magazines and how shooter induced failures could be decided on which are both common to all semi-autos.
In all fairness both of them have been worked on by top notch gunsmiths. My basic one though is pretty much what Jeff Cooper recommended, trigger job, good sights, polished feedramp and tuned extractor. The other one...well it what happens when you read to many gun magazines and too much spare change.
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RetiredUSNChief
Member
I'll take this with a grain of salt. Even go so far as a "whatever" with an eye roll to go along with it.
I don't have a problem with my full sized Colt 1991A1, factory original with no modifications.
A brother of mine with the Commander version of the Colt 1991A1 likewise does not have any problems. And unlike me, he HAS done quite a bit of combat and self-defense training with his.
I have no idea what the heck "catastrophic errors in regard to the use of the manual safety" is. Errors in the use of something like a manual safety is a TRAINING issue, not a MECHANICAL issue. If there are so many issues with respect to training, then perhaps this is an indication that the training is at fault and not the gun.
And if the issue with safeties is that Rob simply doesn't want to deal with teaching people how to properly use the safety devices on their firearms, then perhaps he should just come right out and say that.
It's obvious that Rob doesn't like 1911's in general ("I think 1911s are a bad idea to start with, but it is simply reckless to offer these mini-versions as defensive firearms to the public"), but if the 1911 platform was REALLY this bad in real life, then it would not have survived for over a century.
Things that make you say "Hmmmm..."
BUT, if good ole Rob Pincus wants to make such an offer, more power to him. Perhaps I'll even take him up on his offer some day, if someone hasn't already done so and passed his criteria.
But with my family and work load, I honestly don't see that happening in the near future. Too bad. I really would like to take such a course, regardless. And yes...I'd take my Colt 1991A1 to it. It's my normal carry weapon, and if there's going to be a problem with it, I'd like to find out. (But after 22 years, I'm thinking it'll do just fine.)
I don't have a problem with my full sized Colt 1991A1, factory original with no modifications.
A brother of mine with the Commander version of the Colt 1991A1 likewise does not have any problems. And unlike me, he HAS done quite a bit of combat and self-defense training with his.
I have no idea what the heck "catastrophic errors in regard to the use of the manual safety" is. Errors in the use of something like a manual safety is a TRAINING issue, not a MECHANICAL issue. If there are so many issues with respect to training, then perhaps this is an indication that the training is at fault and not the gun.
And if the issue with safeties is that Rob simply doesn't want to deal with teaching people how to properly use the safety devices on their firearms, then perhaps he should just come right out and say that.
It's obvious that Rob doesn't like 1911's in general ("I think 1911s are a bad idea to start with, but it is simply reckless to offer these mini-versions as defensive firearms to the public"), but if the 1911 platform was REALLY this bad in real life, then it would not have survived for over a century.
Things that make you say "Hmmmm..."
BUT, if good ole Rob Pincus wants to make such an offer, more power to him. Perhaps I'll even take him up on his offer some day, if someone hasn't already done so and passed his criteria.
But with my family and work load, I honestly don't see that happening in the near future. Too bad. I really would like to take such a course, regardless. And yes...I'd take my Colt 1991A1 to it. It's my normal carry weapon, and if there's going to be a problem with it, I'd like to find out. (But after 22 years, I'm thinking it'll do just fine.)
Old Dog
Member
I made it through a pretty advanced two-day pistol course requiring over 700 rounds with a Kimber Custom TLE II. Strangely, this pistol failed to malfunction even once. Silly me, of course, I'd brought a lightly modified Colt's Series 70 as a back-up but didn't need it .
Is Pincus still based in Colorado? I could make it out there during ski season ...
Is Pincus still based in Colorado? I could make it out there during ski season ...
RetiredUSNChief
Member
Hmmmm...
Seems to me that I'd do better to find a course which doesn't have such a bias against guns which have a safety.
And again with terms which have ambiguous definitions...what, pray tell, does "carryability" and "shootability" mean?
I guess it's just hard to believe the idea that 1911s are," inherently unreliable and a bad idea", considering the extensive battle history. My Grandfather always maintained that his had saved his life in combat.
But, I suppose I can't argue the point too much as I choose a polymer 9mm for carry. When it comes to punching holes in paper the 1911 is my first pick and in that regard I have not had any failures.
Perhaps the whole out look is from the sub compacts but he did extend the offer to any of them.
But, I suppose I can't argue the point too much as I choose a polymer 9mm for carry. When it comes to punching holes in paper the 1911 is my first pick and in that regard I have not had any failures.
Perhaps the whole out look is from the sub compacts but he did extend the offer to any of them.
moxie
Member
Whichever gun you bring to one of those high round count courses, be sure to clean and lube during the lunch break each day as well as at night. Also clean, check, each mag. Also with 1911s make sure grip screws are tight! Have the correct tool to tighten them.
BSA1
member
moxie,
One of my criteria for carrying a semi-auto is it must fire 500 rounds without cleaning and any malfunctions other than those determine to have been caused by ammunition, shooter error and magazine. If I can't determine the cause of the malfunction the testing starts all over
For example I currently have a old Ruger P-89 that has previously always been 100% reliable. After ignoring it for several years last year I dragged it out of the box and started having light hammer strikes. Given the age of the gun and the fact I brought it used many years ago with a unknown round count I suspected tired springs so I replaced all of them with new ones.
Guess what??? Still having light hammer strikes.
Well I am using my own reloads and have rarely had misfire problems. But when I inspect the remaining unfired rounds (350 =/-) left out of the batch low and behold I spotted a couple of high primers.
AHA! Careless reloading. (I reloaded these round many years ago so I don't know where my mind was when I seated the primers).
But then my son shoot 100 rounds from the same batch without a single problem from a different 9mm.
So back to the drawing board. I'm going to finish up shooting the suspect rounds as it will give practice with malfunction drills. Then reload using new more current production primers and powder and start the 500 round test all over.
Time consuming...yes.
Expensive...not really as I will do the testing as part of regular practice.
Demanding...dang right! There are no room for alibis in a self defense situation.
One of my criteria for carrying a semi-auto is it must fire 500 rounds without cleaning and any malfunctions other than those determine to have been caused by ammunition, shooter error and magazine. If I can't determine the cause of the malfunction the testing starts all over
For example I currently have a old Ruger P-89 that has previously always been 100% reliable. After ignoring it for several years last year I dragged it out of the box and started having light hammer strikes. Given the age of the gun and the fact I brought it used many years ago with a unknown round count I suspected tired springs so I replaced all of them with new ones.
Guess what??? Still having light hammer strikes.
Well I am using my own reloads and have rarely had misfire problems. But when I inspect the remaining unfired rounds (350 =/-) left out of the batch low and behold I spotted a couple of high primers.
AHA! Careless reloading. (I reloaded these round many years ago so I don't know where my mind was when I seated the primers).
But then my son shoot 100 rounds from the same batch without a single problem from a different 9mm.
So back to the drawing board. I'm going to finish up shooting the suspect rounds as it will give practice with malfunction drills. Then reload using new more current production primers and powder and start the 500 round test all over.
Time consuming...yes.
Expensive...not really as I will do the testing as part of regular practice.
Demanding...dang right! There are no room for alibis in a self defense situation.
moxie
Member
I'm sure you'll solve the problem eventually.
Regarding your 500 round criteria. That seems high to me, as I can't imagine a realistic SD scenario requiring the gun to go that long without clean and lube. To me, 100-200 rounds is enough. Even that is very high. Running the drills in SD courses is not representative of a single SD event, so clean and lube at lunch break is not being unrealistic, it's prudent and smart.
Regarding your 500 round criteria. That seems high to me, as I can't imagine a realistic SD scenario requiring the gun to go that long without clean and lube. To me, 100-200 rounds is enough. Even that is very high. Running the drills in SD courses is not representative of a single SD event, so clean and lube at lunch break is not being unrealistic, it's prudent and smart.
seastrike
Member
Shoot what you feel comfortable with and bring a spare.
One of my guns is a Ruger 1911. They are loose but both reliable and accurate. I've been shooting the Ruger at IDPA for 6 mos and have about 5k through it. Not a hiccup.
This is with 100% handloads of RN lead and shooting low powered loads.
It my opinion it's as reliable as my Glocks. It just weighs more and holds less rounds.
One of my guns is a Ruger 1911. They are loose but both reliable and accurate. I've been shooting the Ruger at IDPA for 6 mos and have about 5k through it. Not a hiccup.
This is with 100% handloads of RN lead and shooting low powered loads.
It my opinion it's as reliable as my Glocks. It just weighs more and holds less rounds.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
I don't think the intent is to have a gun which can sustain a theoretical 500 round fight. I think the intent is to exercise the weapon under arduous enough conditions to establish that one has an extremely high probability that the gun will 100% reliably function for the few rounds that it's actually needed in a self-defense scenario.
Marion Cobretti needs a gun which can sustain a 500 round fight. We do not.
~
BSA1
member
Moxie,
Like David some of my guns only get cleaned once a year like my Cowboy Action Shooting ones.
If my guns will run trouble free for 500 rounds than 100 rounds is a piece of cake. In your case you don't have any idea how many rounds past 100 your gun will continue to function.
I demand that all of my guns be reliable with high round counts. Demanding...yes. Unrealistic... Well when the stuff hits the fan I KNOW my gun will function as I have pushed it hard previously. When I worked at a Indoor Shooting Range we usually didn't clean the rental guns until they quit working. The round count in some of those guns easily passed 1,000.
Many shooters feel like you do. 50 rounds and it is good just like some shooters think shooting a 12" group at 7 yds is good enough marksmanship. But a gun that has to be cleaned every 50 - 100 rounds so it will keep working is unacceptable to me personally.
Like David some of my guns only get cleaned once a year like my Cowboy Action Shooting ones.
If my guns will run trouble free for 500 rounds than 100 rounds is a piece of cake. In your case you don't have any idea how many rounds past 100 your gun will continue to function.
I demand that all of my guns be reliable with high round counts. Demanding...yes. Unrealistic... Well when the stuff hits the fan I KNOW my gun will function as I have pushed it hard previously. When I worked at a Indoor Shooting Range we usually didn't clean the rental guns until they quit working. The round count in some of those guns easily passed 1,000.
Many shooters feel like you do. 50 rounds and it is good just like some shooters think shooting a 12" group at 7 yds is good enough marksmanship. But a gun that has to be cleaned every 50 - 100 rounds so it will keep working is unacceptable to me personally.
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moxie
Member
What I don't like about running a gun to a high round count has to do with what happens to that nice lube the gun started out with. It slowly becomes a very nice lapping compound that just wears the gun without really proving anything.
I agree that a gun shouldn't HAVE to be cleaned every 50-100 rounds, but it SHOULD, in my opinion, be cleaned often during high round count drills/courses/competitions.
I agree that a gun shouldn't HAVE to be cleaned every 50-100 rounds, but it SHOULD, in my opinion, be cleaned often during high round count drills/courses/competitions.
BSA1
member
Powder,
Cowboy Action Shooting is done with 19th Century firearms / clones or similar design such as the Ruger Vaquero that were used until 1899. The 1911 missed it by 12 years.
You are thinking of Wild Bunch matches for using the 1911.
Cowboy Action Shooting is done with 19th Century firearms / clones or similar design such as the Ruger Vaquero that were used until 1899. The 1911 missed it by 12 years.
You are thinking of Wild Bunch matches for using the 1911.
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