1911 reliability in 2-3 day class

[frankiestoys]

My STI is the best running 1911 I own while I've had a few issues with my Kimber or even my Sig I can't say I've ever experienced anything out of my Trojan and would trust it against anything

 

[savanahsdad]

Who is Rob Pincus? As of yet, he has not made himself know to me.

I use to watch him on the Outdoor Chanel "The Best Defense" the show had a lot of great ideas and tips, and a lot of the time he and the other host would say " do what works best for you " then there was the show where they were showing how bullets would go through house walls, I just grind for that one, as my house is made of old 2X4 and lath and plaster and there tests used sheetrock , and now I see he seems to be anti-1911, ?? just goes to show you can be a trainer with 10+ years and still be short bus smart. I'll stick with what he has said in the past and use what works best for me, and that would me my S&W1911 , not my G17, or my Ruger P89, or one of my wheel guns or a pocket gun , and the worst gun I have ever had was a S&W and the best guns I have ever had are S&W , so I don't get hung up on brands , but for type of gun ??? just can't beat a gun that feels right

 

[Zerodefect]

That opinion deos have plenty of ammo behind it. I'm inclined too agree. From an average users perspective the 1911 is rubbish. So are cheap AK's built in a damp chinese basement. And el cheapo AR's Nothing new there. The market is flooded with cheap guns.

-Not many 1911 builders avoid making smaller 1911's even though they know thier kinda weak in reliability.
-plenty of crappy 1911 builders out there
-the 1911 has a crappy magazine. Glocks hold the top round allmost completely inline with the barrel, but 1911 rounds have to travel up a much greater distance, and that's only if they get past the nosediveing mag problem.

That being said. If Pincus is still teaching a year from now. I'm game. My Dan Wesson Valor has been extremely reliable. Easy the most reliable 1911 I've ever shot. I'd put it up against a EB, W, or LB any day.

And the safety is a non issue. Same manual of arms as my AR15. But many don't under stand....that the 1911 safety has the same manual of arms as your finger on the trigger of the Glock. If it's ok for your trigger finger to be on the trigger, then off safe is ok. And vice versa.

A Dan Wesson ECO ain't hardly a 1911 anymore with that odd bull barrel. Those seem reliable. My only concern is ammo (Federal seems to be the best plinking ammo) and magazines (Wilson and Tripp).

But I've taken my Valor apart again for some custom work, and I'm in no hurry to finish. (sights, custom finish, pro test shoot and accurizing) But when it's done I think I'll email that trainer and take him up on that offer. By the time I get it done I'll be overdo for some training anyways. And some free training would be sweet! If any 1911 is capable of passing that test, mine is.

 

[Nuclear]

Weird, I have friends with subcompact 1911's that just run. Don't know what they may have done to them, other than replacing a grip safety with a more comfortable one.

I have a full sized Sig GSR 1911 that finally needed an external extractor replaced after about 20k rounds. You know, one of the early ones that reportedly had all those problems. Maybe I'll take Rob up on his generous offer.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I have a completely stock Colt Officers ACP that has never had a FTF, FTE, or any problem in the 25+ years I have owned and been shooting it. Granted, I have never competed with it or trained with it and shot a couple thousand rounds a day with it.

Maybe that's the issue. Not so much reliability as not being able to shoot hundreds of rounds filthy dirty and fast without a malfunction?

I don't know about that but I'm tempted to give it a whirl.

Voodoo

 

[mes228]

1911

There are exceptions in everything. I have several 1911's that are reliable and accurate. However, overall Pincus is right. I carry a plastic pistol. I have several plastic pistols of various brands that I would carry before I would carry a 1911.
I've had many 1911's that jammed on occasion. I've never had a Glock (several), H&K (several), CZ 75 P07 Duty (two), XD (several) Sigs (several) etc.etc.etc. In fact I've owned many more reliable plastic guns than 1911's. I also like the weight and capacity of plastic pistols for carry.

I love 1911's for the aesthetics, the accuracy, the triggers, the ease of shooting them accurately, the quality and heft of steel, etc.etc. And shoot them a lot at the range. But I carry plastic as the only thing that really means anything is "does it work, any time, all the time?". Just my opinion and yours may be different.

 

[mavracer]

Maybe that's the issue. Not so much reliability as not being able to shoot hundreds of rounds filthy dirty and fast without a malfunction?

He's not just banking on the gun malfunctioning but that 1500 rounds and 12 hours in you'll have a brain fart and forget to manipulate the thumb safety.

 

[tarosean]

Interestingly enough....

Here is a recent quote from another trainer (swiped from another forum).

My personal experience mirrors his. Lots of people seem to suffer from malfunction amnesia though....

And fwiw, my biggest realization wasn't that the 1911 was awesome (apologies to all). It was that most of the other guns I see week in and week out in classes -- guns that are supposed to be so much better & more reliable than the 1911 like Glocks and M&Ps -- weren't really as reliable as a lot of us had convinced ourselves. Do a lot of 1911 shooters have mechanical issues with their guns during a 1,200rd 2-day class? Yup. But so do a lot of <insert favorite polymer gun here> shooters.

If you're going to need to replace half the parts to get the gun running, and you're going to replace another half dozen parts to customize/ergonomic-ize the gun to your taste, how is that different than the alleged issues with a 1911?

 

[9mmepiphany]

you'll have a brain fart and forget to manipulate the thumb safety.

If you're going to carry a 1911...I did as a duty gun...you should have ingrained wiping off the thumb safety as the muzzle rotates onto the target. I've carried pistols without thumb safeties for years...SIG, Glock, M&P, Kahr...and my thumb still sweeps the area, where thumb safety would be, during my presentation.

Sweeping the thumb safety off should be part of your subconscious pattern when presenting the gun from the holster. When you remove the gun from the holster and do not intend to fire...stowing/cleaning/administrative loading...it should be a conscious action to not thumb down the safety.

If you forget to disengage the thumb safety during a defensive drill, you either need to practice more or pick another platform for your carry gun

 

[mavracer]

If you forget to disengage the thumb safety during a defensive drill, you either need to practice more or pick another platform for your carry gun

So if you're not perfect, you should practice, Well no S@*&.
I guess I should have added every possible shooter induced malfunction possible in my post to eliminate nit picking my one possible scenario.

 

[Derek Zeanah]

I'm far from the most experienced poster here, but since our Gunsite trip was mentioned I thought I'd speak up.

I think the 1911 is a fine handgun, and I'm convinced that a good version will run well. I bought a $550 1911, shot 50 rounds before boxing it up and taking it to Gunsite, then ran it dirty most of the class. 1,200 rounds with no failures that weren't operator-induced isn't bad, really. (Yes, I added 6 drops of CLP, but I couldn't help myself. I'm not sure the pistol needed it.)

There are some caveats about the platform, however:

• Yes, there's an external safety that needs to be disengaged before firing. You should train to do so -- it's second nature for most of us, and is just part of the draw stroke. It works. It's got some advantages.
• Magazines matter. We ran 5 different magazine types, marked for testing, and none of them failed on us. All were high quality though. And I should note that base pads make a difference, and if you're going to use them or not then do so consistently. Speed reloads in training where ~ 20 magazines have base pads and two don't may mean that you don't seat those 2 consistently. Pick a style and stick to it.
• We had something like 25 people on the line, with all sorts of pistols, and none had any real problems except one, which had to go to the gunsmith. In that case it was a Ruger rep with an interim model of their 1911 (the final design wasn't yet finished) and a spring wasn't to spec.
• The 1911 is a product of another age, where labor was cheap and automation was expensive. It's meant to be made by real people, and they aren't all as consistent as we might have liked. We ran STI guns with no issue, Tang's gun was awesome, my Rock Island was perfect throughout the class, but another Philippine 1911 I brought never finished a single magazine without a malfunction. (The factory will fix/replace it free of charge and has a lifetime guarantee on it, but I haven't sent it off yet. Not sure what I'm waiting for.) If you're going to use a pistol for anything other than plinking, then test it with the ammo you intend to use. This goes for any gun, not just 1911's.
• Likewise, train to deal with failures. They happen. Sometimes it's ammo, sometimes it's because the environment has entered your firearm or magazine and causes a problem, sometimes it's the gun, and sometimes it's just bad luck. If you get a malfunction you should be able to clear it and get the gun back in action without any/much thought. That's just basic competence.

I like the 1911, and I think they run well. They're not as tolerant of abuse as some, but a pair of them ran 6,000 rounds each without cleaning and without failure way back at the beginning of the last century before they were adopted by the military. If yours isn't running well, either there's something wrong with it, or there's something wrong with you.

Both types of problems can be corrected.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I guess I should have added every possible shooter induced malfunction possible in my post to eliminate nit picking my one possible scenario.

In the OP, the user induced malfunction concerned the thumb safety. Your post mentioned the same. I don't think it is nit picking to stay on track with the subject of the OP.

Name one that shouldn't be sub-conscious before you start carrying that gun for defensive purposes. Name one that is possible with a 1911 that isn't with a Glock or M&P.

Perfection isn't possible, but to blindly/knowingly accept less in a defensive firearm is setting yourself up for failure

 

[Master Blaster]

So let me get this straight he is offering a financial incentive to attendees of his class to bring a gun he knows will malfunction. He must be a great instructor.!!!!

 

[mavracer]

Name one that is possible with a 1911 that isn't with a Glock or M&P.

Grip safety

 

[Deaf Smith]

There are exceptions in everything. I have several 1911's that are reliable and accurate. However, overall Pincus is right. I carry a plastic pistol. I have several plastic pistols of various brands that I would carry before I would carry a 1911.
I've had many 1911's that jammed on occasion. I've never had a Glock (several), H&K (several), CZ 75 P07 Duty (two), XD (several) Sigs (several) etc.etc.etc. In fact I've owned many more reliable plastic guns than 1911's. I also like the weight and capacity of plastic pistols for carry.

I love 1911's for the aesthetics, the accuracy, the triggers, the ease of shooting them accurately, the quality and heft of steel, etc.etc. And shoot them a lot at the range. But I carry plastic as the only thing that really means anything is "does it work, any time, all the time?". Just my opinion and yours may be different.

Pretty much the same experience as I have.

Deaf

 

[Teachu2]

I have three 1911-based guns that have proven highly reliable: a Series 70 Colt Govt; a Series 80 Colt stainless Govt; and a LB SRP. All have been flawless in their current configurations, with the Baer being a plesant surprise - that is one TIGHT pistol.

I would take a Glock to training over any of my 1911s, because I carry the Glocks, but it would be tempting to take a 1911 just to prove him wrong....

 

[9mmepiphany]

Grip safety

While I'd say that is something that should also be part of the subconscious when carrying a 1911, I'm sure that is why he recommends against this also.

This is an additional factor when considering what not to take to a class. Gripping a "bit off", too high, or having a overly sensitive grip safety can really ruin your shot

 

[9mmepiphany]

So let me get this straight he is offering a financial incentive to attendees of his class to bring a gun he knows will malfunction.

No, he's challenging you to prove that your 1911 won't malfunction

 

[hemiram]

The only 1911's I've seen that didn't have some sort of issue, even a minor one, are ones that were older and rattled like crazy. A friend has his grandfather's old gun from the 30's, not much blue left, and a little pitted, and if you shake it, it rattles, a lot. It shoots great though. No limp wristing nonsense like some of his "nice" 1911's have. No feed issues, no jams, it just shoots away.

Myself, I've had two 1911's, and I'm done with them. I only have one .45ACP gun, a S&W 4506, it hasn't missed a beat. If I want to buy another .45ACP gun, a 1911 is not on my list.

 

[atomd]

I think part of the problem is what people consider to be quality and what people associate cost versus reliability with. It's not about the cost of it either. Just because you bought an $1100 Kimber at Cabelas doesn't mean you bought the most reliable gun on the planet because you spent $1100 on it. Cutting the barrel in half on a 1911 doesn't mean it's going to work the same as it did when it was full length either. There's a lot more to the equation with any 1911 let alone a compact model.

 

[Cranky CJ]

I think I'd take him up on his offer with my $369 Rock Island Armory .45. It has been years and thousands of rounds of stuff I've loaded that its had any kind of 'didn't go bang" issue. Fact is, since I've started loading for it, its never failed to go bang.

In fairness, my XD9 has NEVER failed to go bang either. Confidence level with that gun is 100%.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Let us know how it goes when you complete the class

 

[Quack]

3 days, 2000rds, no cleaning, no extra lube, no malfunctions.

In the same class, there were malfunctions on XDM's, Sigs, HK, 1911, M&P, Beretta and Glocks. There was not a single platform that had a flawless gun, well except for the 2011 (maybe). Costa used one (STI Tactical 4.0) for 2 days, another student used a 2011 (Nighthawk) on 1-2 days, and i let another student borrow my STI Tactical 4.15 after one of her 1911 went down. I can't say if the others ran the 2011 if they would've been trouble free, but they performed great.

Here's some photo's of mine after the 3 days.

 

[mavracer]

No, he's challenging you to prove that your 1911 won't malfunction

Not entirely true since he includes shooter malfunctions.
My question if he calls it a malfunction to reholster a 1911 without engaging the manual safety then how do Glocks pass. Since it's arguably safer to holster a 1911 than it is a Glock.

 

[9mmepiphany]

My question if he calls it a malfunction to reholster a 1911 without engaging the manual safety then how do Glocks pass. Since it's arguably safer to holster a 1911 than it is a Glock.

I would propose that it is only a malfunction is you have a ND while holstering.

I would also say that the relative safety of holstering the two examples is completely dependent on technique and has nothing to do with the platforms...for either to experience a ND would require something to enter the trigger guard