1911 vs Revolver
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David E
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For me, there are more factors at play that must be addressed before I decided which gun.
What load for each? .38 130 grain FMJ or .357 Federal 125 grain JHP? 230 ball or 230 Gold Dot?
What state of readiness is allowed for the 1911? Anything less than Condition One is unacceptable.
Can I load the 8-rd mag to capacity? Or can I only load 5?
If I could set up either one the way I want, it'd be the 1911.
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What load for each? .38 130 grain FMJ or .357 Federal 125 grain JHP? 230 ball or 230 Gold Dot?
What state of readiness is allowed for the 1911? Anything less than Condition One is unacceptable.
Can I load the 8-rd mag to capacity? Or can I only load 5?
If I could set up either one the way I want, it'd be the 1911.
.
BSA1
member
Alas.
The Art of The Revolver is being quickly lost to the siren song of the semi-automatic. Features such as "acceptable combat accuracy" and the ability to fire 24 - 45 missiles rapidly as possible somewhere in the general area of the target are promoted as a improvement over a more accurate revolver and a trained marksman behind the trigger.
The Art of The Revolver is being quickly lost to the siren song of the semi-automatic. Features such as "acceptable combat accuracy" and the ability to fire 24 - 45 missiles rapidly as possible somewhere in the general area of the target are promoted as a improvement over a more accurate revolver and a trained marksman behind the trigger.
David E
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Don't know why every revolver enthusiast thinks anyone using a semi-auto is untrained and can only "spray and pray"....
Rapid hits, regardless of which platform launched the bullet, is the goal of any gunman worthy of the name.
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orionengnr
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Which one do you shoot better?
That should be the deciding factor.
Either will do its job if you do yours.
That should be the deciding factor.
Either will do its job if you do yours.
Deaf Smith
Member
How well do you shoot your .357?
How well do you shoot a 1911 .45?
See that is the real question.
Many a top lawman packed revolvers even till the 70s when semi-autos were well represented.
You need to go to the range and shoot both.
Which ever one you get better and faster hits at reasonable ranges, with what is in the gun, is what matters most.
Both shoot top rounds. The .357 is a good one, and so is the .45 ACP.
Deaf
Carsten, the "reloading in front of the bad guys" scene you describe is funny and belongs in a movie.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
My opinion is every gun is a tradeoff and there are few absolutes that really make that much of a difference for most people.
The first clue that people are more concerned with their opinion than what really matters is when they start tossing around words and phrases such as "outdated" and "need to buy". They're the kind of people who get the words "want" and "need" confused a lot.
Are you happy with what you have?
Are you proficient with what you have?
Does what you have do the job for you?
If the answers to these questions (and other similarly worded questions) is "yes", then what you have is perfectly satisfactory for YOU.
And in the end, that's all that really matters.
So bugger 'em if they don't like it!
Sigh, another "how many pins can dance on the head of an angel" thread.
It's really more about software than hardware. Being able to use your gun effectively and efficiently is more important than what the gun is. Any reliable, reasonably accurate, quality gun firing a cartridge of consequence will do -- if you have mastered it.
Pick a good gun you can manage. Then train with it and practice with it. The choice of gun will not make up for a lack of training and practice. And with training, practice and proficiency a lot of guns will be suitable.
It's really more about software than hardware. Being able to use your gun effectively and efficiently is more important than what the gun is. Any reliable, reasonably accurate, quality gun firing a cartridge of consequence will do -- if you have mastered it.
Pick a good gun you can manage. Then train with it and practice with it. The choice of gun will not make up for a lack of training and practice. And with training, practice and proficiency a lot of guns will be suitable.
Lucky Derby
Member
Having worked armed security for way to many years, I can tell you that I would be equally comfortable with either one. I have carried both at different times, both as a security officer and for civilian CCW.
When I was the Chief of Security for a casino, had 12 armed S/Os working under me. One of them carried a S&W M15, like he had been carrying since his days as a USAF Security Police Officer during the Vietnam War. He was quite a good shot with that K38 Combat Masterpiece.
The young guys would rib and tease him about it. So I swaped my auto (An XD .45 Tactical) for a wheelgun to show him my support. I didn't get much teasing about it, being the Chief.
In the right hands, a revolver is every bit as effective as an auto.
Carry what you are comfortable with.
When I was the Chief of Security for a casino, had 12 armed S/Os working under me. One of them carried a S&W M15, like he had been carrying since his days as a USAF Security Police Officer during the Vietnam War. He was quite a good shot with that K38 Combat Masterpiece.
The young guys would rib and tease him about it. So I swaped my auto (An XD .45 Tactical) for a wheelgun to show him my support. I didn't get much teasing about it, being the Chief.
In the right hands, a revolver is every bit as effective as an auto.
Carry what you are comfortable with.
JohnhenrySTL
Member
I have never owned a 1911. I have auto loaders and revolvers. I like them both. Here lately I have been having more fun shooting my revolvers. I will say this about auto shooting buddies of mine, they will pick up my revolers and shoot them more accurately than they do their autos, then tell me on the ride home, "I like revolvers I just dont shoot them well." I will never understand it.
I am not a security guard or a cop, but I think a revolver would be just fine for duty.
I am not a security guard or a cop, but I think a revolver would be just fine for duty.
Dnaltrop
Member
My Sheriff great-uncle carried a .38 with 158gr SWC, and a Star 9mm in his later years that appeared to move from BUG, to Primary duty.
He is the one who gifted our beloved Victory Model 10, and my god that man could shoot anything you handed him, but He was in love with that little Star.
Personally, I prefer a Revolver as primary, usually a .45 Colt Blackhawk, (I practice often, usually with wax rounds)., and a Semi as backup, but that's one of the only Nice things about being 6'5", the ability to carry at least 2 of just about anything I can comfortably hold, and conceal them well.
Tonight however I mixed it up with the Wife's 1911 in a shoulder rig, and the M&P IWB. Her Range Officer is a sleek little thing, just doesn't feel as good as the Blackhawk.
What I really need to do is get a second Blackhawk, and carry one on each side in the shoulder rig.
Do what feels right, Neighbor.. Just keep an open mind to options as they come up.
He is the one who gifted our beloved Victory Model 10, and my god that man could shoot anything you handed him, but He was in love with that little Star.
Personally, I prefer a Revolver as primary, usually a .45 Colt Blackhawk, (I practice often, usually with wax rounds)., and a Semi as backup, but that's one of the only Nice things about being 6'5", the ability to carry at least 2 of just about anything I can comfortably hold, and conceal them well.
Tonight however I mixed it up with the Wife's 1911 in a shoulder rig, and the M&P IWB. Her Range Officer is a sleek little thing, just doesn't feel as good as the Blackhawk.
What I really need to do is get a second Blackhawk, and carry one on each side in the shoulder rig.
Do what feels right, Neighbor.. Just keep an open mind to options as they come up.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
Wouldnt even wanna guess a man's, or woman's, main weapon of choice if they carry a N frame as a BUG.
Well, no need to guess since I suggested a 5" N frame as a primary carry!
Actually, other than the cylinder that revolver isn't all that large and like said above, it's easily carry in the pocket of a pair of overalls.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Yep. There seems to be odd notion that the "moment of truth" will involve a running gunfight against a dozen assailants, with the brave defender flanking the opposition, reloading on the run, and generally staying in the fight until they're all down or abandoning the field in terror after his aggressive, deadly counterattack...and prevailing because of his superior skills and steely determination.
This has led to ordinary people walking around with a primary weapon...at least two spare magazines...a backup gun...and a tactical folding knife, just in case he runs out of ammo and has to go hand to hand when it gets really ugly.
Squeaky Wheel
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I know what you're thinking.
Master Blaster
Member
Most real life gun fights involve 4 shots or less.
I shoot my N frame revolvers a little better than my 1911s at 25 yards. Up close my hk usp holds more rounds as does my glock 30. I think accuracy and confidence are most important. You would not be under gunned with an 8 shot .357, if you shoot it well you are good and mooclips make for very fast reloads.
I shoot my N frame revolvers a little better than my 1911s at 25 yards. Up close my hk usp holds more rounds as does my glock 30. I think accuracy and confidence are most important. You would not be under gunned with an 8 shot .357, if you shoot it well you are good and mooclips make for very fast reloads.
BSA1
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1911Tuner,
You forgot the high intensity flashlight. ;-)
You forgot the high intensity flashlight. ;-)
David E
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4 shots? Please cite your source.
Most people that say they "shoot revolvers well" typically shoot them single action only, usually slow-fire. As soon as they attempt the same accuracy level DA, the realization starts to hit them.
Wouldn't they also hold more rounds at 25 yds?
.
I have a Smith 586 that I regularly shoot IDPA with, and I have no trouble keeping up with everyone else (I'm the only wheelgunner), and the only reason I don't carry it, is I don't want anything to happen to it, too much sentimental value. The gun you carry is the one that gets beat to heck, gets lost if you're in a bad accident, or gets taken by the cops if you have to use it; even if everything works out you probably won't ever get your gun back . I would hate to lose that revolver....
. I would hate to lose that revolver....Stress_Test
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LOL! This pretty much sums it up!
It probably doesn't help that the big name shooting schools are set up this way, for that kind of scenario. (I'm thinking about the MagPul videos I've seen, but it seems that GunSight and others are similar).
Doesn't seem realistic outside of a war zone. (though to be fair, sometimes those schools are training actual soldiers and cops)
Deaf Smith
Member
As for number of shots fired, at least by police:
"- The 21 lone officers fired 57 shots, 2.7, on average. The 22 who fired as part of a group shot 129 times, averaging 5.9."
http://www.theppsc.org/Archives/DF_Articles/Files/Oregon/92-Oregonian_Study.htm
"The average number of shots fired by individual officers in an armed
confrontation was between two and three rounds. The two to three rounds per
incident remained constant over the years covered by the report. It also
substantiates an earlier study by the L.A.P.D. (1967) which found that 2.6
rounds per encounter were discharged."
http://www.virginiacops.org/Articles/Shooting/Combat.htm
But that was in 67, when revolvers were king.
Turns out the actual percentage is a higher now, 7 rounds per incident. And this is after the NYPD went to semi-automatics (and higher round count per shooting.)
http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/SOP9/1991R.htm
http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/SOP9/1992R.htm
http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/SOP9/2000.htm
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_planning/AFDR200920101101.pdf
Deaf
"- The 21 lone officers fired 57 shots, 2.7, on average. The 22 who fired as part of a group shot 129 times, averaging 5.9."
http://www.theppsc.org/Archives/DF_Articles/Files/Oregon/92-Oregonian_Study.htm
"The average number of shots fired by individual officers in an armed
confrontation was between two and three rounds. The two to three rounds per
incident remained constant over the years covered by the report. It also
substantiates an earlier study by the L.A.P.D. (1967) which found that 2.6
rounds per encounter were discharged."
http://www.virginiacops.org/Articles/Shooting/Combat.htm
But that was in 67, when revolvers were king.
Turns out the actual percentage is a higher now, 7 rounds per incident. And this is after the NYPD went to semi-automatics (and higher round count per shooting.)
http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/SOP9/1991R.htm
http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/SOP9/1992R.htm
http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/SOP9/2000.htm
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_planning/AFDR200920101101.pdf
Deaf
RetiredUSNChief
Member
If so, then it's even more interesting that it doesn't apply to law enforcement as well, hmmm?
In a straight shootout, I think the revolver-1911 comparison is one to one. I would suggest, however, the proficiency ceiling for combat reloading is significantly lower when talking magazines. Note, I'm not saying you can't match a 1911's reload speed, just that there is longer, more intensive learning curve to get to that same point.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Yep. Most of'em seem to focus on the shooting and ignore the most important aspects of self-defense...like how to avoid the fight instead of encouraging them to ignore the red flags that something is about to go wrong...and encouraging them to stay in the fight instead of getting out of it.
i.e. The best way to survive a gunfight is to not get into one, and...failing that...getting out of it as quickly as possible. To effect a fighting retreat instead of engaging in "combat" or whatever the catch-phrase of the week is.
The reason that the gun is there is to get you home alive and unscathed if at all possible...not to take out the bad guys. At least, that's why mine is there. If I have to shoot, my primary defensive system...my "Spidey Sense"... has failed. My only option at that point is to shoot and scoot. Once ;t's gotten that far...as long as I'm not bleeding or dead...whether my attacker is on the ground or in the wind is of no consequence.
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